I'm on my second 5x5 program, and this time around doing a cut. I thought my chest had made significant progress over the last year, but as it turns out(After taking off 10 pounds) it was just masked by fat. Bench press alone just isn't doing it. I especially notice a lacking in thickness.
I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?
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Thread: Bench press ain't cutting it!
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02-21-2006, 06:44 AM #1
Bench press ain't cutting it!
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02-21-2006, 07:31 AM #2
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02-21-2006, 08:04 AM #3
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02-21-2006, 08:14 AM #4Originally Posted by Adamb83
I couldn't even tell you the last time I flat benched and I know I'm not missing out on much. DBs are an excellent tool for building up the chest, especially when pressing on a slight incline.
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02-21-2006, 08:29 AM #5Originally Posted by Adamb83There is no substitute for hard work.....
height- 5'10
weight- 194
bench- 100 lb dumbells x 7
smith machine bench- 265 x 3
deadlift- 255 x 10
current supplements:
-100% whey- post workout
-Twinlab Amino Fuel- pre/post workout
-Met-rx MRP- 1-2 daily
-Cytodine ZMA before bed
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02-21-2006, 08:34 AM #6Originally Posted by Adamb83
Combine 5 set 5 rep bench wide grip, pinky finger on silver rings(most olympic 45lb barbells have these) followed by 3 sets 8-10 rep close grip(index finger on smooth, rest of hand on rough) Incline.
3 days rest then do it again. I see no reason to split up bench and incline, do it on same night.
Secondly, and I've found this works extremely well for me.
If you can do bench for 5 sets x 5 reps, you go up weight.
add 10lbs..you will hit the 3-4 rep range for 5 sets. Do that weight till once again you are doing 5x5, then repeat.
This will add mass and maximum strength. I go up 10lbs every 2-3 weeks with this method, and im not a new lifter.
Works very well for me, good luck.Last edited by VaporV; 02-21-2006 at 08:49 AM.
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02-21-2006, 03:40 PM #7
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02-21-2006, 03:45 PM #8Originally Posted by Adamb83
If your pecs are weak, try doing DECLINE DB presses. At least for a little while. I don't know of a single example of someone who does NOT get pecs from decline db presses. The problem is they work too well and will give you "man boobies"
Use them with discretion.CSCS, ACSM cPT.
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02-21-2006, 04:43 PM #9
Try working your chest directly, you chest muscles are designed to pull your upper arms across your body, and to pull the upper arms from an over head position down, that is the chest muscles prime function, it main function. move your out stretched arms, (like in the fly exersices) right across your body, until your front shoulders touch your chin, whilst holding your chest with the other hand, feel it contracting, now do the same, but pull your arms from an over head position, feel them contract again, now try it with a bench press movement, not much contracting is there, that’s because the bench press is not the chest muscles main function.
So why as I said not try working them directly, as all isolation exersices work the muscle “far” more effectually than and compound movement ever will.
The bent-armed fly isolates your pectorals major, the largest muscles in the chest.
Try this cycle, and you will soon be able to hold a 10 pound plate with your chest.
Use this cycle twice per week for six weeks only, then get back to me.
Fly’s 1 x 30
Straight armed pullover 1 x 15
Decline bench press 1 x 12
Negative only dip 1 x 8
Wayne
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02-21-2006, 06:07 PM #10Originally Posted by waynelucky
*eyeroll*
are you friends with that fish guy? the goofy guy that comes in every now and again, posts some of the most preposterous bullschnitz I've ever seen, then disappears for a week or so?
yeah man. just do isolation exercises. squats, rows, presses...they suck. do extensions, flyes, curls and laterals, and enjoy your 12-year old girlish body.
*shakes head and snorts derisively*
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02-21-2006, 06:26 PM #11Originally Posted by kethnaab
For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???
Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???
You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound
Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.
One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.
Wayne
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02-21-2006, 06:51 PM #12
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02-22-2006, 03:14 AM #13
I gave you my view, in a science orientated way, you two did not, you just said you cant do that, and you gave no explanation, I have you stumped have I not.
I repet my views,
So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???
For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???
Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???
You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound
Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.
One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.
The second of some of the compount movments are, there are some better than others.
