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  1. #1
    Registered User No_Limits's Avatar
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    Protein & Carbohydrates Together Bigger Insulin Spike ?

    Hi there,
    I just finished reading Game Over Volume 2 : Ebook availaible on BB.com, and they claim that we should not Mix Carbohydrates and Proteins together since it have a bigger insulin spike effect.

    But I also own a book : Eating For Life by Bill Philips, this one seems to be a pro Protein/Carbs he suggest a rating of about 40/40/20 (Protein/Carbs/Fats)

    He says that since Protein is a very complex particle if we mix it with carbonhydrates it should slow down the Glycemic Index (GI) of the carbonhydrate resulting in lesser insulin spikes. Which makes senses to me.

    in Game Over Volume 2 it seems to be a kind of Ketogenic diet with very low carbs, high fats and medium/high proteins with a carb cycling every 18 meals, a kind of refeel in carbs.

    IMO if we eat simple carbs as sugar, mixing it with a protein meal, I don't think that proteins really influence carbs since their molecules don't melt/combine together to form a new molecules , so the body don't process them as a new molecule he process carbs quickly so carbohydrates are quickly delivered in bloodstream becoming glucose therefore the insulin spike, and while this is processing the body is still trying to ''process'' the proteins to get them in the bloodstream I guess.

    This theory don't support any of the two theories, in fact it says that protein has no effect on carbs.

    But I'm probably wrong I know it, but this is not what I want to know, I want to know who is right thx Guys !
    Last edited by No_Limits; 02-08-2008 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Orthograph mistake (Quebec-French)
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  2. #2
    Registered User wildtacos's Avatar
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    Insulin spikes are no good. Protein does not effect carbs as far as I know. They do not mix and do not effect each other. Certain foods and sugars give more of a insulin spike as well as how you body personally reacts to it. Protein doesn't effect it. You can google list of foods with low GI... best is oatmeal! yays
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  3. #3
    Registered User Amino89's Avatar
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    Chuck Rudolph the dietitian that helped write Game Over is on top of his game, I'd personally go with his info. I had much success with the Cut Diet and think its a great plan. He is referring to ONLY protein + carbohydrates in a meal that will illicit a large insulin spike. However, if you add fat to the meal (so it is now carb, protein, and fat in one meal) it causes a "buffer" ultimately allowing a slower digestion of the carbohydrates which would illicit a slower, steadier insulin release.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Amino89's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wildtacos View Post
    Insulin spikes are no good. Protein does not effect carbs as far as I know. They do not mix and do not effect each other. Certain foods and sugars give more of a insulin spike as well as how you body personally reacts to it. Protein doesn't effect it. You can google list of foods with low GI... best is oatmeal! yays
    GI is compromised when other foods are eaten in combination with other foods.
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  5. #5
    Registered User djansen's Avatar
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    so a can of tuna and brown rice is going to cause a insulin spike?
    If God did not want us to eat animals, he would not have made them out of meat.

    Answer to whole egg questions
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=178259761#post178259761

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  6. #6
    Registered User Amino89's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by djansen View Post
    so a can of tuna and brown rice is going to cause a insulin spike?
    There is fat in the tuna, and I wouldn't use the term "spike". But yes I believe you would get a more immediate/larger response of insulin than if you were to add some quality fats.
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  7. #7
    Registered User djansen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Amino89 View Post
    There is fat in the tuna, and I wouldn't use the term "spike". But yes I believe you would get a more immediate/larger response of insulin than if you were to add some quality fats.
    there is minimal fat in tuna, most every solid food has a small amount of fat. also what about the souble fiber in some carbs? I dont think mixing whole food protein and carbs is going to cause a problem but I do agree that fats should be at every feeding.
    If God did not want us to eat animals, he would not have made them out of meat.

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  8. #8
    Registered User Amino89's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by djansen View Post
    there is minimal fat in tuna, most every solid food has a small amount of fat. also what about the souble fiber in some carbs? I dont think mixing whole food protein and carbs is going to cause a problem but I do agree that fats should be at every feeding.
    I'm not sure about the fiber, I would assume not since it slows assimilation down. In most diets having just protein and carbs will not be a problem. However, the whole point of the cut diet is insulin manipulation and carb depletion followed by refeeds.
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  9. #9
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Note that there are both the glycemic index and the insulin index - which are two different (but related) things. Your tuna or whey protein may not have much in the way of a GI value, but it is insulinogenic (II value). While these numbers have value, they become less applicable in mixed meals and in a fed state.

