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  1. #1
    Registered User hithardUK's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Long Term ECA/Thermogenic USE?

    I have experimented (within recommended doses) with Thermogenics over the last year, both ephedra and non-ephedra. I would say that the experience has been positive: giving me more confidence, improving my concentration, helping me focus with training and of course helping me get and stay lean.

    Because I have had almost no negative side-effects..
    The big question is.. how safe are these products in the long-term??

    When using them as recommended within the dose range, cycling when necessary, what effect do they have on one's health?? Can they deteriorate internal organs.. the heart? the stomach? the liver? the kidneys?

    Ok so below I have the THEORY supporting the long-term use of ECA, of course I understand everyone is different, for some ECA is a terrible product and for me it has so far proven a solution. But I'd really like to hear your personal opinions and experiences...

    Enjoy the articles if you haven't already found them!!

    An article stating the long-term use of an ECA stack is the best "weight loss" solution for people with a noradrenaline and adrenaline deficiency:

    http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm

    Another article supporting the long-term use of ECA:

    http://www.ironmag.com/archive/ironm...ca_cycling.htm

    A great FAQ on Thermogenesis:

    http://www.brunnerbiz.com/thermogenesis2.html
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  2. #2
    Registered User korexite's Avatar
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    I have been running thermorexin and EC stack rotated every 2-3 weeks for the last couple years. My health is excellent.
    Fat burners without a good diet and exercise program are just expresso replacements.
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  3. #3
    Registered User hithardUK's Avatar
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    korexite: Do you take any breaks off stimulants??

    I have always had low adrenal levels, and I find some stimulation helps me amazingly! As soon as I get off, my mind slows down, concentration disappears, i put on weight very easily, my muscular gains diminish, my mood drops, allergies return, dry skin, etc....

    I took about 6 months off last year, and as soon as I started taking STACKER 2: EPHEDRA FREE, which is a weak stimulant (Caffeine/Guggl) I felt almost ecstatic. My life transformed, and I started looking into all sorts of reasons why my body worked so well while stimulated.

    The thing is, I dont seem to get burnt out, I can use a mild stimulants non-stop. When I took an ECA: 30mg Ephedrine HCL / 200mg Caffeine /100mg Aspirin, this was great initially but eventually tired me out. When I returned to a milder stimulant, my energy seemed to balance out again after a week or so.

    My theory is that stimulants are correcting my low-adrenal levels, and cycling is only necessary when I am overstimulated. (This is what DRUMLIB argues) Does anyone else experience similar results? If so what products do you recommend?
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  4. #4
    Registered User stahlhart's Avatar
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    Do some research on Ephedrine HCL's effect on the prostate gland, if you are male.

    C.K.
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    There is a side effect that I know of.

    Have you ever seen the middle aged man with a HUGE stomach, like he is pregnant and he isnt fat anywhere else Just in his adomin.

    Well ECA's main ingrediant is caffeine. Long term use of caffein can increase cortisol levels. Cortisol levels, if high enough, cause the breakdown of healthy muscle tissue ( oppoisite of what It usually does by breaking down broken muscle tissue) and increasing fat in the abdomin region. Now, these middle aged man, ask them if they drink coffee everysingle day ? most say yes, coffe = caffeine, lots of caffeine over a long period of time = increase cortisol levels.

    "Coffee drinking and caffeine intake stimulate the cascade of hormones and increase levels of cortisol"
    http://www.teeccino.com/stress.aspx

    That is why I take 7-OH whenever I take my ECA stack
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  6. #6
    Registered User stahlhart's Avatar
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    Post

    Originally Posted by sst0cki
    There is a side effect that I know of.

    Have you ever seen the middle aged man with a HUGE stomach, like he is pregnant and he isnt fat anywhere else Just in his adomin.

    Well ECA's main ingrediant is caffeine. Long term use of caffein can increase cortisol levels. Cortisol levels, if high enough, cause the breakdown of healthy muscle tissue ( oppoisite of what It usually does by breaking down broken muscle tissue) and increasing fat in the abdomin region. Now, these middle aged man, ask them if they drink coffee everysingle day ? most say yes, coffe = caffeine, lots of caffeine over a long period of time = increase cortisol levels.

