Casein - Promotes all stages of the cancer process.

[Dr.Dave1]

Dr.P makes a very good point. It could very well be due to chronic irritation. This seems to be more of an artifact of western diet than casein. As he mentioned if this is the risk they are citing then the additional danger this puts on the individual is very minimal. If you look at the increased risk of adenocarcinoma associated w/ extreme chronic irritation states like Barrett's eso****us (w/ low grade dysplasia), Crohn's or ulcerative colitis (these are some nasty looking guts do a google image search if you're interested) there is only an increased risk of ~5-10% compared to the general population over a 10 yr period. As Dr.P said eat some oats w/ your casein

Edit: Were the rats getting GI cancer?

[Redbaron]

Thanks for the reply DR.P,

to answer the question above, the rats were given a specialized carcinogen to start cancer in the liver. One group was fead 20% casein diet the other was fed 5% casein diet. The entire group with the 20% casein diet died of liver cancer while none of the 5% group died from liver cancer.

As I look more into this I find that this study might be statistically evident but I think it brings up more questions then answers. Its a very new topic and just the first step in the right direction.

[Captainobvious99]

Agreed, I think they should use this for marketing . . . "Casein, it makes your muscles grow like cancer"

LOL, nice

[rollo]

anything more on this?

[Glaive]

There are so many foods that can cause problems when not eaten within the context of a healthy diet. We need protein, carbohydrates, and fats, and when one or more is very disproportionately out of balance problems occur. You can't do a lab test and see a connection between something and cancer without then applying it IN CONTEXT to life. If you have people who eat a huge amount of meat in their diets, for instance, and also have extremely high instances of heart disease and osteoporosis it is irresponsible to say that eating large amounts of meat causes those two health issues when further research might cause you to see that another group of people living elsewhere consumes an equally high amount of meat but alongside a large amount of fibrous vegetables and is far more active, and has a comparitively small rate of heart disease and osteoporosis. This would seem to indicate that a particular dietary imbalance is the root cause, not one specific food or group of foods.

Similarly, assuming one is to assume that everything in this study was conducted correctly, it simply proves that casein can be carcinogenic UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES. So can half the damn things you eat, and most of the ones that don't cause cancer can cause something else.

Hell, a sedentary lifestyle is responsible for the "obesity epidemic" in this country, yet excessive exercise can easily result in injury or death.

It's all about balance and moderation and keeping things in perspective.

Fun fact: Ronnie Coleman's biceps are actually giant casein-induced tumors. True story.

[Ausswolf]

Thanks for the reply DR.P,

to answer the question above, the rats were given a specialized carcinogen to start cancer in the liver. One group was fead 20% casein diet the other was fed 5% casein diet. The entire group with the 20% casein diet died of liver cancer while none of the 5% group died from liver cancer.

As I look more into this I find that this study might be statistically evident but I think it brings up more questions then answers. Its a very new topic and just the first step in the right direction.

Wish they would do more studies on this instead of research into magic anti fat slob pills or whatever.
Is this China Study the only research out there on casein causing cancer?

From what I'm reading, casein doesn't cause cancer in the first place, but in rats that were already at risk it promoted the growth of cancer... just as it promotes muscle growth. So it building muscle therefore carcinogenic?
It doesnt suprise me the soy protein and vegetable diet didnt grow cancer, most vegans ive seen look like their dieing of malnutrition, let alone growing an ounce of mucle or cancer.

[Ausswolf]

A study from this year:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en..._uids=17430183


A Role for Milk Proteins and their Peptides in Cancer Prevention.

Parodi PW.

Dairy Australia, Human Nutrition and Health Research, Melbourne, Australia. peterparodi@uq.net.au.