    And things like soluble fiber as noted, will attenuate glucose elevations.

    http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm
    http://www.glycemicindex.com
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter28.htm
    http://www.alanaragon.com/elements-c...mic-index.html
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  10. #10
    Chef Bob The Solution's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by djansen View Post
    there is minimal fat in tuna, most every solid food has a small amount of fat. also what about the souble fiber in some carbs? I dont think mixing whole food protein and carbs is going to cause a problem but I do agree that fats should be at every feeding.
    are you stating that post workout should contain some fats as well? most people neglect this theory
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  11. #11
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LayzieBone085 View Post
    are you stating that post workout should contain some fats as well? most people neglect this theory
    Yes, it can contain fats. Required, no.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  12. #12
    13S3A BlueFenix13S's Avatar
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    Scivation is VERY big on insulin control, and carbohydrates have a direct impact on insulin levels. In fact, for their carb re-feeds, they recommend NO PROTEIN and just carbs+fat in the form of sweet potatoes and oats, combined with almonds and almond/peanut butter. Look as the results they have gotten and tell me if that theory works or not. I'm leaning toward......... YES!!!!
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  13. #13
    Registered User No_Limits's Avatar
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    Here is what Professor Brand-Miller has to say about the insulin index in the latest version of her best-selling book, The New Glucose Revolution (New York: Marlowe and Company, 2003, pages 57-58 :

    ''When both have been tested together, the glycemic index is extremely good at predicting the food's insulin index. In other words, a low-GI food has a low insulin index value and a high-GI food has a high insulin index value. Furthermore, the level of glucose in the blood is directly related to adverse reactions such as protein glycosylation (linkages between glucose and protein) and oxidative molecules. ''

    Linkage between glucose and protein... does it means that protein lost his properties of Protein or does it means that the body will have to assimilate them as a 1 new molecule..

    he says too :'' There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin.''

    By Eric Satterwhite on BB.com : Tale Of The Tape


    All-Bran
    Total CHO 88.3g
    Avail. CHO 50.0g
    Protein 38.5g
    Fiber 38.5g
    Fat 3.8g

    Corn Flakes
    Total CHO 60.9g
    Avail. CHO 50g
    Protein 4.3g
    Fiber 1.7g
    Fat 0.0g

    Between the two cereals there was NO DIFFERENCE on the rate of appearance of glucose at the 0-20 min mark. In other words the bran cereal was digested just as quickly as the corn flakes despite the obscene amount of fiber[2].

    The bran cereal also had a greater rate of appearance of insulin into the bloodstream. This causes a rapid clearance of the glucose from the blood bringing it back down to levels that would appear to be the result of a low glycemic response.

    So why does bran cereal have such a significant impact on insulin concentrations? One of the most prominent reasons is that the bran cereal has a much higher protein content than the corn flakes.

    Research has proven time and time again that when protein is ingested in combination with carbohydrate, the insulin response is greater than just with carbohydrates alone [3,5]. One of the main reasons that many people today consume a protein/carbohydrates drink after training. ''

    Nevertheless as it's been said I think that mixing protein & carbs together for an Everyday Diet Lifestyle should be fine but apparently not for a cutting diet.

    (I was suppose to eat my tuna with some brown rice for lunch but .. I'll try to add some fat I guess :P)

    I took the info on 2 links in10city gave : http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter28.htm
    Last edited by No_Limits; 02-09-2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason: problem copy/pasting
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  14. #14
    Registered User labradarep's Avatar
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    C & P ingested together can increase protein uptake by as much as 40%. So yes take them together.
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    Originally Posted by Fidelitas626 View Post
    Scivation is VERY big on insulin control, and carbohydrates have a direct impact on insulin levels. In fact, for their carb re-feeds, they recommend NO PROTEIN and just carbs+fat in the form of sweet potatoes and oats, combined with almonds and almond/peanut butter. Look as the results they have gotten and tell me if that theory works or not. I'm leaning toward......... YES!!!!
    Of course going by that logic look at Layne Norton. Reading the guy's articles on bulking or cutting he suggests the opposite and yet looks pretty ripped before contest. If it works for you, go for it. But I've seen others do it other ways with success too.
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    Originally Posted by NamesAreHardToPick View Post
    Of course going by that logic look at Layne Norton. Reading the guy's articles on bulking or cutting he suggests the opposite and yet looks pretty ripped before contest. If it works for you, go for it. But I've seen others do it other ways with success too.
    x2 more than one way to get ripped, once you find what works for you stick to it
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    Right now for breakfast I eat only carbs (oats and a banana) and some protein (protein powder). I do this because I assumed that my body needed the nutrients quickly after going all night with no nourishment and figured some fats would slow down this process. My question is should I add some healthy fats to this meal?
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    Originally Posted by Fidelitas626 View Post
    Scivation is VERY big on insulin control, and carbohydrates have a direct impact on insulin levels. In fact, for their carb re-feeds, they recommend NO PROTEIN and just carbs+fat in the form of sweet potatoes and oats, combined with almonds and almond/peanut butter. Look as the results they have gotten and tell me if that theory works or not. I'm leaning toward......... YES!!!!
    ... and like sum1 else said there are many people that do the exact opposite and see great results as well.