    "Coffee drinking and caffeine intake stimulate the cascade of hormones and increase levels of cortisol"
    http://www.teeccino.com/stress.aspx

    That is why I take 7-OH whenever I take my ECA stack

    I've been drinking caffeine almost daily for more than 25 years, and have visible abdominals now, and am 45. And that link is to a site that also happens to sell decaffeinated beverages.

    It might be true for some people, but be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. I do feel bad for those guys who have that visceral gut, though. Seems like they totally bust their butts at the gym trying to get rid of it, and never succeed. Genetic curse.

    C.K.
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  7. #7
    Banned sst0cki's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stahlhart
    I've been drinking caffeine almost daily for more than 25 years, and have visible abdominals now, and am 45. And that link is to a site that also happens to sell decaffeinated beverages.

    It might be true for some people, but be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. I do feel bad for those guys who have that visceral gut, though. Seems like they totally bust their butts at the gym trying to get rid of it, and never succeed. Genetic curse.

    C.K.
    I was always under the impression caffeine increases cortisol levels. My teacher who has My doctor says it does. And my teachers who have phd's in sports excerses, nutrition, ect..

    consider yourself lucky
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  8. #8
    Registered User NDNBuilding's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sst0cki
    I was always under the impression caffeine increases cortisol levels. My teacher who has My doctor says it does. And my teachers who have phd's in sports excerses, nutrition, ect..

    consider yourself lucky
    Consider himself lucky of what?

    There is no figures for the increase in the levels, and not only that but the research done is clearly done in the interests of that particular company. On top of that, I do not care what your teacher or doctor says. These are the same people that advise against creatine and proper protein supplimentation. I'd rather trust results.
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  9. #9
    Barefooted HomeGym Lifter new2lifting's Avatar
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    here are some links

    http://www.wonderdrug.com/what/art.htm

    Long-term aspirin use may be associated with side effects. These may include increased or prolonged bleeding, stomach or intestinal, and stomach ulcers. For most people, however, long-term aspirin use is safe when directed and monitored by a doctor.

    http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../321/7270/1183

    Conclusions: Long term therapy with aspirin is associated with a significant increase in the incidence of gastrointestinal haemorrhage. No evidence exists that reducing the dose or using modified release formulations would reduce the incidence of gastrointestinal haemorrhage.

    http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/ep...alsummary.html

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is issuing a final regulation declaring dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the FD&C Act) because these dietary supplements present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury under the conditions of use recommended or suggested in labeling, or if no conditions of use are suggested or recommended in labeling, under ordinary conditions of use. Most dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids are used for weight loss or enhancement of athletic performance.

    We have concluded that dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids pose a risk of serious adverse events, including heart attack, stroke, and death, and that these risks are unreasonable in light of any benefits that may result from the use of these products. This action is taken under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA) which amended the FD&C Act.

    DSHEA grants FDA the authority to take action against a dietary supplement under certain circumstances, including when the product presents a significant risk, an unreasonable risk, or an imminent hazard, does not comply with good manufacturing practices, or makes an unsubstantiated structure-function claim. The final regulation that FDA is issuing today applies the unreasonable risk standard to dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by stahlhart
    Do some research on Ephedrine HCL's effect on the prostate gland, if you are male.

    C.K.
    Perhaps you could point us to a link, or tell us what you've heard about ECA's effect on prostate glands? I'd be interested in finding out more...thanks.
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  11. #11
    Registered User stahlhart's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dcarterc
    Perhaps you could point us to a link, or tell us what you've heard about ECA's effect on prostate glands? I'd be interested in finding out more...thanks.
    Here's a few. You can locate more by simply Googling "ephedrine prostate":

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum//...=ST&f=1&t=2741
    http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr97064a.html
    http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/8850-2.asp

    edit: the Mind And Miscle link is either broken or requires registration to view now, which is strange because it just worked for me a little while ago. Here's a few more:

    http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=22960
    http://www.natural-good-health.info/prostate.htm
    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/pr...ad.php?t=58694

    edit: now it's working again.

