testosterone boosters and you

genepool · 03-02-2006, 07:57 PM

here is the first half of an article I wrote on another forum about testosterone boosters. I am still working on research for the second half..

Ok here it is, the product of a many hours of research. Some of this is going to come from a controlled experiment I performed on myself, some is going to come from published medical journals. There have been many, many questions about the efficacy of testosterone boosters on this forum, so I took it upon myself to do some research and I have come up with what I consider pretty definitive answers about them. But first lets start with some science about how testosterone production works.

Both men and women produce testosterone naturally, but here lets primarily focus upon the men. Endogenous (made inside the body) testosterone production is predominantly a result of, and governed by, the HPTA (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes-Axis). It all begins in your head in the hypothalamus when it releases GnRH (also known as LH-releasing hormone).

The small amount of GnRH then makes its way to the pituitary gland to tell it to kick out two other hormones called LH (Luteinizing Hormone) and FSH (Follicle-Stimulating Hormone). Okay, LH and FSH then take a trip via the vascular system to the testes and make contact with the Leydig cells and Sertoli cells …which results in testosterone synthesis and sperm production respectively.

The amount of GnRH, LH and FSH produced regulates the amount of testosterone, androstenediol and DHEA your body produces…or not. If the HPTA produces supraphysiological amounts of GnRH, LH and FSH, it actually also produces more performance enhancing goodies like testosterone, androstenediol, and DHEA by way of overcompensation.

Like all things we really like in life, there is a series of checks and balances that keep things in control and limit the amounts of good stuff we can have. In the case of HPTA-function and optimized testosterone production, it is due to 2 primary negative feed-back loops. High estrogen levels are not the sole propriety of women, men produce it too, and in most cases, there is way too much in any man’s system than nature meant there to be. This also helps to explain way males produce less testosterone and sperm today than they did only 2 generations ago.

This is due significantly to un-natural (exogenous) exposure to the overabundance of plant-derived phytoestrogens (such as those found in soy products) and xenoestrogens in plastics and herbicides today.

Natural (endogenous) estrogen is predominantly made in the male body from the aromatization of endogenous (made inside the body) androgens into estrogens. This is the responsibility of an enzyme called aromatase that is present pretty much everywhere in the body…even the brain around the hypothalamus (remember that).

When too much estrogen interacts with the estrogen receptors of the hypothalamus, there is a negative feed-back loop that tells the gland that there must be too much testosterone as well. The result is an unhealthy reduction, or even shut-down, of the HPTA. But it gets worse…

The hypothalamus also has lots of androgen receptors for sensing the level of testosterone and other androgens circulating in the body. When too many androgen receptors of the hypothalamus become activated, there is a decrease or even total shut-down in GnRH release. This means that the testes pretty much have nothing to do because the lack of GnRH release also means no LH or FSH release.

So the end result is your testes have no reason to produce testosterone or sperm…and no reason to optimize muscular activities, recovery or have sex.

Normal total testosterone production for a healthy male is about 77-100mg per week but some AAS users push the levels into the 500-2000mg/week plus area. As a result of all of this excess testosterone floating around the body, there is a lot of aromatization to estrogens and an overabundance of androgen receptors of the hypothalamus being over-stimulated. The outcome is obviously the loss of testicular function due to both negative feed-back loops occurring.

Many AAS users know that by decreasing the amount of circulatory estrogen, they are also able to somewhat decrease HPTA down-regulation. Post-cycle AAS therapy, in most cases, includes something to decrease estrogen levels and activity, and some other drug to replace LH. If done correctly the end result again is an increase in actual natural testosterone product 1-2 times above normal for a brief period.

So bearing that in mind, i.e. the minimum amount of testosterone that a cycle of steroid entails compared to endogenous production.(500mg vs. 77-100mg). Lets now look at some boosters and the level to which they raise testosterone. And why their boost isn’t anabolically significant.