Wayne
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02-22-2006, 05:48 AM #14
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02-22-2006, 06:14 AM #15
the "prime function" of the quadriceps is to extend the knee (and in the case of the rectus femoris, perform hip flexion)
during the squat, you extend your knee. during the leg extension, you extend your knee.
when you do a cable crossover or a fly, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.
when you do a bench press, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.
as you can see, BOTH exercises result in the "prime (first) function" being performed. One does it with significantly heavier weight and load as part of a system. The other does it with significanty lighter weight and load, in isolation.
your body does not work in isolation, nor was it designed to work in isolation. It is a system, not a series of disjointed parts.
If you and I were to take a pair of identical twins, put them on identical hypercaloric diets with sufficient macro- and micro-nutrients and train them for a year.
you train yours with...oh, i dunno, a bunch of flyes, lateral raises, crossovers and leg extensions, and I train mine with presses, dips, rows, squats and heavy pulls, guess what?
in a year, your lad will still look like a little girl, mine will be far far more muscular and FAR stronger, and my lad will kick your lad's ass without breaking a sweat.
you wanna do isolations instead of compounds? cool. You honestly want to insist that leg extensions are better than squats? *laughs* cool.
understand that I will ensure everytime I see you make such absurd statements, I will be there to ensure the poor newbs that read this board don't fall prey to your misinformation.
enjoy your supinating cable preacher curls with rotating grip. I'm going to go do some chinups.
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02-22-2006, 07:31 AM #16Originally Posted by wayneluckyRavens fan and Gators fan 4 life
***Florida Gators Crew***
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02-22-2006, 10:45 AM #17
Thank you for the great answer kethnaab, I have not much time tonight but will get back to you tomorrow.
Remember I am talking about hypertrophy only and if you do say the squat for competition, well you have to do squat, squat.
Originally Posted by kethnaab
Mind you I did some compounds are better than others.
Originally Posted by kethnaab
but if you are going to do bench press, have you ever tried the decline bench press, as it puts your chest muscle in relation to you upper arms, in a more favourable line of pull, which uses more of the actual mass of the chest, especially with the DB’s
Originally Posted by kethnaab
Your body involved to work in isolation and compound, and in many other ways.
Originally Posted by kethnaab
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02-22-2006, 10:57 AM #18
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02-22-2006, 10:58 AM #19Originally Posted by waynelucky
Originally Posted by waynelucky
Originally Posted by waynelucky
Originally Posted by waynelucky
If you had to use the same weight on a DB *press* that you do a DB *fly*, then yes, I would agree with you, the flye would be better.
but guess what? I guarantee I'm hitting my pecs harder with 150-lb DB presses than you are hitting your pecs with...I dunno. Whatever you guys do flyes with. *shrugs*
Originally Posted by waynelucky
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02-22-2006, 01:42 PM #20
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02-22-2006, 04:54 PM #21
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02-22-2006, 05:07 PM #22
Let’s get ONE FACT STRAIGHT, YOUR BODY WAS “NOT” DESIGNED, IT INVOLVED, THAT IS YOUR BIG PROBLEM YOU HAVE TO GO ROUND
Why would I pick up a light DB? The entire point of using compounds is to increase load on the muscle and increase tonnage to stress your system as a whole.
If you had to use the same weight on a DB *press* that you do a DB *fly*, then yes, I would agree with you, the flye would be better.
But guess what? I guarantee I'm hitting my pecs harder with 150-lb DB presses than you are hitting your pecs with...I dunno. Whatever you guys do flyes with. *shrugs*
yup. love 'em to death.
You seem to misunderstand the human body, the entire point of using compounds is to increase load on the muscle and increase tonnage to stress your system as a whole, I agree there, so when you increase the load on the DB press what are you achieving,. Only more stress on the triceps, not the chest itself, flys isolates the muscle.
Wayne.Last edited by waynelucky; 02-22-2006 at 05:09 PM.
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02-22-2006, 06:40 PM #23Originally Posted by Adamb83
Your chest is your chest, this is what it looks like and XYZ is how much weight you press for your best set 8 or whatever. Now I can basically guarantee you that if you allow your body to gain weight and significantly increase your best set of 8 then your chest will grow. It's not about how much you press vs. someone else and how they look, it's more about increasing your press and increasing your muscle.