    Anything that you ingest will make your body release insulin, even protein or fat by itself

    now if you eat let's say tuna and rice the insulin spike will be lower because it will take much longer to digest

    here's how it works, carbs are digested quite efficiently and quickly so let's say you eat just white rice, since it doesn't have much fiber or fat to slow digestion it will digest rapidly thus releasing glucose into your blood and make your pancreas release insulin to control the blood glucose level

    if you eat brown rice with tuna, tuna has fat and prot and brown rice has fiber (things that slow digestion) it will take much longer to digest and the blood glucose levels will increase gradually hence no need to release that much insulin at the time
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    Originally Posted by leblanc View Post
    Right now for breakfast I eat only carbs (oats and a banana) and some protein (protein powder). I do this because I assumed that my body needed the nutrients quickly after going all night with no nourishment and figured some fats would slow down this process. My question is should I add some healthy fats to this meal?
    I don't think you need to since oats have like 7g of fat / 100g

    I presume you must eat like 200g so that's 14g right there.
    You should try eating the banana+whey and then 30 minutes later the oats but seriously I don't think u will see much of a difference
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    What is an insulin spike, and why is it bad?
    No sir, I don't like it.
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    Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
    What is an insulin spike, and why is it bad?
    because you want your blood sugar levels to be as steady and stable as possible.

    let's say you eat a packet of sugar, it gets digested in minutes and it gets to your blood just like that

    your body goes: "oh **** so much sugar in the blood let's clear it... release a massive insulin spike"

    then the insulin makes the levels go down and you are left with no blood sugar= no energy
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    Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
    What is an insulin spike, and why is it bad?
    Isn't that one of those pre-measured syringes for diabetics ? Good if you're shooting GH probably. Bad for me though - I'd end up in a coma.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    now if you eat let's say tuna and rice the insulin spike will be lower because it will take much longer to digest

    here's how it works, carbs are digested quite efficiently and quickly so let's say you eat just white rice, since it doesn't have much fiber or fat to slow digestion it will digest rapidly thus releasing glucose into your blood and make your pancreas release insulin to control the blood glucose level
    If you read the links I gave a few post earlier you would see that it seems to be the opposite according to more recent search. And Insulin Spike is not directly connected to GI it seems that there is a kind of link between both but we can't explain it, meaning that some High GI foods do have a lower insulin response than a Lower GI food and some protein do have their impact on insulin food without having any carbs in it

    I think that we can't say that protein slows down the assimilation of carbs thus reducing insulin release that's no more true.

    Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
    What is an insulin spike, and why is it bad?
    Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    because you want your blood sugar levels to be as steady and stable as possible.

    let's say you eat a packet of sugar, it gets digested in minutes and it gets to your blood just like that

    your body goes: "oh **** so much sugar in the blood let's clear it... release a massive insulin spike"

    then the insulin makes the levels go down and you are left with no blood sugar= no energy
    The energy aren't in the blood sugar (Glucose) the eneygy our body use is stored in muscles as Glycogen and in the liver.

    When we eat Cabs it goes into our bloodstream becoming Glucose and then the Pancreas deliver an hormon commonly called the insulin carrying this glucose out of the bloodstream to the muscles cells and when muscles cells are fully replenished if there are still glucose remaining in the bloodstream the insulin carry them to the liver and then if the liver is fulled too glycogen are stored as fat by the insulin (We don't want this ! )

    After a workout we used our glycogen stores to lift the weight, the body being depleted of it will tend to secrete cortisol hormone which is an hormone that dissassemble muscle tissues to convert the proteins of it into glucose to be stored again as glycogen.. that's the reason why we do take a PWO (post workout meal) with carbs/pro because of the resulting insulin response we will have that will replenish our glycogen stored as already explained just above.
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    Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    then the insulin makes the levels go down and you are left with no blood sugar= no energy
    Really? How low?
    No sir, I don't like it.
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