'Starting Strength' program questions

[Short One]

Hi those interested in reading.

I've been performing a beginner's version of the 5x5 for the past 8 weeks.
This revolves around 3 exercises, 3x a week. Note: This is not the intermediate version. It's the beginner's version.

Power Clean
Bench
Squat

Monday is heavy day
Wed is light day
Fri is medium day

This has been in combination with weighted crunches on Wed, and some DB curls on Fridays.
I've been increasing ok in strength, and would like to move onto 'Starting Strength' before moving onto the Intermediate version of Bill Starr's 5x5 program.
I could continue with this for a while, but I'm getting a little bored of it, and would like to incorporate the lifts outlined in the 'Starting Stength' program.
The program is outlined in the this post (rather than typing it all up again

Being that I live in Australia, I can't easily get a copy of Mark Rippetoe's book without having to pay as much as the book is worth in shipping costs.
I'm trying to find alternatives of getting a copy but wanted to get as much info in the meantime to potentially start in 2 weeks.

For those already doing this program, could you tell me:
- Do you ramp up like you do in the 5x5 program?. ie. Aim to reach your PR in wk5 or so?
- What do you do when you fail?. Do you reset much like 5x5?
- How are warm ups weights decided? How much do you use to warm up?

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions soon, but they're the main ones I have for now.

[Matta114]

- Do you ramp up like you do in the 5x5 program?. ie. Aim to reach your PR in wk5 or so?

Mark Rippetoe suggests increasing 5-10 pounds each week if u can. If you cant then use microplates to increase.

- What do you do when you fail?. Do you reset much like 5x5?

If you fail then u are either having a bad day, putting to much weight on (just use 2 microplates), or are more than 4 months in the program and ur progression is declining. If you fail simply do what u can and try again next week.

- How are warm ups weights decided? How much do you use to warm up?

I explained the whole warmup set thing in the writeup i wrote u linked in ur own thread Just go down to the wrmup section it explains it.

[Short One]

Thanks for the reply Matta114

- Do you ramp up like you do in the 5x5 program?. ie. Aim to reach your PR in wk5 or so?

Mark Rippetoe suggests increasing 5-10 pounds each week if u can. If you cant then use microplates to increase.

At the moment, my increases of 2.5% will be less than 5lbs (eg: current ATG squat is only 135.55lbs, which will be only ~3.5lbs.
The reason I ask this, is that I get conflicts in info.. One person says a percentage, and the other gives the 5-10lb range.

What I was asking was, do I just continue with the PRs that I've set with the current program?
Or do I aim to reach the same PR in 5 weeks from starting:
eg:
1 2 3 4 5
122.4948936 125.6357883 128.8572188 132.16125 135.55

- What do you do when you fail?. Do you reset much like 5x5?

If you fail then u are either having a bad day, putting to much weight on (just use 2 microplates), or are more than 4 months in the program and ur progression is declining. If you fail simply do what u can and try again next week.

So.. I take it easy if I do?. I suspect I just try the same weight again the next week and try try again.

- How are warm ups weights decided? How much do you use to warm up?

I explained the whole warmup set thing in the writeup i wrote u linked in ur own thread Just go down to the wrmup section it explains it.

I saw that there, but wasn't sure if that was for the deadlift (1 set of 5) or the usual 3x5. I can use that to work out the percentages but wanted to know the formula (if there is one)

[Matta114]

Mark Rippetoe SUGGESTS about 5lbs for the lower lifts and up to 10lbs for the higher lifts. But you cant always do that. If you cant even do 5lbs then use microplates.

The 2.5% is from 5x5 not from Rippetoe.. its just a suggested way to go about ur progression. Meaning try for more but if you cant then just increase by 2.5% and do that. If you cant do that then use the weight u used last week.

The warmups go like this, no specific formula;

2x5
1x5
1x3
1x2

Ramping towards ur working sets.

JUST AN EXAMPLE:

Bench Press

2x5xBar
1x5x100
1x3x130
1x2x150

Working sets at 180

OR if you are doing working sets at like 120 then do this

2x5xBar
1x3x75
1x2x105

120 Working sets

Theres no specific formula

[Matta114]

Ideally though its best to ramp up 30lbs and if u cant do that then take out the 1x5

[Short One]

Thanks again Matta114,
The confusion arises from the post that I refered to (which you posted) states:

Weight:

As for the weight, make sure that you use the SAME weight throughout the sets. For example if I do the first set if Squats with 200lbs then I do the other 2 sets of squats with 200lbs.

