Bench press ain't cutting it!

[Adamb83]

I'm on my second 5x5 program, and this time around doing a cut. I thought my chest had made significant progress over the last year, but as it turns out(After taking off 10 pounds) it was just masked by fat. Bench press alone just isn't doing it. I especially notice a lacking in thickness.

I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?

[VaporV]

Well what is your chest night routine?

[Adamb83]

It's changed a million times. Right now it's the standered 5x5. Which is bench on monday, 5 sets of 5 reps, incline on Wed, 4x5(light), and friday, 5x5 with the last set being a triple.

Strange part is that my chest is one of my strongest areas, but the size of it is embarressing.

[Dominik]

I'm on my second 5x5 program, and this time around doing a cut. I thought my chest had made significant progress over the last year, but as it turns out(After taking off 10 pounds) it was just masked by fat. Bench press alone just isn't doing it. I especially notice a lacking in thickness.

I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?

Have you tried switching to dumbbells? I know Madcow doesn't like people screwing with the program, but I personally think incline DB press (around 15-30°) is the best chest exercise you can do. Form wise: shoulder blades back, chest out, focusing on "squeezing" the weight up with the pecs (horizontal adduction) rather than firing it up from the tris.

I couldn't even tell you the last time I flat benched and I know I'm not missing out on much. DBs are an excellent tool for building up the chest, especially when pressing on a slight incline.

[jns189]

I especially notice a lacking in thickness.

I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?

Since my shouldier surgery 2 years ago I've only used dumbells for flat bench press, and have noticed a considerably better stretch and more isolation than using the barbell. I definately think that you should try using dumbells for flat bench. As far as incline goes, I alternate between dumbells and barbells bi-weekly. Also, you should try tossing in dumbell flys or cable flys too. Looking forward to some rep power

[VaporV]

It's changed a million times. Right now it's the standered 5x5. Which is bench on monday, 5 sets of 5 reps, incline on Wed, 4x5(light), and friday, 5x5 with the last set being a triple.

Strange part is that my chest is one of my strongest areas, but the size of it is embarressing.

Well 2 things.

Combine 5 set 5 rep bench wide grip, pinky finger on silver rings(most olympic 45lb barbells have these) followed by 3 sets 8-10 rep close grip(index finger on smooth, rest of hand on rough) Incline.

3 days rest then do it again. I see no reason to split up bench and incline, do it on same night.

Secondly, and I've found this works extremely well for me.

If you can do bench for 5 sets x 5 reps, you go up weight.

add 10lbs..you will hit the 3-4 rep range for 5 sets. Do that weight till once again you are doing 5x5, then repeat.

This will add mass and maximum strength. I go up 10lbs every 2-3 weeks with this method, and im not a new lifter.

Works very well for me, good luck.

[Adamb83]

Thanks for the tips. I think switching to dumbells could be very useful, actually, since I've trained all my life with the bar. In fact, I have a little disproportion in my right and left pecs, so this could be even more useful... I'll probably give it a try next week.

[Defiant1]

I'm on my second 5x5 program, and this time around doing a cut. I thought my chest had made significant progress over the last year, but as it turns out(After taking off 10 pounds) it was just masked by fat. Bench press alone just isn't doing it. I especially notice a lacking in thickness.

I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?

If your pecs are weak, try doing DECLINE DB presses. At least for a little while. I don't know of a single example of someone who does NOT get pecs from decline db presses. The problem is they work too well and will give you "man boobies"

Use them with discretion.

[waynelucky]

Try working your chest directly, you chest muscles are designed to pull your upper arms across your body, and to pull the upper arms from an over head position down, that is the chest muscles prime function, it main function. move your out stretched arms, (like in the fly exersices) right across your body, until your front shoulders touch your chin, whilst holding your chest with the other hand, feel it contracting, now do the same, but pull your arms from an over head position, feel them contract again, now try it with a bench press movement, not much contracting is there, that’s because the bench press is not the chest muscles main function.

So why as I said not try working them directly, as all isolation exersices work the muscle “far” more effectually than and compound movement ever will.

The bent-armed fly isolates your pectorals major, the largest muscles in the chest.