Herbal Boosters

Tribulus Terrestris - Active Chemical and Mechanism of Action - Protodioscin is a phytochemical agent derived from Tribulus terrestris L plant, it works by the conversion of protodioscine to DHEA (De-Hydro-Epi-Androsterone). Preliminary observations suggest that Tribulus terrestris L grown on different soils does not consistently produce the active component Protodioscin. It has been suggested that this increase in DHEA is responsible for the increase in libido and erectile function. It also improves the spermatogram it increases the ejaculate volume by 1 - 2 ml, enhances the spermatozoa concentration by 30 millions/ml, increases the mobile spermatozoa by 30%. Which would be demonstrated by an increase in the size of the testicles in some cases, this however does not correlate with an increase in testosterone production.

I managed to find two studies that demonstrated that Tribulus has NO EFFECT whatsoever on testosterone production in young males. The first study took 21 young males between the ages of 20-36 and split them into 3 groups; 2 experimental and 1 control group. The two control groups were given two separate dosages, one double the other, and the control group received a placebo. A baseline testosterone, androstenedione, and luteinizing hormone were drawn 24 hrs before dosage. The for 4 weeks blood levels were drawn at certain intervals. At the end of the 4 week study there was no significant difference between the two experimental groups and the control group. In other words a zero percent increase in any one part of the HPTA.

The second study measured the effect of a combination of several testosterone boosters - 300mg androstenedione, 150mg DHEA, 750mg Tribulus, 625mg Chrysin(a phytoestrogen by the way) 300mg indole-3-carbinol(an estrogen modulator), and 540mg of Saw Palmetto. The control group was again given a placebo. Each group received daily doses and trained 3 days a week for 8 weeks. Serum levels of testosterone and androstenedione were taken at weeks 2,5,and 8. The results were not really all too shocking. Serum levels of andro increased but levels of free and total testosterone remained unchanged, however serum estrone/estradiol levels were markedly increased in the experimental group. Neither group surpassed the other in terms of strength gains, end gains were approximately equal.

"Tribulus will help you in the sperm production department, but it isn’t going to do anything in terms of anabolism or testosterone boosting."

Ok here is another supplement that has been bilking men out of 99!!! Yes 99 dollars a bottle. It is called Gamma-O. I am sure you have heard the ads on the radio for this revolutionary product.. Well.. No surprise.. IT DOESN’T WORK EITHER!!!
Gamma-O’s active ingredient is gamma-oryzanol. Which is extracted from rice bran oil. It has been used in Japan for heart burn and other digestive issues. Well I again found two studies(the only two legitimately published ones I could find) that show that Gamma-O is not only ineffective at testosterone boosting, but it MAY ACTUALLY DECREASE TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION.

Here is an excerpt from one study on rats:

“Intravenous or subcutaneous injections of gamma-oryzanol in rats have been shown to suppress luteinizing hormone release, reduce growth hormone synthesis and release, and increase release of the catecholamines, dopamine and norepinephrine, in the brain. Although it hasn't been directly measured, this metabolic milieu, if accurate, may actually reduce testosterone production”

And here is a study on humans:

“No differences between groups were observed for measures of circulating concentrations of hormones (testosterone, cortisol, estradiol, growth hormone, insulin, beta-endorphin), minerals (calcium, magnesium), binding protein (albumin), or blood lipids (total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol)."

Resting cardiovascular variables decreased similarly for both groups. These data suggest that 9 weeks of 500 mg.day-1 of gamma-oryzanol supplementation does not influence performance or related physiological parameters in moderately weight-trained males.

Again bottom line Gamma-O does not work, save your money.

Fenugreek - WOW!!! I cant believe they are actually putting this in ANY supplement, testosterone booster or not. I found a few negative articles on this one…One study showed that it stopped the conversion of T4 to T3, which means a decrease in metabolism. However on the upside it does appear to have a positive effect in diabetics and Glucose management. And one other study on rabbits showed it DECREASED their fertility. In male rabbits it decreased the weight of the testes by HALF! And Androgenic hormones were decreased by half as well. Those were the only two studies I could find that even mentioned fenugreek and androgenic hormones.

genepool · 03-02-2006, 07:58 PM

Other Herbal Boosters

Tongkat Ali - Otherwise know as E. Longifolia Jack, seems to be a potent sexual enhancer. I have found a few studies calling it herbal Viagra, and that it promotes increased libido and sexual arousal in aged mice or castrated mice. However I cant find a single study that linked it to increased testosterone production. The jury is still out on this one. I think this one may be buried in supplements to give the effect of increased testosterone(increased libido, sexual arousal). I will wait and see til further studies are published.

