Bench press ain't cutting it!

[all pro]

So did you not find these TUT's interesting ??? lots did on other forums, and the Supertraining forum.

HVT is not HVT training really, HIT is, as HIT’S TUT is similar to HVT’S TUT, and far higher when we specialize, but us HITTER specializes grow, then back of a little, HVT just goes over the top and growth stops in its tracks. The only difference is HIT goes to failure where science has proved that is the fastest way for growth, and HIT and is made up of intensity, volume and frequency.
Defiant, always skips over this,
From Ronnie Coleman's video, the cost of redemption. TUT for shoulder workout

Did not count Ronnie's warm up
3 sets db press
3 sets nautilus lateral raise
3 sets nautilus press
3 sets front raise
Did not count the standing cable movement, not a shoulder exercise, more for lats or triceps, who is he kidding.
3 sets cable bent over rows

No form or full range movements, no did he take any exercise to failure, on any exercise, what ever.

RONNIE COLEMAN'S FULL TUT ON SHOULDER ROUTINE.
FULL TUT 4 MIN. 53 SEC.

Wayne's workout, that's me folks.

I have 4 different shoulder routines, low to high reps, which I alternate ever six weeks, I do 1 for 6 weeks then go to the next routine, until a full circle then repeat, get it ???

All routines comprise of,
Set 1 nautilus lateral raise
Set 2 drop set, or breakdown set on nautilus lateral raise
Set 3 nautilus shoulder press

Routine 1. TUT 2 min. 48 sec.
Routine 2. TUT 3 min. 48 sec.
Routine 3. TUT 4 min. 30 sec.
Routine 4. TUT 5 min. 40 sec.

SO WHAT YOU ALL MAKE OF THAT, MY 3 SETS V RONNIE'S 15. HE DOES NOT GO TO FAILURE I DO, I USE GOOD FORM HE DOES NOT, I USE FULL RANGE, HE DOES NOT, ((((((I LIFT CONTROLLED SLOW REPS, HE DOES FAST REPS)))))) I COUNTED FORCED AND NEGATIVES AFTER FAILURE FOR MY TUT.

Ronnie's full TUT on leg routine
FULL TUT 5 MIN. 15 SEC.

Wayne's full TUT on leg routine
Routine 1. TUT 3 min. 40 sec.
Routine 2. TUT 4 min. 30 sec.
Routine 3. TUT 5 min. 20 sec.
Routine 4. TUT 6 min. 40 sec.

And I think my TUT is maybe a bit high, for a HIT man, but this is what works for me


this is becoming very interesting. Ronnie's first exercise on the shoulder routine was DB should press his full set took 16 set, with our fastest style 2/4 we would not even performed 3 reps, hehehe.

Just looked and timed Jay Cutler New Improved and beyond video.
Shoulder workout

L.R. 5 SETS
D.B. S.P. 4 SETS
CABLE SL 3 SETS
F.R. 3 SETS
MACHINE BENT OVER RAISE 4 SETS
D.B. BENT OVER RAISE 3 SETS

22 SETS IN ALL,

FULL TUT 7 MIN 10 SEC

HIS FORM ON EACH REP. WAS AWFUL, JUST RIDICULES, IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS HIS FIRST DAY IN THE GYM, AND HE HAD A VERY EASY WORKOUT, MADE ME LAUGH WHEN HE SAID HE HAD A HARD FORCED REP.

And if you look in Ellington’s book Big, there is a S/S routine for shoulder with 6 sets in = 12 min. of exercise.

Wow, I have tried this, it's damn hard to say the least, but this routine would only be done say, twice a week for 2 weeks or once a week for a month, as this is specialising on shoulders.


But that cycle in my opinion should only be done twice a week for two weeks, or one a week for three weeks.

Wayne

If TUT was the answer then why does Bioforce advocate FAST rep speed. You can't have it both ways. TUT for 8-12 reps is a wussy workout. It didn't work for you, thats why your doing a hivolume program with a fast rep speed ala DCT. I Pmd John, I hope you're ready to explain yourself.