A role for the amount and type of dietary protein in the etiology of cancer has not been studied extensively. Nevertheless, there is no compelling evidence from epidemiological studies to indicate that protein, at levels usually consumed, is a risk factor for cancer. On the other hand, animal studies suggest that certain peptides and amino acids derived from dietary proteins may influence carcinogenesis. The predominant protein in milk, casein, its peptides, but not liberated amino acids, have antimutagenic properties. Animal models, usually for colon and mammary tumorigenesis, nearly always show that whey protein is superior to other dietary proteins for suppression of tumour development. This benefit is attributed to its high content of cystine/cysteine and gamma-glutamylcyst(e)ine dipeptides, which are efficient substrates for the synthesis of glutathione. Glutathione is an ubiquitous cellular antioxidant that directly or through its associated enzymes destroys reactive oxygen species, detoxifies carcinogens, maintains proteins in a reduced state and ensures a competent immune system. Various experiments showed that tumour prevention by dietary whey protein was accompanied by increased glutathione levels in serum and tissues as well as enhanced splenic lymphocyte proliferation, ****ocytosis and natural killer, T helper and cytotoxic T cell activity. Whey protein components, beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin and serum albumin were studied infrequently, but results suggest they have anticancer potential. The minor component lactoferrin has received the most attention; it inhibits intestinal tumours and perhaps tumours at other sites. Lactoferrin acts by induction of apoptosis, inhibition of angiogenesis, modulation of carcinogen metabolising enzymes and perhaps acting as an iron scavenger. Supplementing cows with selenium increases the content of selenoproteins in milk, which on isolation inhibited colon tumorigenesis in rats.



Might just stick with Whey from now on? :/

[v4lu3s]

If you want to understand science....read science.....
if you want to understand propaganda read The China Study.
The China Study is long on taking a strong position, but short on peer reviewed science. Does it not seem suspicious that the author is a strong supporter of vegetarian diet? I bet people are also not aware that the Masai, who subsist primarily on cattle, particularly blood, meat and...you guessed it...milk of the cattle. They have been show to have a less than 5% incidence of heart disease.
Anyway while there is no doubt much of interest in the China Study just do not confuse it with science, there is a an agenda behind it, and it is not an agenda that has the scientific method behind it.

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.co...asterjohn.html is a well written response to the author of the China Study "bashing" a review of the book. One thing to remember though, the review/response is written from a perspective that is opposite that of the China Study....

[Interlocutor]

the results from the book "The China Study" probably have to be consumed with a very large grain of salt.

see:

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-8e.shtml
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.co...asterjohn.html

Edit: you were faster, lol. but you are correct: the agenda of the author of the book is often overlooked.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

[user5160515874]

whew, this was starting to scare me. I like milk.

[G.W. Hayduke]

Forget that milk.

Quality milk protein isolate on the other hand... that's a different story.

[nik05n]

qokokok

[siersy]

man there is 2 current affairs programs in my country that always crap on about how soy gives you cancer... particulary breast cancer in women. why is it that cancer rates are rising i wish we could go back to the old days when cancer didnt exist (well not in our minds anyway) we could at least have piece of mind to eat or drink anything we like without worrying about cancer. worrying probably is more likely to give you cancer through stress than caesein for example.... of course in my opinion.

[bigjake64]

Agreed, I think they should use this for marketing . . . "Casein, it makes your muscles grow like cancer"

Hahaha, I love it!!!
- it would make me buy it

[isdatzo]

I Have been reading the book "The China Study" which is considered the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted.

Anyways one of the biggest points in the book is how Casein promotes cancer. Casein makes up 87% percent of cow milk protien.

Casein is the predominant phosphoprotein found in fresh milk and we are chuging this back in concentrated form like there is no tommrow??

"
The Cancer Casein Connection

In fact, the connection between casein and cancer was so profound that the scientists could literally turn cancer growth on and off in the laboratory animals, like a light switch, simply by altering the level of casein protein in their diets. Interestingly, they also found that feeding the animals the same levels of plant based protein (gluten and soy) did not at all promote cancer growth.
"

Im just fresh onto this topic and I will contrubte as I find out more, If any one else has anything to add please do, It is defently something we should be concerned about..

When I do a Medline search using the words: "campbell cancer casein", I get 18 hits.
Let's take a look shall we...


Number of human in vivo studies: 0.
Four of the studies were performed by Campbell's of which the initials don't match TC (or TM), leaving 14 studies (under these search terms: "cancer casein "Campbell TC"[Author]").
Study desing used: Let's just say the man was seriously interested in rat liver.