Red Clover Extract - All I could find on this one was that it is used by post menopausal women because it exerts an estrogenic type effect, to help alleviate hot flashes and other symptoms of menopause. But most studies point that this is pretty useless in women. Verdict - No use in Testosterone Boosting.

Chrysin - Yet another failed idea in the test booster department. It was originally hailed as an Aromatase inhibitor, but it turns out it exerts almost no influence whatsoever on the aromatase enzyme In Vivo. Well it did in test tubes, but it is unable to enter into cells to exert this influence.. So again.. It fizzled.

This is most of the ingredients in Testosterone boosters that I could find.. At least in the herbal sense. They are found in products such as Tribex, Gamma-O, Forza-T, T-bombs, etc. As u can see there is really no supplement that has any kind of proven effect in increasing natural testosterone levels. The next installment of this article will go into Mineral test boosters, such as ZMA, and hormonal test boosters such as 6-OXO, DHEA, ALRI Ultra Hot, etc.

[References]

1) Effects of anabolic precursors on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in young men. Int. journal sport nutr. Exerc metab 200 sept;10(3)340-59

2)Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus Terrestris extract (Protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats. Life Sci 2002 Aug9;71(12):1385-96

3)The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men. J. Ethnopharmacol 2005 Oct3;101(1-3):319-23

4)Phytochemicals and the breakthrough of traditional herbs in the management of sexual dysfunctions.

Adimoelja A.

School of medicine 'Hang Tuah' University, Teaching and Naval Hospital,Surabaya, Indonesia.

5)The effects of gamma-oryzanol supplementation during resistance exercise training. Int J Sport Nutr. 1997 Dec;7(4):318-29. Related Articles, Links

6)Gamma oryzanol-plant sterol supplementation: metabolic, endocrine, and physiologic effects Int J Sport Nutr. 1991 Jun;1(2):170-7

7)Inhibition of triiodothyronine production by fenugreek seed extract in mice and rats. Copyright 1999 Academic Press

Panda S, Tahiliani P, Kar A

8)Evaluation of the potential antifertility effect of fenugreek seeds in male and female rabbits.

Kassem A, Al-Aghbari A, Al-Habori M, Al-Mamary M

9)Effects of Eurycoma longifolia Jack (Tongkat Ali) on the initiation of sexual performance of inexperienced castrated male rats.

Ang HH, Cheang HS, Yusof AP.

10) Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats. Arch Pharm Res. 2001 Oct;24(5):437-40.

11) Seasonal Variation of Red Clover (Trifolium pratense L., Fabaceae) Isoflavones and Estrogenic Activity J Agric Food Chem. 2006 Feb 22;54(4):1277-1282

12) Effects of chrysin on urinary testosterone levels in human males J Med Food. 2003 Winter;6(4):387-90.

13) http://www.vrp.com/art/1208.asp

Outside backer · 03-02-2006, 08:40 PM

great fukin post rep for u

BillyB · 03-02-2006, 10:25 PM

Nice posting bro!

Skigazzi · 03-02-2006, 10:26 PM

Smart post.

Heres one I started, couple good studies on the aging male.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=717072

My conclusion is that there is no way to boost test outside of HRT (which really isnt boosting T, its replacing it) due to the myriad of checks and balances. If LH is elevated from "product 1", then the testes will produce more test, negatively affecting the LH, its a constant battle of ups and downs.

If SHBG is reduced, free test goes up, LH will go down (reducing the testes role, NOT a good thing), and free test is also metabolized quicker, reducing free test...

DHEA can be supplemented, but it too will act to suppress LH slightly...DHEA may be an OK alternative if one is not concerned with the benefits of testosterone coming from the conventional source.

Unless, there is a way to trick the body about 5 ways at the same time, the holy grail of natural LH / HPTA manipulation is a battle of losing trade offs and diminishing returns.