[all pro]

See madcow was a one hit wonder, last post, 03-20-2006 he was quite good on the low strength programs

Wayne

Madcow has said goodbye. He isn't comeing back. Thanks Wayne, nice job. Proud of yourself ?

[waynelucky]

Wayne,

You said "exercises". IF I DID SAY EXERSICES, I MEANT TO SAY SETS, AS THAT IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY TO ADD THINGS UP, so I added all the sets up, and there were ISOLATIONS 165 SETS, COMPOUNDS 121 SETS, that’s a 73 to 27 percentage. You made such great gains, but you were still totally against me.
Originally posted by waynelucky

YOU DID NOT USE equal number of compound and isolation exercises, with more emphasis on compounds.

But most importantly, you don't understand the concept of microcycles. You can't seem to understand how training cycles work. I did not post every workout. I posted 2 loading cycles (a total of 12 days) and 1 or 2 deloading cycles (which lasted 9 days each and followed 2 or 3 loading cycles).

I followed the loading/deloading cycling for a period of just over 4 months.

They are not all listed.

Days varied in rep range.

Two 15 rep "burn/pump" days

Two 10 rep "strength" days

Two 5 rep "power" days.

That adds up to one 6 day cycle.

I used isolations on the 15 rep days. I used compounds on the 10 and 5 rep days.

Why would you just say that now, seems like your making excuses, however you do say at the start of the post, that your going to concentrate on the on calves, delts, and quads, working them 6 days per week, for three months, and to be fair looking back you did miss putting sets down from 12/03/05 to 12/17/05, but surly they would have been more isolations as the bodyparts and exersices you did put in for the other days were mostly isolations, but from 11/28/05 to 1/05/05 you did put down 19 days

There is no point in discussing my own, or anyone else's training programs or theories with you. You have no basic understanding of many of the key concepts I, and everyone else seems to, use.

I do have understanding of the key concepts of training, why would you say that, I would never “try” to put you down like that.

You don't understand, and don't believe in periodization -- you think periodization and dual-factor are synonymous with 5x5 -- Wrong.

I do very well understand periodization, and have you it myself, it’s ok, but not that effective against D.C.T. WHEN did I say this and where, please; you think periodization and dual-factor are synonymous with 5x5 -- Wrong

You don't think fatigue is anything to worry about, and have stated that it's effects are "overrated" -- Wrong again.

Sorry but I am too damn right there, as did bioforce agree with me, If you feel the effects of fatigue, you really do not know “how” and “when” to train, you still do not know your own body, no wonder you feel the effects of fatigue if you train each bodypart six times per week for three weeks, one training session on D.C.T. would spurt more growth than the 18 workouts, and that is honestly exaggerating.

Funny how I have made liner progress for over six months and “no” fatigue, just a pure adrenal buzz.

Both myself, and Bioforce have asked you repeatedly to support your fantastical opinions with YOUR OWN ideas on training.

When have you repeatedly asked me to support my opinions ??? I WILL DO SO ANY TIME, PLEASE ASK ME A QUESTION.

Leave my name and my training out of your posts

You don't understand it, you bastardize it, and misrepresent me.

STOP

This is why I want you banned. You are a distraction, a liar, and a nuisance.

I only put down what you wrote on your post, I fairly counted up all the sets and they added up too ISOLATIONS 165 SETS, COMPOUNDS 121 SETS, that’s a 73 to 27 percentage.

I do not want you or anyone else banned, you’re a great guy, this is only a simple, little debate, and you seen to be getting all wound up, please don’t, sorry if that’s the way you feel, if you think I am a distraction don’t read, I have always been polite, always wised you well in your competitions, never used bad langue, and always tried to be friends, most who PM me for training advice, enjoy me. I AM NOT A LIAR, I JUST COUNTED UP YOUR SETS, you seem a nuisance, as you were the one who wrote the sets on your post, ok put all the full sets in from the 11/28/05 to the 1/08/06, and let’s be honest for the 42 days.

Please, not because I am asking, but because I do really care about all here, I love the iron game like you, but please give the D.C.T. a go, you will hypertrophy to the size you always dreamt on in a matter of weeks.