Excluding the word casein and searching for: "cancer "Campbell TC"[Author]", gives me 52 hits.
None of the studies examined milk, meat, eggs, or fat in relation to cancer in humans.
None of the studies examining any dietary variable in humans carried a clinically relevant design (meta-analysis, systematic review, randomized, prospective, or case-control).


Now here's a few questions:
-Did The book state they systematically collected and reviewed all available information? If not: trashcan!
-Did The book use important clinical study designs (prospective/cohort, and case-control) examining milk/cheese consumption in relation to cancer risk, or were only less relevant studies used (ecologic, animal)? For the latter: trashcan!
-Does the book separate data of milk from meat? If not: trashcan!

Please give us some specific information:
Does the book state milk increases cancer risk? If so, at what sites.
Does the book state milk increases risk of diabetes or cardiovascular disease?

[isdatzo]

It's not the casein, it's the passage or transit time through the gastrointestinal tract that plays a pivotal role in tumorigenesis. A diet rich an (saturated) fats and slow digestible proteins and a lack of fibres leads to very long transit times. This - in turn - increases the duration of contact between irritating substances and the collorectal mucosa, which displays kinda "chronic irritation". Chronic irritation leads to local inflammatory processes, which - in turn - are carcinogenic in the long run.
A diet that is based on animal products rich in slowly digestible fats and proteins and lacking fibres will increase the risk of colorectal (and possibly other) tumors. Add some oats to your casein dring and you will be fine.

Would that suggest milk may increase risk of colon cancer?

[Dr.Dave1]

When I do a Medline search using the words: "campbell cancer casein", I get 18 hits.
Let's take a look shall we...


Number of human in vivo studies: 0.
Four of the studies were performed by Campbell's of which the initials don't match TC (or TM), leaving 14 studies (under these search terms: "cancer casein "Campbell TC"[Author]").
Study desing used: Let's just say the man was seriously interested in rat liver.

Excluding the word casein and searching for: "cancer "Campbell TC"[Author]", gives me 52 hits.
None of the studies examined milk, meat, eggs, or fat in relation to cancer in humans.
None of the studies examining any dietary variable in humans carried a clinically relevant design (meta-analysis, systematic review, randomized, prospective, or case-control).


Now here's a few questions:
-Did The book state they systematically collected and reviewed all available information? If not: trashcan!
-Did The book use important clinical study designs (prospective/cohort, and case-control) examining milk/cheese consumption in relation to cancer risk, or were only less relevant studies used (ecologic, animal)? For the latter: trashcan!
-Does the book separate data of milk from meat? If not: trashcan!

Please give us some specific information:
Does the book state milk increases cancer risk? If so, at what sites.
Does the book state milk increases risk of diabetes or cardiovascular disease?

buy it and let us know what you find

[AronP24]

next they're gonna tell me that the 3 pack of lucky strikes they gave me on the playground is gonna give me cancer too...sheesh

[DRP7]

Would that suggest milk may increase risk of colon cancer?

good question. the data that I have seen appears to be not conclusive. according to the following analyses milk consumption appears not to be a strong risk factor for colorectal cancer. interestingly, the first study by Gallus et al suggests that whole milk may have opposite effects on colon / rectum cancer when compared to skimmed milk.

Cancer Causes Control. 2006 May;17(4):429-37. Links
Milk, dairy products and cancer risk (Italy).Gallus S, Bravi F, Talamini R, Negri E, Montella M, Ramazzotti V, Franceschi S, Giacosa A, La Vecchia C.
Istituto di Ricerche Farmacologiche Mario Negri, Via Eritrea 62, 20157, Milan, Italy. gallus@marionegri.it