Every week make it a goal to increase each of your lifts by 2.5%. Meaning if I lifted 100lbs for my Bench Week 1 then Week 2 I would try for 102.5lbs. If I did 200lb Squats Week 1 I would try for 205lbs in Week 2. Sometimes you will be able to do more but don’t mess with your form just to lift more.

So naturally I thought this came from Rippetoe himself. Thanks for your input though.. I'll aim for 5lb increases, and if that's too much I'll opt for 2.5% as you suggest.

Thanks again for your replies. Appreciate it.

[Short One]

btw.. Just out of interest, is there anyone out there have a copy of the book who could tell me how much it weighs?
Weird question, I know, but would like to know upfront to know if I were to get a relative or someone to send it out.

[Matta114]

yah I thought of using the 2.5% as a goal for each time, but like I said do more if u can. What I did when I started lifting was increase 5-10 each time until I got hurt. So I think 2.5% is more ideal for each week. Although SHOOT for higher. And like I said do it as long as ur form stays good. If u can lift more at the cost of messing with the form, then dont lift more.

[all pro]

btw.. Just out of interest, is there anyone out there have a copy of the book who could tell me how much it weighs?
Weird question, I know, but would like to know upfront to know if I were to get a relative or someone to send it out.

Short One Starting strength is $30.00 but the shipping to Australia is $24.00 The web didn't say how much it weighed. Now if your bored with your program you can change the middle work out instead of doing powerclean, bench press and squat, change it to deadlift, shoulder press and bentover row. You can also change the final workout instead of doing 5x5 do 5x3.

[Short One]

Short One Starting strength is $30.00 but the shipping to Australia is $24.00 The web didn't say how much it weighed. Now if your bored with your program you can change the middle work out instead of doing powerclean, bench press and squat, change it to deadlift, shoulder press and bentover row. You can also change the final workout instead of doing 5x5 do 5x3.

Yeah.. Based on the web I was quoted 30$ for shipping as well.. So I'd be forking 60USD.

Thanks for the suggested alternative on the workout. By doing that it makes it very similar to the Starting Strength one.
Are you suggesting that I simply replace the middle WO (wed), and always do that on a Wed?. Or rotate it like this SS one does?

[all pro]

Yeah.. Based on the web I was quoted 30$ for shipping as well.. So I'd be forking 60USD.

Thanks for the suggested alternative on the workout. By doing that it makes it very similar to the Starting Strength one.
Are you suggesting that I simply replace the middle WO (wed), and always do that on a Wed?. Or rotate it like this SS one does?

I would replace the middle work out, don't rotate it because it makes it hard to gage progress. Remember when you fail just drop back and ramp up again. For every 5 pounds you add to your 5 rep max your 1 rep max has increased 6 pounds. I've checked your log your doing great. On average gaining 1 pound per week on your 1 rep max is good progress and your doing better then that. If you want to be more aggressive with your ramp up try the following,
week 1 20% less than rep max
week 2 10% less than rep max
week 3 5% less than rep max
week 4 REP MAX
week 5 add 5 pounds up to 200 pounds if the lift is 200 pounds then start adding 10 pounds
I would just keep running the 5 week cycle until you fail a couple of times in a row. Then you change the program again.

[Liquidtensi0n]

Hi those interested in reading.

I've been performing a beginner's version of the 5x5 for the past 8 weeks.
This revolves around 3 exercises, 3x a week. Note: This is not the intermediate version. It's the beginner's version.

Power Clean
Bench
Squat

Monday is heavy day
Wed is light day
Fri is medium day

This has been in combination with weighted crunches on Wed, and some DB curls on Fridays.
I've been increasing ok in strength, and would like to move onto 'Starting Strength' before moving onto the Intermediate version of Bill Starr's 5x5 program.
I could continue with this for a while, but I'm getting a little bored of it, and would like to incorporate the lifts outlined in the 'Starting Stength' program.
The program is outlined in the this post (rather than typing it all up again

Being that I live in Australia, I can't easily get a copy of Mark Rippetoe's book without having to pay as much as the book is worth in shipping costs.
I'm trying to find alternatives of getting a copy but wanted to get as much info in the meantime to potentially start in 2 weeks.