Try this cycle, and you will soon be able to hold a 10 pound plate with your chest.

Use this cycle twice per week for six weeks only, then get back to me.

Fly’s 1 x 30
Straight armed pullover 1 x 15
Decline bench press 1 x 12
Negative only dip 1 x 8

Wayne

[kethnaab]

all isolation exersices work the muscle “far” more effectually than and compound movement ever will.

which is why leg extensions are so much better than squats for leg development

*eyeroll*

are you friends with that fish guy? the goofy guy that comes in every now and again, posts some of the most preposterous bullschnitz I've ever seen, then disappears for a week or so?

yeah man. just do isolation exercises. squats, rows, presses...they suck. do extensions, flyes, curls and laterals, and enjoy your 12-year old girlish body.

*shakes head and snorts derisively*

[waynelucky]

which is why leg extensions are so much better than squats for leg development

*eyeroll*

are you friends with that fish guy? the goofy guy that comes in every now and again, posts some of the most preposterous bullschnitz I've ever seen, then disappears for a week or so?

yeah man. just do isolation exercises. squats, rows, presses...they suck. do extensions, flyes, curls and laterals, and enjoy your 12-year old girlish body.

*shakes head and snorts derisively*

So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???

For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???

Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???

You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound

Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.

Wayne

[USMARINE8152]

i like isolation exercises but to say that its better then compound??......I havn't really met a person who was big without focusing mainly on compund lifts. Its ok to do isolation maybe last after your compound lifts but that routine you gave him there wayne is well.....never mind..

[waynelucky]

I gave you my view, in a science orientated way, you two did not, you just said you cant do that, and you gave no explanation, I have you stumped have I not.

I repet my views,

So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???

For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???

Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???

You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound

Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.

The second of some of the compount movments are, there are some better than others.

Wayne

[Adamb83]

LOL, well I wasn't planning on removing a compound exercise as important as bench press. Using dumbells sounds like a great idea though, perhaps it will be much more benificial towards me since I have never used them before.

[kethnaab]

the "prime function" of the quadriceps is to extend the knee (and in the case of the rectus femoris, perform hip flexion)

during the squat, you extend your knee. during the leg extension, you extend your knee.

when you do a cable crossover or a fly, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.

when you do a bench press, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.

as you can see, BOTH exercises result in the "prime (first) function" being performed. One does it with significantly heavier weight and load as part of a system. The other does it with significanty lighter weight and load, in isolation.

your body does not work in isolation, nor was it designed to work in isolation. It is a system, not a series of disjointed parts.

If you and I were to take a pair of identical twins, put them on identical hypercaloric diets with sufficient macro- and micro-nutrients and train them for a year.

you train yours with...oh, i dunno, a bunch of flyes, lateral raises, crossovers and leg extensions, and I train mine with presses, dips, rows, squats and heavy pulls, guess what?

in a year, your lad will still look like a little girl, mine will be far far more muscular and FAR stronger, and my lad will kick your lad's ass without breaking a sweat.

you wanna do isolations instead of compounds? cool. You honestly want to insist that leg extensions are better than squats? *laughs* cool.

understand that I will ensure everytime I see you make such absurd statements, I will be there to ensure the poor newbs that read this board don't fall prey to your misinformation.

enjoy your supinating cable preacher curls with rotating grip. I'm going to go do some chinups.

[RavensFan2k3]

I gave you my view, in a science orientated way, you two did not, you just said you cant do that, and you gave no explanation, I have you stumped have I not.

I repet my views,

So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???

For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???

Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???

You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound

Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.

The second of some of the compount movments are, there are some better than others.

Wayne

i dont know what you are talking about. Look at it like this. In basketball you want the 5 players on the court playing in unison as a team(ala compount movements). You dont want them playing as 5 individuals on the court(ala the Lakers of a couple years ago and isolation exercises). You want your muscles to work together to get bigger and stronger not individualize them to make them a bunch of individual strong muscles.

[waynelucky]

Thank you for the great answer kethnaab, I have not much time tonight but will get back to you tomorrow.

Remember I am talking about hypertrophy only and if you do say the squat for competition, well you have to do squat, squat.

the "prime function" of the quadriceps is to extend the knee (and in the case of the rectus femoris, perform hip flexion)

during the squat, you extend your knee. during the leg extension, you extend your knee. .