Wayne
__________________

[waynelucky]

Madcow has said goodbye. He isn't coming back. Thanks Wayne, nice job. Proud of yourself ?

I would not be proud of myself if I saved a 100 lives, I am not the big headed type, quite the opposite, but his leaving has nothing to do with me, he posted lots on here after we debated, please do not try and blame things on me. But I tried from the very start to be friends with him, I said to him, hay Madcow, are you really mad and a cow, but from the very start he seemed to be here only to try and put me down, very unsuccessfully.

All pro, that time you asked me to be friends I said yes ??? I have never said anything bad of you, always been polite, no bad langue, your only problem, is you told me that the other time you lot ganged up on so and so, I think we are to old for that, lets just talk training, have you given the D.C.T. an go yet, please just try it on one bodypart, if you do I will try 5 x 5 on one bodypart haws that, cant get fairer than that.

Lets all try to get him back ??? That would be nice.

Wayne

[waynelucky]

If TUT was the answer then why does Bioforce advocate FAST rep speed. You can't have it both ways. TUT for 8-12 reps is a wussy workout. It didn't work for you, thats why your doing a hivolume program with a fast rep speed ala DCT. I Pmd John, I hope you're ready to explain yourself.

Who said TUT was the answer ??? I posted the TUT'S just to show the comparison of HIT and HVT training's TUT.

Frigging (damn nearly swore hehehe, sorry) hell all pro, that’s all your doing is starting arguments, lets just talk training please, all I showed was the comparison of HIT and HVT training's TUT, what is wrong with that, no one else thought or saw it.

I did not always do a 8 to 12 workout, but yes HIT worked for me big time. I am not doing at all a HVT program, how come you say that ??? I am doing D.C.T. it's brutal, but so rewarding, size wise, strength wise and mentally rewarding, I am still making progress after 10 months on it, and nearly all sets are to failure.

Yes fast controlled speed is better and more intense.


You Pm’ed John, and hope I am ready to explain myself, that is quite girly, you mean you on me, so what please did I do ???, As I do not know what ???

Come on let’s be friends, stop all this silliness, please.

Wayne

[J.L.C.]

I only put down what you wrote on your post, I fairly counted up all the sets and they added up too ISOLATIONS 165 SETS, COMPOUNDS 121 SETS, that’s a 73 to 27 percentage.

This is about as much as I can handle, but here is a small math lesson for you.

165 "isolation sets" + 121 "compound sets" = 286 total sets

165 "isolation sets"/286 total sets = 0.58
= 58% "isolation sets"

121 "compound sets"/286 total sets = 0.42
= 42% "compound sets"

I am in NO WAY supporting your addition of my sets. But IF you were right about the totals, you still can't calculate a percentage.

Anyone who is interested in what I ACTUALLY did has already looked at the log.

All I have asked is that you stop referencing my training and my name in your ramblings.

[Guinness5.0]

Isn't continually plagiarizing someone elses writings grounds for banning this asshat? Seriously, this guy is nothing but a detraction to this board.

Wayneloony, would you reread this thread and see that NO ONE HERE GIVES A DAMN ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY! EVER! It's jsut so unusual to see someone who is obvioulsy not getting it - don't you feel how much everyone here wnats yo to leave? Your 'mentor' (or rather the person you tried to kiss up to) has asked you as clear as day NOT to associate yourself with him, yet you continue to do so.

You are the strangest entity I've encountered on the internet so far. I'm really starting to beleive that you don't even lift weights at all - you just exist to argue, and what better place than bodybuilding where there are few absolutes and lots of strong opinions to throw around. You don't validate anything you say or do, but just keep blabbering on and on to a new crop of people who are unfortunate enough to get sucked up in your dimentia.

[kethnaab]

You are the strangest entity I've encountered on the internet so far. I'm really starting to beleive that you don't even lift weights at all

agreed 100% on both points.

strange as hell
doesn't lift weights, just talks about it

[Andrew.Cook]

And at last some people are starting to understand my points and what I say.