To that end, if you are making progress and bodyweight is increasing, I'd be hesitant to mess with it. You don't say anywhere about your lifts or even specifically how much you press - kind of tough to guage training development with subjective adjectives. I mean if you are pressing 205x8 and squatting 195x8 or some crap like that, don't sub the bench if it's going up, just eat and train you are still working on foundation level stuff. But if you are a bit more advanced and want a change of pace go for something else - it should be a compound lift, I don't even want to get into that ****. And like the bench, the emphasis is on getting better at it over a period. The one issue with dumbells is the weight increments, you are limited to 5lbs increases per hand so 10lbs and of course you can't lift as much total weight anyway in a DB variant (total load being a separate issue) - well, 10lbs is 2.5% of 400lbs so you'd need to be using 200lbs dumbells to keep the percentage. Most people use something about 1/2 at most so what there - 5% a week. It can be tough and add complications. Give it a shot and do it but if you are serious about dumbells you might want to check out platemates or something on those lines.
More than anything though - you need to be increasing your capacity. If you bench 225x8 today and 6 months from now bench 225x8, you have a major problem and you can bet your chest will look almost exactly like it does now. And this is the same for any exercise, you are training not to go in and do stuff or work a bodypart but to get quantifiably better and you choose exercises to get better at that have the greatest impact. There is nothing more to programing than providing methodology relevant to the trainee to allow for systematic progression and improvement. You want to get fundementally better, you don't want to constantly be swapping things around and giving yourself the illusion of improvment just by acclimating or reacclimating to a new lift.Last edited by Madcow2; 02-22-2006 at 07:33 PM.
Training Theory, Info, and Starr/Pendlay 5x5 Info:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1
Direct Table of Contents:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
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02-22-2006, 07:50 PM #24
if you've decided to go with dumbbells for your various presses then you might want to consider this:
you can get a better stretch and squeeze with DB's but what 90% of people don't do is get the full squeeze at the top. just sitting there in your chair put your hands out where they would finish in a flat dumb bell press (the weights would probably be touching). Now give it a squeeze... feels great eh? now spread your hands to where they would be at the end of the flat bench with a barbell... and squeeze, not much right?? Here's the thing that most people dont do, know or realize... put your hands back to the DB finishing spot (about 5-6 inches apart) and squeeze... now turn your hands in as though you're pouring two pitchers of beer (keep squeezing).... feel that?? My trainer taught me that and in six months I've added about 2" to my chest (which refused to grow forever before that).... take it for what it's worth.July24/06:
ht: 5'10"
wt: 192lbs
1 rep max:
squat: 455lbs
bench: 255lbs (poop)
clean: 290lbs (hang clean)
push press: 265lbs
supp: ZMA (Prolab)
video of me doing cleans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8IXSlX9l5c
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02-22-2006, 08:05 PM #25
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, because I started reading most of these responses....but someone likes to hear himself talk. Isolations are good for an alternative, but they're not the solution.
You typically can't go as heavy on an isolation because you are involving the sole body part at work. Therefore, not as much strain is placed upon the muscle, thus not providing an environment to grow better than a compound movement.
Plus, did that same person forget about the growth hormone release in compounds? I have never read or heard....ANYWHERE....that leg extensions produce more GH than squats.
Just my 2 Abes.
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02-22-2006, 08:07 PM #26
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02-22-2006, 08:18 PM #27Originally Posted by waynelucky
Oh to the maker of this thread, do pushups. Yeah sure a lot of guys on here may joke and laugh, whatever. They added 50 lbs to my bench alone. Theyre the most effective tool for building the chest. When regular pushups get easy, put a backpack on and put some weight in it. Weighted pushups may be the best exercise ever. Basically a benchpress but better. The muscle breakdown is the same in both, but since the pushup is a more natural movement to our bodies, the muscle repair is significantly better in the pushup. Also theres this thing you can buy called the power pushup 2 at www.lifelineusa.com. It uses resistance bands. Im going to get one soon, and you should too. Just do bodyweight pushups now, work your way up to 50 straight, and then do 50 everyday for about a week. Then when you can add weight, you can break it down into sets and reps and whatever. But trust me on this, it works.
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02-22-2006, 09:13 PM #28
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02-22-2006, 09:31 PM #29
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02-22-2006, 09:32 PM #30
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