JoeyTS · 03-02-2006, 10:45 PM

Very good thread, thanks for putting it together.

Outside backer · 03-03-2006, 06:31 AM

waiting for next installment

buckwildx22 · 03-03-2006, 06:41 AM

great post! helped me decide a lot of things!!!
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hp/d200.html
is this any good?will it work? is it a steroid/legal? im 24 years old how many mgs should i be taking if i were to buy it ? i would be taking this w/ creatine no2 redline fish oils multivitamins and amino acids.... good combo?
thanks for all the info rep for u

resurrected · 03-03-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckwildx22

great post! helped me decide a lot of things!!!
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hp/d200.html
is this any good?will it work? is it a steroid/legal? im 24 years old how many mgs should i be taking if i were to buy it ? i would be taking this w/ creatine no2 redline fish oils multivitamins and amino acids.... good combo?
thanks for all the info rep for u

No DHEA does very little and is usually only good for those who are low in this. DHEA can also cause unwanted sides.

thepopo · 03-03-2006, 06:54 AM

Bodybuilding.com wouldn't sell anything illegal.

As was mentioned earlier, there's not much that supports DHEA as a quality booster of test. The only ways to truly boost endo test is through HCG (an exogenous hormone..) or an AI. Keep in mind that both should not be taken for long periods of time because you will have diminishing returns from them, and there are side effects that can occur with extensive usage.

buckwildx22 · 03-03-2006, 06:58 AM

sigh... im scared to take stuff now lol maybee i shoud just stick w/ wat i have already and just work out harder ? lower reps extra weight

johnnyironboard · 03-03-2006, 07:07 AM

Nice post. Trib is a scam.

Skigazzi · 03-03-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckwildx22

sigh... im scared to take stuff now lol maybee i shoud just stick w/ wat i have already and just work out harder ? lower reps extra weight

Your only 23...youd dont need any of this stuff (not that it works anyway).

Eat more, lift more, sleep better.

chainsaw · 03-03-2006, 06:30 PM

I would like to see you cover...
Cissus
USP's Powerfull (Muira Puama)
DIM
Calcium D-Glucarate
5,7 Dihydroxyflavone
Cindium Monnieri
Avena Sativa
Indole-3-Carbinol
Nettle Root
Dodder Seed

I imagine all the supplement companies on this website that sell herbal test boosters aren't too thirlled with this thread. I would like to see some of the companies (Sciavation, USP Labs, Get Diesel) all give an counter arguement.

resurrected · 03-03-2006, 09:08 PM

Indole-3-Carbinol
I can say this works very well. I have used it many times over and will still swear by it.
I was having estrogen related issues with my body, I used this after doing some research and found it to actually work. It controls estrogen ( it is to a weaker extent) but none the less it works good.

genepool · 03-03-2006, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chainsaw

I would like to see you cover...
Cissus
USP's Powerfull (Muira Puama)
DIM
Calcium D-Glucarate
5,7 Dihydroxyflavone
Cindium Monnieri
Avena Sativa
Indole-3-Carbinol
Nettle Root
Dodder Seed

I imagine all the supplement companies on this website that sell herbal test boosters aren't too thirlled with this thread. I would like to see some of the companies (Sciavation, USP Labs, Get Diesel) all give an counter arguement.

Most of them will be in the next installment. It takes quite a few hrs of reading abstracts to get all the info together, but I will be coverig them next time. thanks for the feedback.

clubchuck1 · 03-04-2006, 07:09 PM

Hope this doesn't bump me from the forums, BUT, the best way to boost your testosterone without supplements is to have an organism. Shoots the testosterone through the roof for several hours. I am convinced muscle building occurs with high testosterone and growth hormone levels.

johnnyironboard · 03-05-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubchuck1

I am convinced muscle building occurs with high testosterone and growth hormone levels.

I think you are correct.

c10d · 03-05-2006, 08:31 AM

Awesome post man. I myself think I have higher estrogen levels, well at the high end of the "normal" range because i have beento three endocrinologists for a slight case of gynecomastia and they said everything was in the normal range.