Your right there but in the squat you also use many many more muscle to help extend the knee, why would you want too use all the other muscles in the squat to do the same thing that the leg extension does, with just about only the quads themselves doing the action ??? You might say you can use more weight in the squat that only proves your brining other muscles in to help them, as it’s the other muscles lifting the heaver weight. Also the lower back fails far before the quads have had a good workout, this does not happen in the leg extension.

Mind you I did some compounds are better than others.

when you do a cable crossover or a fly, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.

when you do a bench press, you bring the humerus from a position of stretch to the midpoint in front of your body, called transverse flexion.

As you can see, BOTH exercises result in the "prime (first) function" being performed. One does it with significantly heavier weight and load as part of a system. The other does it with significanty lighter weight and load, in isolation. .

Pick up a light DB and bench press it, whilst holding your chest with the other arm, now do a fly, “will” find in the fly the whole pectoral contract far far more than in the DB press.

but if you are going to do bench press, have you ever tried the decline bench press, as it puts your chest muscle in relation to you upper arms, in a more favourable line of pull, which uses more of the actual mass of the chest, especially with the DB’s

your body does not work in isolation, nor was it designed to work in isolation. It is a system, not a series of disjointed parts. .

Your body involved to work in isolation and compound, and in many other ways.

If you and I were to take a pair of identical twins, put them on identical hypercaloric diets with sufficient macro- and micro-nutrients and train them for a year.

you train yours with...oh, i dunno, a bunch of flyes, lateral raises, crossovers and leg extensions, and I train mine with presses, dips, rows, squats and heavy pulls, guess what?

in a year, your lad will still look like a little girl, mine will be far far more muscular and FAR stronger, and my lad will kick your lad's ass without breaking a sweat.

you wanna do isolations instead of compounds? cool. You honestly want to insist that leg extensions are better than squats? *laughs* cool.

understand that I will ensure everytime I see you make such absurd statements, I will be there to ensure the poor newbs that read this board don't fall prey to your misinformation.

enjoy your supinating cable preacher curls with rotating grip. I'm going to go do some chinups.

Wayne

[nbk]

how come decline bench is shown in this thread as a must for your chest growth. maybe i read it too quickly. idk.

ive always thought of decline as an inferior exersize to flat and incline. ive always been told that flat bench, incline, and dips were the real mass builders.

[kethnaab]

Your right there but in the squat you also use many many more muscle to help extend the knee, why would you want too use all the other muscles in the squat to do the same thing that the leg extension does, with just about only the quads themselves doing the action ???

because when your body works as a system, as it was designed to do, you are able to work much harder. That's *why* your body is designed as a system. In isolation, nothing will be as strong as it would be if worked together with the bodyparts it was designed to work with. Isolation work is inefficient.

You might say you can use more weight in the squat that only proves your brining other muscles in to help them, as it’s the other muscles lifting the heaver weight.

is it? Do you honestly think that if you squat, you take pressure OFF the quads?

Also the lower back fails

then you have a weak posterior chain, probably from doing damn many leg extensions! Body isn't designed to work in isolation, that is how you develop IMBALANCES that you guys end up doing MORE isolation exercises for.

Pick up a light DB and bench press it,

why would I pick up a light DB? The entire point of using compounds is to increase load on the muscle and increase tonnage to stress your system as a whole.

If you had to use the same weight on a DB *press* that you do a DB *fly*, then yes, I would agree with you, the flye would be better.

but guess what? I guarantee I'm hitting my pecs harder with 150-lb DB presses than you are hitting your pecs with...I dunno. Whatever you guys do flyes with. *shrugs*

but if you are going to do bench press, have you ever tried the decline bench press, as it puts your chest muscle in relation to you upper arms, in a more favourable line of pull, which uses more of the actual mass of the chest, especially with the DB’s

yup. love 'em to death.

[Adamb83]

Update:

I did incline-dumbell press today and was extremely pleased. One of the best workouts I had in a really long time. Not only did I feel it significantly more in my chest, I felt it in my arms and delts much more then ever before. I'll be using this from now on.