BACKGROUND: Inconclusive information is available on the potential role of milk and dairy products on the risk of cancer at several sites. METHODS: We analyzed data from a large and integrated network of hospital-based case-control studies in Italy on cancers of the oral cavity and pharynx (598 cases, 1491 controls), oeso****us (304 cases, 743 controls), colorectum (1953 cases, 4154 controls), larynx (460 cases, 1088 controls), breast (2569 cases, 2588 controls), ovary (1031 cases, 2411 controls) and prostate (1294 cases, 1451 controls). RESULTS: Multivariate odds ratio (OR) for the highest consumption level of any type of milk was 0.94 (95% confidence interval, CI: 0.61-1.33) for cancers of the oral cavity and pharynx, 1.20 (95% CI: 0.76-1.90) for oeso****eal, 0.77 (95% CI: 0.62-0.96) for colon, 0.80 (95% CI: 0.60-1.05) for rectal, 0.83 (95% CI: 0.56-1.21) for laryngeal, 0.91 (95% CI: 0.76-1.10) for breast, 0.89 (95% CI: 0.68-1.15) for ovarian and 1.08 (95% CI: 0.84-1.37) for prostate cancer. A significant trend in risk was found for colon cancer only. Inverse associations were observed between consumption of skim milk and cancers of colon (OR=0.84; 95% CI: 0.73-0.97), rectum (OR=0.76; 95% CI: 0.64-0.91), breast (OR=0.87; 95% CI: 0.77-0.98) and ovary (OR=0.77; 95% CI: 0.66-0.91). Conversely, whole milk consumption was directly associated with cancer of the rectum (OR=1.22; 95% CI: 1.03-1.44) and ovary (OR=1.25; 95% CI: 1.07-1.46). High consumption of cheese was inversely related to colon cancer risk (OR=0.80; 95% CI: 0.67-0.95). CONCLUSIONS: There was a modest direct association between milk and dairy products and prostate cancer, and a moderate inverse one for colorectal cancer. However, our findings indicate that milk and dairy products are not strong risk indicators for any of the cancers considered.

PMID: 16596295 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004 Jul 7;96(13):1015-22. Links
Erratum in:
J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004 Nov 17;96(22):1724.
Dairy foods, calcium, and colorectal cancer: a pooled analysis of 10 cohort studies.Cho E, Smith-Warner SA, Spiegelman D, Beeson WL, van den Brandt PA, Colditz GA, Folsom AR, Fraser GE, Freudenheim JL, Giovannucci E, Goldbohm RA, Graham S, Miller AB, Pietinen P, Potter JD, Rohan TE, Terry P, Toniolo P, Virtanen MJ, Willett WC, Wolk A, Wu K, Yaun SS, Zeleniuch-Jacquotte A, Hunter DJ.
Channing Laboratory, Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA. eunyoung.cho@channing.harvard.edu

BACKGROUND: Studies in animals have suggested that calcium may reduce the risk of colorectal cancer. However, results from epidemiologic studies of intake of calcium or dairy foods and colorectal cancer risk have been inconclusive. METHODS: We pooled the primary data from 10 cohort studies in five countries that assessed usual dietary intake by using a validated food frequency questionnaire at baseline. For most studies, follow-up was extended beyond that in the original publication. The studies included 534 536 individuals, among whom 4992 incident cases of colorectal cancer were diagnosed between 6 and 16 years of follow-up. Pooled multivariable relative risks for categories of milk intake and quintiles of calcium intake and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) were calculated. All statistical tests were two-sided. RESULTS: Milk intake was related to a reduced risk of colorectal cancer. Compared with the lowest category of intake (<70 g/day), relative risks of colorectal cancer for increasing categories (70-174, 175-249, and > or =250 g/day) of milk intake were 0.94 (95% CI = 0.86 to 1.02), 0.88 (95% CI = 0.81 to 0.96), and 0.85 (95% CI = 0.78 to 0.94), respectively (P(trend)<.001). Calcium intake was also inversely related to the risk of colorectal cancer. The relative risk for the highest versus the lowest quintile of intake was 0.86 (95% CI = 0.78 to 0.95; P(trend) =.02) for dietary calcium and 0.78 (95% CI = 0.69 to 0.88; P(trend)<.001) for total calcium (combining dietary and supplemental sources). These results were consistent across studies and sex. The inverse association for milk was limited to cancers of the distal colon (P(trend)<.001) and rectum (P(trend) =.02). CONCLUSION: Higher consumption of milk and calcium is associated with a lower risk of colorectal cancer.

PMID: 15240785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

however, milk is a very complex "mixture", consisting of fatty acids, CLA, different protein fractions, minerals, growth and signalling factors, hormones etc etc etc. some of these factors are known for their anti-tumor effects (e.g. Vit. D, CLA, whey). Casein is just one protein fraction from milk and even if as such casein may have pro-carcinogenic effects in animal experiments, the mentioned epidemiological studies give little support for an extrapolation of casein effects to whole milk effects - most likely due to an interaction between casein and the many other constituents of milk.