For those already doing this program, could you tell me:
- Do you ramp up like you do in the 5x5 program?. ie. Aim to reach your PR in wk5 or so?
- What do you do when you fail?. Do you reset much like 5x5?
- How are warm ups weights decided? How much do you use to warm up?

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions soon, but they're the main ones I have for now.

1. You don't ramp. Do a warmup and follow by 3 straight sets. Warmup might look like 5xbar 5x50% 3x70% 1x90%. Percentages are off your weight in the 3 work sets. These are just general good warmup numbers and not anything specific from Rip's book. He recommends something very similar with 5xbar and then 3 sets getting closer to top weight and lower on reps each set. For the best warmup info I've ever read check this out: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi51.htm
Rippetoe's warmup is very close to the stuff this guy recommends for strength. The bottom line is that there is no specific way to warm up, just some guidelines that should be followed and both the warmup patterns in that link and the ones in Rip's book adhere to the same principles.

2. When you fail, try to hit the weight next workout. The goal is not to lift to failure so you can maintain the frequency. Failure is just that, the inability to complete the desired number of reps. So, next workout you try to make those reps. If you do then either go up in weight next time or stick the weight for one more workout to make sure you have em. If needed reset the weight back a bit and make another run at PRs. The goal is to keep upping the weight every workout by however little it takes (microplates) until progress stalls. Then you are too advanced for this program.

3. I guess I answered the warmup stuff in 1.

[all pro]

1. You don't ramp. Do a warmup and follow by 3 straight sets. Warmup might look like 5xbar 5x50% 3x70% 1x90%. Percentages are off your weight in the 3 work sets. These are just general good warmup numbers and not anything specific from Rip's book. He recommends something very similar with 5xbar and then 3 sets getting closer to top weight and lower on reps each set. For the best warmup info I've ever read check this out: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi51.htm
Rippetoe's warmup is very close to the stuff this guy recommends for strength. The bottom line is that there is no specific way to warm up, just some guidelines that should be followed and both the warmup patterns in that link and the ones in Rip's book adhere to the same principles.

2. When you fail, try to hit the weight next workout. The goal is not to lift to failure so you can maintain the frequency. Failure is just that, the inability to complete the desired number of reps. So, next workout you try to make those reps. If you do then either go up in weight next time or stick the weight for one more workout to make sure you have em. If needed reset the weight back a bit and make another run at PRs. The goal is to keep upping the weight every workout by however little it takes (microplates) until progress stalls. Then you are too advanced for this program.

3. I guess I answered the warmup stuff in 1.

WRONG. He's useing Bill Starr's 5x5. You pyramid the weight. The pyramid builds more power. The program you've described is about 1 level below what he's already doing.

[Matta114]

WRONG. He's useing Bill Starr's 5x5. You pyramid the weight. The pyramid builds more power. The program you've described is about 1 level below what he's already doing.

no hes using Rippetoe's program. U use the same weight throughout the working sets.

[all pro]

no hes using Rippetoe's program. U use the same weight throughout the working sets.

His entire program consists of powerclean, benchpress and squat 5x5 pyramid 3 times per week heavy, light, medium. It's Bill Starr's beginners program from his book Only The Strongest Shall Survive. I helped him set it up with just a few small changes. Check out his journal. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=672694

[Short One]

whoa whoa.... Easy guys.
At the moment, I'm doing the Beginner's version of Bill Starr's program (as far as I'm aware it comes from the book 'Only the strongest will survive'.

I'm considering moving to the Rippetoe 'Starting Strength' program for more variety after I finish 9 weeks of the Beginner's program.

I believe all pro has been suggesting variations to my current workout to become more similar to the 'Starting Strength'.