[waynelucky]

thats great, try the decline press next time.

Update:

I did incline-dumbell press today and was extremely pleased. One of the best workouts I had in a really long time. Not only did I feel it significantly more in my chest, I felt it in my arms and delts much more then ever before. I'll be using this from now on.

[waynelucky]

Let’s get ONE FACT STRAIGHT, YOUR BODY WAS “NOT” DESIGNED, IT INVOLVED, THAT IS YOUR BIG PROBLEM YOU HAVE TO GO ROUND

Why would I pick up a light DB? The entire point of using compounds is to increase load on the muscle and increase tonnage to stress your system as a whole.



If you had to use the same weight on a DB *press* that you do a DB *fly*, then yes, I would agree with you, the flye would be better.

But guess what? I guarantee I'm hitting my pecs harder with 150-lb DB presses than you are hitting your pecs with...I dunno. Whatever you guys do flyes with. *shrugs*



yup. love 'em to death.

You seem to misunderstand the human body, the entire point of using compounds is to increase load on the muscle and increase tonnage to stress your system as a whole, I agree there, so when you increase the load on the DB press what are you achieving,. Only more stress on the triceps, not the chest itself, flys isolates the muscle.

Wayne.

[Madcow2]

It's changed a million times. Right now it's the standered 5x5. Which is bench on monday, 5 sets of 5 reps, incline on Wed, 4x5(light), and friday, 5x5 with the last set being a triple.

Strange part is that my chest is one of my strongest areas, but the size of it is embarressing.

Now that your thread is a bit trashed, sticking obcessively to one exercise or another isn't the point - mainly I just don't want the nimrods screwing it up since invariably they don't know what they are doing.

Your chest is your chest, this is what it looks like and XYZ is how much weight you press for your best set 8 or whatever. Now I can basically guarantee you that if you allow your body to gain weight and significantly increase your best set of 8 then your chest will grow. It's not about how much you press vs. someone else and how they look, it's more about increasing your press and increasing your muscle.

To that end, if you are making progress and bodyweight is increasing, I'd be hesitant to mess with it. You don't say anywhere about your lifts or even specifically how much you press - kind of tough to guage training development with subjective adjectives. I mean if you are pressing 205x8 and squatting 195x8 or some crap like that, don't sub the bench if it's going up, just eat and train you are still working on foundation level stuff. But if you are a bit more advanced and want a change of pace go for something else - it should be a compound lift, I don't even want to get into that ****. And like the bench, the emphasis is on getting better at it over a period. The one issue with dumbells is the weight increments, you are limited to 5lbs increases per hand so 10lbs and of course you can't lift as much total weight anyway in a DB variant (total load being a separate issue) - well, 10lbs is 2.5% of 400lbs so you'd need to be using 200lbs dumbells to keep the percentage. Most people use something about 1/2 at most so what there - 5% a week. It can be tough and add complications. Give it a shot and do it but if you are serious about dumbells you might want to check out platemates or something on those lines.

More than anything though - you need to be increasing your capacity. If you bench 225x8 today and 6 months from now bench 225x8, you have a major problem and you can bet your chest will look almost exactly like it does now. And this is the same for any exercise, you are training not to go in and do stuff or work a bodypart but to get quantifiably better and you choose exercises to get better at that have the greatest impact. There is nothing more to programing than providing methodology relevant to the trainee to allow for systematic progression and improvement. You want to get fundementally better, you don't want to constantly be swapping things around and giving yourself the illusion of improvment just by acclimating or reacclimating to a new lift.

[ok ok ok]

if you've decided to go with dumbbells for your various presses then you might want to consider this:

you can get a better stretch and squeeze with DB's but what 90% of people don't do is get the full squeeze at the top. just sitting there in your chair put your hands out where they would finish in a flat dumb bell press (the weights would probably be touching). Now give it a squeeze... feels great eh? now spread your hands to where they would be at the end of the flat bench with a barbell... and squeeze, not much right?? Here's the thing that most people dont do, know or realize... put your hands back to the DB finishing spot (about 5-6 inches apart) and squeeze... now turn your hands in as though you're pouring two pitchers of beer (keep squeezing).... feel that?? My trainer taught me that and in six months I've added about 2" to my chest (which refused to grow forever before that).... take it for what it's worth.