Is there any way to decrease estrogen levels naturally? Just by staying away from certain foods, or eating more of certain foods, etc? Or by certain activities/exercises which might stimulate different hormone responces? Or stress/anxiety? because i noticed im stressed out a lot.

Thanks to anyone that can help me out here, and once again awesome post. ++

resurrected · 03-05-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c10d

Awesome post man. I myself think I have higher estrogen levels, well at the high end of the "normal" range because i have beento three endocrinologists for a slight case of gynecomastia and they said everything was in the normal range.

Is there any way to decrease estrogen levels naturally? Just by staying away from certain foods, or eating more of certain foods, etc? Or by certain activities/exercises which might stimulate different hormone responces? Or stress/anxiety? because i noticed im stressed out a lot.

Thanks to anyone that can help me out here, and once again awesome post. ++

Yes there is and it is in broccolli.........
Indole-3- carbinol. Problem is you cannot get enough just by eating broccolli alone. The other problem is, this is not water soluble I remember reading. So one would need to use a supplement called Diindole Methane or DIM for short.

I read many studies ages back about this subject and did use it. I found it to work for me.

c10d · 03-05-2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resurrected

Yes there is and it is in broccolli.........
Indole-3- carbinol. Problem is you cannot get enough just by eating broccolli alone. The other problem is, this is not water soluble I remember reading. So one would need to use a supplement called Diindole Methane or DIM for short.

I read many studies ages back about this subject and did use it. I found it to work for me.

Thanks a lot man. Is this supplement Diindole Methane sold at vitamin shops and such?

And, since I'v had this slight case of gyno (just puffy nips really) i always worry about if i think my testosterone levels and estrogen levels are in check, and ALWAYS worry about how i look... Do you think constant worrying and stressing about stuff can cause higher estrogen levels and/or lower testosterone levels? My parents always say to me that i never give myself a break and i'm so hard on myself, maybe that has something to do with it?

resurrected · 03-05-2006, 09:41 AM

Lighten up on yourself. When you are young , you will have that layer of chest fat that appears to be Gyno related.
Stress can be a factor in this as well. I do not base my looks on someone elses opnions. I am who and what I am and if no one likes it.. well TB! You need to feel this way as well. We are not put here to please everyone. We are here to live OUR lives. Live it your way and don't be too overly concerned about what others see you as. There are true friends and false friends. You will find both types.
And Yes DIM can be bought at a store. Look at the package and see if it contains standardized Diindol methane.
You may also consider something like a cortisol reducer. Cortisol and stress go hand in hand. Cortisol can induce fat deposits in the body and make hard to get rid of.
REMEMBER you are young, and things change, so will you. I think alot of us has had the puffy nipple syndrome at one time or the other. And at 17 you are prime for it.

c10d · 03-05-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resurrected

Lighten up on yourself. When you are young , you will have that layer of chest fat that appears to be Gyno related.
Stress can be a factor in this as well. I do not base my looks on someone elses opnions. I am who and what I am and if no one likes it.. well TB! You need to feel this way as well. We are not put here to please everyone. We are here to live OUR lives. Live it your way and don't be too overly concerned about what others see you as. There are true friends and false friends. You will find both types.
And Yes DIM can be bought at a store. Look at the package and see if it contains standardized Diindol methane.
You may also consider something like a cortisol reducer. Cortisol and stress go hand in hand. Cortisol can induce fat deposits in the body and make hard to get rid of.
REMEMBER you are young, and things change, so will you. I think alot of us has had the puffy nipple syndrome at one time or the other. And at 17 you are prime for it.

I'll try to lighten up and take more of a "who gives a f*ck" attitude. I appreciate it man. Good thing we have people with serious replys on these forums like you, thanks again.

resurrected · 03-05-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c10d

I'll try to lighten up and take more of a "who gives a f*ck" attitude. I appreciate it man. Good thing we have people with serious replys on these forums like you, thanks again.