Yes it's still going, you were sort of with me, however you started the 5 x 5 with that program there is not much room for improvement, as on 5 reps you might add 5 pounds for so many weeks, but not many weeks, you will quickly come to a sticking point, as the Mental, Metabolic, and Motor limits are "NOT" explored with that type of training and "each" can create, its own limiting factor. To reach Maximum Potential, one must be prepared to recognize the stimulus needed for the goal (load/volume/time wise) and develop each of those limiting factors to allow maximum or high percentage results.

But on the D.C.T. you would not get a sticking point for nine or so months as the Mental, Metabolic, and Motor limits "ARE" explored with this type of training and "each" can create, its own limiting factor. To reach Maximum Potential, one must be prepared to recognize the stimulus needed for the goal (load/volume/time wise) and develop each of those limiting factors to allow maximum or high percentage results. I think what is missing here is the disclosure that as the load goes south, the speed and acceleration "increases".
So in fact, at various portions of the ROM with lighter loads, the actual training force loads are greater than with Max singles.




As why would you think you would build a muscle better doing the second function of the muscle, then the first function, I think it has to be the first function, as you get more tension that way, ALSO WITH THE COMPOUND MOVEMENTS, YOU "ARE" LIMITED BY THE STABILISERS, "LIMITED" there is no way round that.

See madcow was a one hit wonder, last post, 03-20-2006 he was quite good on the low strength programs

Wayne

Huh? You answered questions (or statements) that I did not make. I'm not now, nor have I ever been on, 5x5 program... nor HIT, nor HVT. I use some tenants of each program, but I don't subscribe to any one dogma where lifting is concerned. I stated before that I see the genius in 5x5 as a beginners program, but I am no beginner. I would have loved a program like that when I was starting out (in fact someone should have put me on a program like that). I agree that some isolation work is necessary for bodybuilding, but that your idea of just how much isolation is wrong.
W-R-O-N-G... Just in case you choose to cut and paste that as some endorsement of your ideas.

[bassing68]

Isn't continually plagiarizing someone elses writings grounds for banning this asshat? Seriously, this guy is nothing but a detraction to this board.

Wayneloony, would you reread this thread and see that NO ONE HERE GIVES A DAMN ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY! EVER! It's jsut so unusual to see someone who is obvioulsy not getting it - don't you feel how much everyone here wnats yo to leave? Your 'mentor' (or rather the person you tried to kiss up to) has asked you as clear as day NOT to associate yourself with him, yet you continue to do so.

You are the strangest entity I've encountered on the internet so far. I'm really starting to beleive that you don't even lift weights at all - you just exist to argue, and what better place than bodybuilding where there are few absolutes and lots of strong opinions to throw around. You don't validate anything you say or do, but just keep blabbering on and on to a new crop of people who are unfortunate enough to get sucked up in your dimentia.

Guiness is not alone in this room; I'd say many of us are there as well. When I first entered this site I was green as grass. ( I'm still green and don't understand a lot). I used to think like Wayne about isolations as most lay persons would. Luckly Madcow, Kethnaab, Ironaddict and some others engaged Wayne and I saw the light so to speak. At first I was against anybody being banned as I posted on the Ban Waynelucky thread, but now am convinced he should be. He is a danger to any newbe and seriously misquotes everybody. This guy needs a shrink.

[all pro]

All pro, that time you asked me to be friends I said yes ??? I have never said anything bad of you, always been polite, no bad langue, your only problem, is you told me that the other time you lot ganged up on so and so, I think we are to old for that, lets just talk training, have you given the D.C.T. an go yet, please just try it on one bodypart, if you do I will try 5 x 5 on one bodypart haws that, cant get fairer than that.
Wayne

I'm all ready useing it for 1 exercise. I'm giveing it 16 weeks to show me what it can do. I can't be fairer then that.

[kingfish3]

5x5 trainers, volume trainers, flat bench pressers just hate it when they get owned. Only one mentzer hit workout is needed to be able to tell its the best way to grow. Uh it doesnt mean walk in and do 1 set for the dummies.