[stnspn_44]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, because I started reading most of these responses....but someone likes to hear himself talk. Isolations are good for an alternative, but they're not the solution.
You typically can't go as heavy on an isolation because you are involving the sole body part at work. Therefore, not as much strain is placed upon the muscle, thus not providing an environment to grow better than a compound movement.
Plus, did that same person forget about the growth hormone release in compounds? I have never read or heard....ANYWHERE....that leg extensions produce more GH than squats.
Just my 2 Abes.

[ColonProblems]

I'm on my second 5x5 program, and this time around doing a cut. I thought my chest had made significant progress over the last year, but as it turns out(After taking off 10 pounds) it was just masked by fat. Bench press alone just isn't doing it. I especially notice a lacking in thickness.

I've got to throw something else into the routine, because this just isn't working out right now. Any ideas?

The barbell bench won't do too much for your overall pec development.

Dumbbells, flys, dips, pull overs, cross overs, etc.

[SpiritusSancti]

I gave you my view, in a science orientated way, you two did not, you just said you cant do that, and you gave no explanation, I have you stumped have I not.

I repet my views,

So why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the chest muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ? why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do thirdly ???

For developing the actual quads, then of course the leg extension is the best exercise for it, again, why would you “not” want to do the prime (first) function, the quads muscle was designed too do, for you to gain size there ???, why would you think it grows better with a function it was designed to do secondly ???

Please tell me why you think an exercise that is not the prime function of that muscle will build it more size, why doing the second or third function and brining into other muscles would that muscle grow bigger and stronger ???

You get huge on 60% isolation 40% compound

Can’t reply back right now, going to bed, so it will give you a long time to think, let’s keep this debate nice and friendly all and kethnaab, and hopefully we can learn from each other.

One of the better things in a compound movement rather than an isolation exersices is there is more room for improvement.

The second of some of the compount movments are, there are some better than others.

Wayne

Uh actually the quadriceps were made for pressing upwards, you know climbing mountains, trees, etc. Which is similar to the motions of the squat. It all goes back to our origins when there were cavemen who had to climb for protection. Now I dont know what the hell you do in the real world that is even similar to leg extensions. Second, all the muscles in the body were made to function harmoniously. Isolating a muscle is just plain stupid. How do you know what the prime function of the chest is? Were you informed by someone who obviously has this information that no one else is really aware of? Because let me tell you, muscles do not work that way. There's no one specific movement they are supposed to be used for. Thats why there are different exercises, to challenge your muscles in different ways so it grows larger. For the quads there are squats, but there are also lunges, which work your legs in different ways. Stick to doing dumbbell flyes though if thats what youd like, just dont complain when you flye about 100 pounds but cant benchpress or do anything functional with your chest.



Oh to the maker of this thread, do pushups. Yeah sure a lot of guys on here may joke and laugh, whatever. They added 50 lbs to my bench alone. Theyre the most effective tool for building the chest. When regular pushups get easy, put a backpack on and put some weight in it. Weighted pushups may be the best exercise ever. Basically a benchpress but better. The muscle breakdown is the same in both, but since the pushup is a more natural movement to our bodies, the muscle repair is significantly better in the pushup. Also theres this thing you can buy called the power pushup 2 at www.lifelineusa.com. It uses resistance bands. Im going to get one soon, and you should too. Just do bodyweight pushups now, work your way up to 50 straight, and then do 50 everyday for about a week. Then when you can add weight, you can break it down into sets and reps and whatever. But trust me on this, it works.

[kethnaab]

The barbell bench won't do too much for your overall pec development.

patently false

Dumbbells, flys, dips, pull overs, cross overs, etc.

3 of the exercises you listed are worthless for mass. I guess 2 outta 5 ain't bad?

[ColonProblems]

patently false



3 of the exercises you listed are worthless for mass. I guess 2 outta 5 ain't bad?

Thank you. That's a 40 on a test

[ColonProblems]

patently false



3 of the exercises you listed are worthless for mass. I guess 2 outta 5 ain't bad?

But yeah, the barbell bench will sure fire add the mass to those pecs!