Anything for a fellow pennsylvanian.......

xburbx · 03-05-2006, 10:12 AM

I wonder if Chuch Diesel is going to add his 2 cents to this for DT

CHUCK DIESEL · 03-05-2006, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chainsaw

I imagine all the supplement companies on this website that sell herbal test boosters aren't too thirlled with this thread. I would like to see some of the companies (Sciavation, USP Labs, Get Diesel) all give an counter arguement.

I dont care.........alot of single ingredients have "research" that say they substance doesnt work..........including creatine.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=612113

(current formula)

This is PRE Diesel Test New Forumla.
Testosterone 23 nmol/L or 663ng/dl (5.0-25.0)
Free Testosterone 70 pmol/L (60.0-130.0)

This is AFTER Diesel Test new Formula. (28 days of use)
Testosterone 28 nmol/L or 806.4ng/dl (5.25.0 is ref range)
Free Testosterone 125 pmol/L (60.0-130.0 is ref range)

__________________

(first formula)

-----------START------------------DAY 25-------------------(+/-)

Prolactin-17.7 (2.5-17.0) Prolactin 10.6 -7.1 or -40%
Cortisol-21.4 (4.0-22.0) Cortisol 14.0 -7.4 or -35%
Estradiol-<20 (<57) Estradiol <15 -5 or -25%
FSH-2.1 (0.7-11.1) FSH-2.0 -0.1 or -4%
LH-3.5 (0.8-7.6) LH 2.3 -1.2 or -35%
TSH-3.65 (.45-4.50) TSH 2.79 -0.86 or -24%

Total Test. 373 (189-1111) Total Test. 485 + 30%
% of Free Test 2.29 (1.1-2.8) % Free Test 2.38 about same
Test, Free-85.5 (40.0-150) Test, Free 115.2 +35%

__________________

total test: 902 ng/DL vs. 820 ng/DL on Dec. 30th
free test: 3.85 ng/DL vs. 3.10 ng/DL on Dec. 30th

TOTAL TEST INCREASE: 10%
FREE TEST INCREASE: 24%

_________________

But that’s all "anecdotal" and not double blind.....in the dark........blabla so it doesn’t count right? It would only count if the test showed no increase………that’s how it works right?

WannaBbig! · 03-06-2006, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUCK DIESEL

I dont care.........alot of single ingredients have "research" that say they substance doesnt work..........including creatine.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=612113

(current formula)

This is PRE Diesel Test New Forumla.
Testosterone 23 nmol/L or 663ng/dl (5.0-25.0)
Free Testosterone 70 pmol/L (60.0-130.0)

This is AFTER Diesel Test new Formula. (28 days of use)
Testosterone 28 nmol/L or 806.4ng/dl (5.25.0 is ref range)
Free Testosterone 125 pmol/L (60.0-130.0 is ref range)

__________________

(first formula)

-----------START------------------DAY 25-------------------(+/-)

Prolactin-17.7 (2.5-17.0) Prolactin 10.6 -7.1 or -40%
Cortisol-21.4 (4.0-22.0) Cortisol 14.0 -7.4 or -35%
Estradiol-<20 (<57) Estradiol <15 -5 or -25%
FSH-2.1 (0.7-11.1) FSH-2.0 -0.1 or -4%
LH-3.5 (0.8-7.6) LH 2.3 -1.2 or -35%
TSH-3.65 (.45-4.50) TSH 2.79 -0.86 or -24%

Total Test. 373 (189-1111) Total Test. 485 + 30%
% of Free Test 2.29 (1.1-2.8) % Free Test 2.38 about same
Test, Free-85.5 (40.0-150) Test, Free 115.2 +35%

__________________

total test: 902 ng/DL vs. 820 ng/DL on Dec. 30th
free test: 3.85 ng/DL vs. 3.10 ng/DL on Dec. 30th

TOTAL TEST INCREASE: 10%
FREE TEST INCREASE: 24%

_________________

But that’s all "anecdotal" and not double blind.....in the dark........blabla so it doesn’t count right? It would only count if the test showed no increase………that’s how it works right?

Hey Chuck,

I'm 21 and would like to try a test-booster with my next cut, would it be worth it at my age? I always get a loss of libido when i cut would a test-booster like DT help?