[TheCore]

5x5 trainers, volume trainers, flat bench pressers just hate it when they get owned. Only one mentzer hit workout is needed to be able to tell its the best way to grow. Uh it doesnt mean walk in and do 1 set for the dummies.

Wow strong claims...

[kingfish3]

well the post is, bench pressing aint cutting it. Duh!. I know of few people except roiders that see results on benching. You want lasting results, not bench pressing more in a month and then a year later wonder why your back doing the same thing

[all pro]

well the post is, bench pressing aint cutting it. Duh!. I know of few people except roiders that see results on benching. You want lasting results, not bench pressing more in a month and then a year later wonder why your back doing the same thing

If I could use the same type and amount of steroids that Mentzer used to kill himself, I could use Mentzer Hit and grow like a weed, in fact I could sit on my ass not touch a weight and grow like a weed.

[TheCore]

If I could use the same type and amount of steroids that Mentzer used to kill himself, I could use Mentzer Hit and grow like a weed, in fact I could sit on my ass not touch a weight and grow like a weed.

Wow stong ownage...

[Andalite]

Wow stong ownage...

lmao...

[nbk]

well the post is, bench pressing aint cutting it. Duh!. I know of few people except roiders that see results on benching. You want lasting results, not bench pressing more in a month and then a year later wonder why your back doing the same thing

what would you suggest is a better mass builder for the chest than bench?

doing just dips and flys?

cables?

jw

[kethnaab]

oh lord. don't ask kingfish questions, he is a troll. dominik posted some of his history here, links to some of the most assinine threads you've ever seen.

you think wayne is bad? HA. kingfish has him beat by a country mile.

[Andrew.Cook]

oh lord. don't ask kingfish questions, he is a troll. dominik posted some of his history here, links to some of the most assinine threads you've ever seen.

you think wayne is bad? HA. kingfish has him beat by a country mile.

I'll second that sentiment. I've run acrossed this moron before, and where Wayne is obnoxious and seems to ramble on about nothing (ad nauseum) at least he is polite. Kingfish is simply a rude little... however, to his credit, at least he answers your questions directly (not quite as fuzzy as Wayne).

[kingfish3]

come on rookie, havent you read the posts. I recommend mentzer hit with pre exhaustion and slower rep speed. Also mentzer took less roids then the others just like dorian took less. Mentzer hit is scientific training and especially tailored for naturals.

[TheCore]

Kingfish tell me what Mentzers hit training theorie is, how exactly is it good for long term. How do you progress, cause just going to failure all the time isn't really a good long term progression plan. At least not if their is no loading or deloading...

[Andrew.Cook]

come on rookie, havent you read the posts. I recommend mentzer hit with pre exhaustion and slower rep speed. Also mentzer took less roids then the others just like dorian took less. Mentzer hit is scientific training and especially tailored for naturals.

Took less steroids... boy, that is such a measurable statement. Where to even start!

HIT isn't bad... per se. I think there are some worthwhile tennants in there. The thing that bugged me most was that it was touted as "one set to failure" but it isn't one set at all. In fact there are LOTS of sets. I did a HIT routine about a year ago now, and the things that I got out of it was that it took too long and didn't cover enough bases... and secondly that I lost strength while on this program. I also lost a ton of body fat, which was pleasant, and I would use something similar if I ever wanted to get cut... but for a long term plan to get big, I thought it was over rated. Mentzer had some good ideas, he really did. However, it was a pretty 'one trick pony' type of plan, and did not exploit all of the ways to induce stress on your muscles.

[SteppinRazor]

I did bench press for about 6 months then I switched up my program I do weighted pushups and pre-ex with flyes. I have noticed the best gains from this rather then when I used bench. Works for me not for everybody

[masterdra329333]

Even though im just beginning to lift seriously, i do notice more isolation with dumbbells, and also when i just recently switched from dumbbell back to barbell i notice a significant increase in my bench press.

[muscleman353]

So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???

For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???

Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???

You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound

Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.

Wayne

lol just cause atg squats work 80 per cent of ur muscle
and leg extension works 1!do i need to say more"?