[isdatzo]

good question. the data that I have seen appears to be not conclusive. according to the following analyses milk consumption appears not to be a strong risk factor for colorectal cancer. interestingly, the first study by Gallus et al suggests that whole milk may have opposite effects on colon / rectum cancer when compared to skimmed milk.

Look harder!
Remember the evidence pyramid?



Do a Pubmed search using the search term:
milk cancer
Both to limit the amount of hits, and to get the most relevant data, add another word as search term based on relevance of the evidence pyramid!
-I always start with "systematic" since more systematic reviews than meta-analysis' have been conducted.
-For dietary variables little to no data exists about long-term health effects from randomized trials.
-If you still find no data, the following word - added as a search term - would be "prospective", since you can find more hits using the word prospective than using "cohort".
-And so on, down the pyramid we go. Will win you every single discussion (based on clinical relevance) as long as you systematically review all studies based on the search terms you use

You will know the answer in 10 minutes (regarding some specific cancer types that is). And this answer is backed up by the WCRF who did an even more thorough search.

however, milk is a very complex "mixture", consisting of fatty acids, CLA, different protein fractions, minerals, growth and signalling factors, hormones etc etc etc. some of these factors are known for their anti-tumor effects (e.g. Vit. D, CLA, whey). Casein is just one protein fraction from milk and even if as such casein may have pro-carcinogenic effects in animal experiments, the mentioned epidemiological studies give little support for an extrapolation of casein effects to whole milk effects - most likely due to an interaction between casein and the many other constituents of milk.

Exactly! That's why the theoretical data about casein is irrelevant to the general public.

If we want information about milk consumption, we look for studies examining milk in relation to health.
If we want information about casein consumption, we look for studies examining casein (supplements) in relation to health.

[DRP7]

Exactly! That's why the theoretical data about casein is irrelevant to the general public.

well, the 'general public' here at bb.com is actually a target group for supplemental protein, including casein concentrate / isolate powders. and it could potentially make a difference if you get your protein from whole (or skimmed) milk or from isolated casein.

[WillBrink]

I Have been reading the book "The China Study" which is considered the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted.

By who? The author of that study is an anti meat vege type BTW.

[Elliptical Envy]

That pyramid is filled with pretty colors.

[SaintGadsden]

I Have been reading the book "The China Study" which is considered the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted.

Anyways one of the biggest points in the book is how Casein promotes cancer. Casein makes up 87% percent of cow milk protien.

Casein is the predominant phosphoprotein found in fresh milk and we are chuging this back in concentrated form like there is no tommrow??

"
The Cancer Casein Connection

In fact, the connection between casein and cancer was so profound that the scientists could literally turn cancer growth on and off in the laboratory animals, like a light switch, simply by altering the level of casein protein in their diets. Interestingly, they also found that feeding the animals the same levels of plant based protein (gluten and soy) did not at all promote cancer growth.
"

Im just fresh onto this topic and I will contrubte as I find out more, If any one else has anything to add please do, It is defently something we should be concerned about..

Utter quackery...how does this garbage originate?

[Anssi Manninen]

I Have been reading the book "The China Study" which is considered the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted.

Its loaded with utter BS

[isdatzo]

I had to kick this topic since I finished a systematic review of dairy in relation to colorectal cancer:
http://canceranddiet.nl/colorectal_c...ic_review.html