Cheers mate, good choice on the creatine study. Just goes to show that sometimes it's better to get a consensus from people who've used products rather than flaming each other with studies.

CHUCK DIESEL · 03-06-2006, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannaBbig!

Hey Chuck,

I'm 21 and would like to try a test-booster with my next cut, would it be worth it at my age? I always get a loss of libido when i cut would a test-booster like DT help?

Cheers mate, good choice on the creatine study. Just goes to show that sometimes it's better to get a consensus from people who've used products rather than flaming each other with studies.

Just PM me, this inst a thread on DT per se and I dont want it to go the another direction from this person who started it trying to prove test boosters dont work. I like these kind of "nothing works" threads.

But quick reply.....I think at 21 and if a loss in libido is your concern go with Trib Test.

genepool · 03-06-2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUCK DIESEL

Just PM me, this inst a thread on DT per se and I dont want it to go the another direction from this person who started it trying to prove test boosters dont work. I like these kind of "nothing works" threads.

But quick reply.....I think at 21 and if a loss in libido is your concern go with Trib Test.

My main point on this thread, is not necessarily that they dont work, even tho that is a point in the arguement, its that they are not worth the money when u consider what u pay vs. what u gain. I mean look at the price. for the cheapest supplement for a months supply at a high end dose u are gonna pay somewhere between 40-80 dollars for a month. and what gains are u really gonna make? If someone has the right source they can get a full cycle of testosterone for that price and make much better gains than with tribulus or something similar. Not that i encourage steroid use. But since they always seem to be the benchmark to which alot of supplements are compared, I will follow the same route.

my issue is that so many young guys are looking for a legal alternate to steroids and are being led to believe that supplements like this are gonna provide that. Truth is that they arent. Even a single cycle of steroids doesnt provide great results. yes it helps, but it isnt miracle grow. It still takes a few cycles and lots of work for it to give the results most people are looking for. So for supplement companies to put this stuff out there and say u will get steroid like gains or gain this much or that much is false advertizing. and that is what I am pointing out. that these products fail to live up to claims.

and the results that u posted from your study are decent, but not really significant in terms of a study, like mine was in the same boat N=1(one person) and u didnt provide details as to time blood was drawn for each test, because testosterone levels can vary by a good margin between day and night. assuming all things are in check then yes it showed a significant change in levels, but how much of a difference do u really think it caused in the person's routine, taking out the placebo effect?

CHUCK DIESEL · 03-06-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genepool

I mean look at the price. for the cheapest supplement for a months supply at a high end dose u are gonna pay somewhere between 40-80 dollars for a month.

If someone has the right source they can get a full cycle of testosterone for that price and make much better gains than with tribulus or something similar.

Even a single cycle of steroids doesnt provide great results. yes it helps, but it isnt miracle grow. It still takes a few cycles and lots of work for it to give the results most people are looking for. So for supplement companies to put this stuff out there and say u will get steroid like gains or gain this much or that much is false advertizing. and that is what I am pointing out. that these products fail to live up to claims.

and the results that u posted from your study are decent, but not really significant in terms of a study, like mine was in the same boat N=1(one person) and u didnt provide details as to time blood was drawn for each test, because testosterone levels can vary by a good margin between day and night. assuming all things are in check then yes it showed a significant change in levels, but how much of a difference do u really think it caused in the person's routine, taking out the placebo effect?

DIESEL TEST is $45 or less a month.

Test isn’t $45 a month.

Of course you can get much better gains on steroids..........and 10X worse side effects.

It takes a few bottles and a lot of work for supplements to work also.

From the test consumers ran themselves before and after DIESEL TEST.......like I said, if the results were "no increase in free or total test" it would be no questions asked.

I linked the logs, read about their routine. With DIESEL TEST it was never an issue of "lets get blood work to prove it works." The consumers were loving the product (and yes there is about 2% that are non-responders but that maybe to stress, low fat intake, etc,) I just said it would be nice for some of you guys to get pre and post DIESEL TEST blood work done.

About the "steroid results ads" that’s most of the industry. We never claimed a natural test booster to increase test levels as high as synthetic test. Increases in Test do not always = increase in strength.