    C.K.
    Last edited by stahlhart; 02-16-2006 at 02:47 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by NDNBuilding
    Consider himself lucky of what?

    There is no figures for the increase in the levels, and not only that but the research done is clearly done in the interests of that particular company. On top of that, I do not care what your teacher or doctor says. These are the same people that advise against creatine and proper protein supplimentation. I'd rather trust results.

    Alright then appearently a doctor's and people with phd's dont know what the **** there talking about ? ****ing canadian
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  13. #13
    Registered User NDNBuilding's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sst0cki
    Alright then appearently a doctor's and people with phd's dont know what the **** there talking about ? ****ing canadian
    Yeah, doctors know how to keep someone alive for the longest time possible. You think lifting heavy weights over and over factors into that equation?

    Remember, titles mean very little. I know someone with a PHD who I wouldn't trust with a potato. What if they obtained that PHD 30 years ago. Do you think what they learned then applies now?

    I like the swearing and the Canadian comment by the way. Lets me know that you can't handle debate, and that I am more mature than a correctional officer.
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    Originally Posted by sst0cki
    Long term use of caffein can increase cortisol levels. Cortisol levels, if high enough, cause the breakdown of healthy muscle tissue ( oppoisite of what It usually does by breaking down broken muscle tissue) and increasing fat in the abdomin region. Now, these middle aged man, ask them if they drink coffee everysingle day ? most say yes, coffe = caffeine, lots of caffeine over a long period of time = increase cortisol levels.

    "Coffee drinking and caffeine intake stimulate the cascade of hormones and increase levels of cortisol"
    Yeah, yeah - ask these same pot-bellied dudes if they drink beer, and the reply would likely be the same. I think trying to blame that on coffee/caffeine is a bit of a stretch, sir.
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    Question Who else has been on EC for more than a month or two?

    Originally Posted by hithardUK View Post
    I have experimented (within recommended doses) with Thermogenics over the last year, both ephedra and non-ephedra. I would say that the experience has been positive: giving me more confidence, improving my concentration, helping me focus with training and of course helping me get and stay lean.

    Because I have had almost no negative side-effects..
    The big question is.. how safe are these products in the long-term??

    When using them as recommended within the dose range, cycling when necessary, what effect do they have on one's health?? Can they deteriorate internal organs.. the heart? the stomach? the liver? the kidneys?

    Ok so below I have the THEORY supporting the long-term use of ECA, of course I understand everyone is different, for some ECA is a terrible product and for me it has so far proven a solution. But I'd really like to hear your personal opinions and experiences...

    Enjoy the articles if you haven't already found them!!

    An article stating the long-term use of an ECA stack is the best "weight loss" solution for people with a noradrenaline and adrenaline deficiency:

    http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm

    Another article supporting the long-term use of ECA:

    http://www.ironmag.com/archive/ironm...ca_cycling.htm

    A great FAQ on Thermogenesis:

    http://www.brunnerbiz.com/thermogenesis2.html
    See title of post^^
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by sst0cki View Post
    I was always under the impression caffeine increases cortisol levels. My teacher who has My doctor says it does. And my teachers who have phd's in sports excerses, nutrition, ect..

    consider yourself lucky
    cortisol is released from long term stress. the idea is caffiene in high doses can cause anxiety/stress for some people and in turn increase cortisol levels.

    this is why I add in a b complex/ashwagandha while cycling EC or stims.
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    Question

    Originally Posted by toneranger View Post
    cortisol is released from long term stress. the idea is caffiene in high doses can cause anxiety/stress for some people and in turn increase cortisol levels.

    this is why I add in a b complex/ashwagandha while cycling EC or stims.
    Is this stress-related cortisol production stopped with the downregulation of the beta-1 and beta-2 receptors which essentially stop the "rush" from the stims?


    I'm curious if anyone has been on longer than a few months and noticed any side effects?
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