OBJECTIVE: To review all prospective studies which published information about:
a) total dairy,
b) eggs,
c) or specific dairy items,
and their relationship with colorectal, colon, and rectum cancer.
DATA SOURCE: I searched the Pubmed database (January 1966 to December 14, 2007) for relevant studies using any of the following keywords: dairy, milk, yoghurt, cream, egg, eggs, cheese, butter, margarine, diet, and dietary combined with the word cancer. Prospective studies published in the English language were included.
RESULTS: Data about 25 cohorts met the inclusion criteria:
1) Total disease risk.
Ten studies (11 cohorts) combining 5,321 cases provided information about total dairy in relation to colorectal cancer risk. Though most RRs for total dairy were < 1, significance was reached in only 2 studies combining 1,379 cases. No evidence was found that total dairy fat increases colorectal cancer risk among 4 studies.
A pooled analysis of 10 studies and an additional 9 studies (8.980 cases) provided information about total milk in relation to colorectal cancer risk. No study found any significantly or nonsignificantly increased risk. Data of studies which stratified risk by cancer site (colon vs rectum) is presented: The pooled analysis and 4 out of 5 studies found a protective effect against colon cancer risk. The pooled analysis found a significant protective effect against rectal cancer risk, but the remaining 3 studies did not.
A pooled analysis of 9 studies and an additional 6 studies (5,198 cases) provided information about cheese in relation to colorectal cancer risk. Of total cheese, the pooled analysis found a weak increased colorectal cancer risk which tended to be stronger for colon than for rectal cancer. Two out of the remaining five studies found an increased colon cancer risk. But of cottage cheese, the pooled analysis and both remaining studies found a decreased colorectal cancer risk.
A pooled analysis of 8 studies and an additional 3 studies (4,681 cases) provided information about yoghurt in relation to colorectal cancer risk. No study found any significant or nonsignificant association with risk.
Data about butter and cream in relation to colorectal cancer is limited (A pooled analysis for butter/A pooled analysis and 1 additional study for cream). No significant relations were found in the pooled analysis.
Four studies provided information about eggs in relation to colorectal. Though all available RRs were above 1, no study found a significantly increased risk.
2) Advanced-stage disease risk.
No prospective study provided information about any of the variables in relation to advanced-stage or metastatic cancer risk.
3) Mortality risk.
One study provided information about dairy products (defined as milk + ice cream) in relation to colorectal cancer mortality. It found a nonsignificantly decreased risk.
Three studies provided information about milk in relation to colorectal cancer mortality. No study found a significant association.
Two studies privided information about cheese in relation to colorectal cancer mortality. One of the studies found an increased female rectal cancer mortality risk.
One study provided information about yoghurt in relation to colorectal cancer mortality. It found a decreased male rectal cancer mortality risk.
Three studies provided information about eggs in relation to colorectal cancer mortality. Two studies found an increased trend in total colorectal cancer mortality. The remaining study found an increased male colon cancer mortality risk only.
CONCLUSION: Prospective studies suggest that total dairy may decrease colorectal cancer risk. A probabe protective effect of total milk against rectal cancer - and even more consistently - against colon cancer risk is suggested. Total cheese may increase colon cancer risk, while there is consistent evidence that cottage/ricotta cheese decreases colorectal cancer risk. No association between yoghurt and colorectal cancer risk is found consistently. Data of the relation between butter,cream or eggs and colorectal cancer risk is to limited to come to a conclusion.
Little data is available about colorectal cancer mortality. It is possible that eggs increase mortality risk.



I found it to be of interest to this debate because of the following data I encountered:

Cottage cheese is a cheese curd product with a mild flavor. It is drained, but not pressed so some whey remains. The curd is usually washed to remove acidity giving sweet curd cheese. It is not aged or colored. Different styles of cottage cheese are made from milks with different fat levels and in small curd or large curd preparations. Cottage cheese which is pressed becomes hoop cheese, farmer cheese, pot cheese or queso blanco.

It is also eaten in salads, with fruit or as an ingredient in recipes like jello salad and various desserts. Also, it can be used to replace grated cheese or ricotta cheese in most recipes (such as Lasagna). It is popular among dieters and some health food devotees. Cottage cheese is a favorite food among bodybuilders for its high content of casein protein while being relatively low in fat.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_cheese

[An Inconvenient Bro]

[Skigazzi]

The China Study is a crock of **** IMO..and in the opinion of a lot of other people too.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

The China Study is a crock of **** IMO..and in the opinion of a lot of other people too.

including Mother Nature

China makes cheap ass whey. nuff said

[Skigazzi]

including Mother Nature

China makes cheap ass whey. nuff said

1) Don't f*** with Mother Nature...

2) But chinese whey might be tainted with GHB....and thats tainted with GHB..and thats not bad in my book...