I understand that SS uses 3x5 of the same weight, and 5x5 uses pyramid sets.
When I said ramp up, I mean the following: For eg, my current PR for squat is 61.5kgs. I was originally asking if I should do the following (each line below is my weekly lifts), where I read my current PR in week 5. Kinda working towards it. (this is a 5x5 approach)
wk1: 3x5x55.58kgs
wk2: 3x5x57kgs
wk3: 3x5x58.46kgs
wk4: 3x5x59.96kgs
wk5: 3x5x61.5kgs
wk6: 3x5x63.04kgs
wk7: 3x5x64.61kgs
wk8: 3x5x66.23kgs
wk9: 3x5x67.88kgs

but I think you guys are suggesting that I start from 61.5kgs in the first week.

[all pro]

whoa whoa.... Easy guys.
At the moment, I'm doing the Beginner's version of Bill Starr's program (as far as I'm aware it comes from the book 'Only the strongest will survive'.

I'm considering moving to the Rippetoe 'Starting Strength' program for more variety after I finish 9 weeks of the Beginner's program.

I believe all pro has been suggesting variations to my current workout to become more similar to the 'Starting Strength'.

I understand that SS uses 3x5 of the same weight, and 5x5 uses pyramid sets.
When I said ramp up, I mean the following: For eg, my current PR for squat is 61.5kgs. I was originally asking if I should do the following (each line below is my weekly lifts), where I read my current PR in week 5. Kinda working towards it. (this is a 5x5 approach)
wk1: 3x5x55.58kgs
wk2: 3x5x57kgs
wk3: 3x5x58.46kgs
wk4: 3x5x59.96kgs
wk5: 3x5x61.5kgs
wk6: 3x5x63.04kgs
wk7: 3x5x64.61kgs
wk8: 3x5x66.23kgs
wk9: 3x5x67.88kgs

but I think you guys are suggesting that I start from 61.5kgs in the first week.

Yup, your right I'm moving you little by little toward the other program. The downside is 3x5 with the same weight is A LOT OF FRIGGEN VOLUME. Before you choose to do this please do the math. I'm doing 3x5 same weight for my first workout and 5x5 pyramid for my second workout currently. For me right now there is no third work out. I'm going to show you an example please don't follow this, it takes a while to get here.
Workout 1
set 1 25% of target x 5
set 2 50% of target x5
set 3 target x 5
set 4 target x 5
set 5 target x 5
set 6 weight from set 1 plus weight from set 2 x 10
Workout 2
set 1 35% of target x 5
set 2 70% of target x 5
set 3 80% of target x 5
set 4 90% of target x 5
set 5 target x 5
set 6 80% x 10
and this is the easier of the two setups the other one is a total of 7 sets each

[Short One]

Yup, your right I'm moving you little by little toward the other program. The downside is 3x5 with the same weight is A LOT OF FRIGGEN VOLUME. Before you choose to do this please do the math. I'm doing 3x5 same weight for my first workout and 5x5 pyramid for my second workout currently. For me right now there is no third work out. I'm going to show you an example please don't follow this, it takes a while to get here.
Workout 1
set 1 25% of target x 5
set 2 50% of target x5
set 3 target x 5
set 4 target x 5
set 5 target x 5
set 6 weight from set 1 plus weight from set 2 x 10
Workout 2
set 1 35% of target x 5
set 2 70% of target x 5
set 3 80% of target x 5
set 4 90% of target x 5
set 5 target x 5
set 6 80% x 10
and this is the easier of the two setups the other one is a total of 7 sets each

I understand what you're saying and you're correct. I'm certain 3x5 of same weight is likely/surely more volume than pyramid sets of 5x5.

I'm yet to compare them in total poundage though I intend to. I guess I'm after a bit more volume, as well as variety.

I'll do some more homework on it all, and regather on your original suggestion.

Thanks for that.

[Matta114]

ah i thought i was discussing Rippetoe's program the whole time

[RavensFan2k3]

I understand what you're saying and you're correct. I'm certain 3x5 of same weight is likely/surely more volume than pyramid sets of 5x5.

I'm yet to compare them in total poundage though I intend to. I guess I'm after a bit more volume, as well as variety.

I'll do some more homework on it all, and regather on your original suggestion.

Thanks for that.

3x5 with straight sets(with the warmup sets) is more volume than the 5x5 with pyramiding weights. Does that mean there will be more muscle growth?

[Short One]

3x5 with straight sets(with the warmup sets) is more volume than the 5x5 with pyramiding weights. Does that mean there will be more muscle growth?

Not sure RavensFan2k3.. I was hoping so, but perhaps someone else can answer this question.

[Short One]

ah i thought i was discussing Rippetoe's program the whole time

*laughing*.. We were.. At the start.

[all pro]

3x5 with straight sets(with the warmup sets) is more volume than the 5x5 with pyramiding weights. Does that mean there will be more muscle growth?

Yes, but recovery becomes an issue. If you look at my to workouts 1 is hi volume, it will increase work capacity ie the pyramid dosn't take as much out of you. The pyramid boosts speed and power way more then straight sets. My default is always 5x5 pyramid to catch my breath before making anouther run. This is why there is no 1 perfect program. In the end you learn how to cycle them.

[RavensFan2k3]

Yes, but recovery becomes an issue. If you look at my to workouts 1 is hi volume, it will increase work capacity ie the pyramid dosn't take as much out of you. The pyramid boosts speed and power way more then straight sets. My default is always 5x5 pyramid to catch my breath before making anouther run. This is why there is no 1 perfect program. In the end you learn how to cycle them.

yeah speed and power is what i need anyway. I have a question though...what about it makes it work speed and power? The lighter weights?

[Liquidtensi0n]

WRONG. He's useing Bill Starr's 5x5. You pyramid the weight. The pyramid builds more power. The program you've described is about 1 level below what he's already doing.

WRONG. He's ASKING about Rippetoe's program in Starting Strength and everything I've said about it is accurate. And to refute some of the other stuff you said about how there might be too much volume. Training with more volume conditions you to recover faster so the added volume quickly becomes manageable. The other thing is and this is a paraphrasing of what Rip says in the book... a beginner with not very heavy core lifts won't be able to do much in a single workout he can't recover from quickly. Of course if he does a 10x5 straight he will die but 3x5 straight is very reasanoble.

[Short One]

WRONG. He's useing Bill Starr's 5x5. You pyramid the weight. The pyramid builds more power. The program you've described is about 1 level below what he's already doing.

Hi all pro.

Before I started this thread, I was of the belief that in order of progression a beginner would do the programs in this order:
Beginner 5x5
Starting Strength
Intermediate 5x5

I read now that you believe it's:
Starting Strength
Beginner 5x5
Intermediate 5x5

Which of these two (Starting Strength of Beginner 5x5) is more likely to build mass as well. (I understand a lot of variables play on this, but I use the term 'most likely' loosly here)

[Matta114]

I say drop the beginner 5x5... do Rippetoe's program because it is a more hypertrophy (gaining muscle mass) focused program. Whereas beginner 5x5 is more strength based (not entirely, it dependso n ur diet, its just more strength based then Rippetoe's).THEN move to Intermediate 5x5 after about 3 months of it.

GL

[Liquidtensi0n]

Hi all pro.

Before I started this thread, I was of the belief that in order of progression a beginner would do the programs in this order:
Beginner 5x5
Starting Strength
Intermediate 5x5

I read now that you believe it's:
Starting Strength
Beginner 5x5
Intermediate 5x5

Which of these two (Starting Strength of Beginner 5x5) is more likely to build mass as well. (I understand a lot of variables play on this, but I use the term 'most likely' loosly here)

Lemme see if I can clear this up. As far as I know, the Bill Starr program that you refer to as "Beginner 5x5" is not actually a beginner program. It is however the program that both Rippetoe's and Madcow's variants are based on. You should probably go ahead and focus on Rippetoe's Starting Strength program for both strength and hypertrophy and once you completely stall that out, move on to the intermediate 5x5. Good luck with your progress man.

[Matta114]

You should probably go ahead and focus on Rippetoe's Starting Strength program for both strength and hypertrophy and once you completely stall that out, move on to the intermediate 5x5. Good luck with your progress man.

Exactly

[siamesedream]

Matta114,

You say Rippetoe says to increase "if you can". Are you, then, saying Rippetoe advocates failure training? If you can't make the increase, then you're training to failure. According to Glenn Penndlay, you should never be training to failure for more than 2 weeks with linear progression and, once you get to a point where you do, it's time to ramp down and plan your increases again.