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  1. #1
    Member The Tall Man's Avatar
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    Unhappy Build Muscle then Cut Fat- somehow contradiction/how to do it?

    I'm confused about how to build muscle and cut fat.

    It seems that, to build muscle, you should avoid too much cardio, which implies to me that you'll gain more fat?

    To burn fat, it seems to me that you need to do heavy cardio, but I understand that this can result in losing muscle you gained?

    What gives?

    I'm 215, wanting to be about 230 (15 more pounds of muscle). Got a reply last week that I should build the muscle first, then come back and do some extreme cardio to get cut. It seems like in the process, I could lose the muscle I'd gain.

    How should I look at this?

    TTM
    TTM
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  2. #2
    Heavy Lifter Melkor's Avatar
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    Contrary to the masses, I believe it IS possible to gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time. I went from 6'3" at about 205 and 22% body fat to 192 and 8.4% body fat. That is a rather large drop in body fat, and a large gain of LBM and I did it with a strict diet, short intense cardio sessions, and supplementing with protein and Glutamine.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm

    These will help you. The point where it is not very possible to lose fat and gain muscle are at the low low ranges of the body fat range. You are not able to intake enough calories to gain muscle, or you have to take in enough that your body starts storing fat. For most people this is not the situation that they are in, and it is quite possible to do both at the same time. Try it.
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    -Nietzsche
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  3. #3
    Member Illmatic's Avatar
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    Your confusion lies in inexperience.

    Let me break it down for you:

    To gain muscle, you *will* gain fat.

    To lose fat, you *will* lose muscle.

    People who tell you they lose fat and gain muscle at the same time are either idiots, super-genetically gifted, or on steroids.

    Your goal, every bodybuilders goal is to MINIMIZE fat while maximizing muscle. This is done by perfecting your nutritional and training practices during the different "cycles" as they are called. You must do *one* thing at a time (either gain muscle or lose fat). Your first "cutting" phase will probably result in more muscle loss than your next one, and so on, as you begin to learn more about how your body responds to different training and nutritional practices. But you *must* focus on one goal at a time, and with practice, patience and experience, you will learn about your body, and likely succeed.
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  4. #4
    Member The Tall Man's Avatar
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    Got it- one more; when I start to lose fat, will I lose it first, after, or at the same rate as I lose the muscle?
    TTM
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  5. #5
    Member oneshot012's Avatar
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    This was taken from the teen board a while ago and i found it interesting maybe it might help:

    Losing Fat and Gaining Muscle at the same Time

    One dilemma facing athletes is whether to eat anything before cardio, and if so, what. A recent study sheds some light on this and suggests the best option. (1).

    The rationale for cardio on an empty stomach is obviously to increase fat burning. When carbs are taken in before exercise the carbs are preferentially used for fuel, sparing fat. On the other hand exercising on an empty stomach elevates cortisol levels which break down not only fats but muscle for fuel.

    The other option is ingesting protein before exercise. This may spare muscle, but does it inhibit fat burning? Surprisingly, according to the study, it depends on the type of protein.

    Rats were exercised under 4 different conditions. (1) Fasting. (2) Glucose meal before exercise. (3) whole milk protein before exercise (4) lactalbumin enriched whey before exercise.

    At the end of the study, the glucose and milk protein fed rats gained fat mass, showing that these diets blunted the fat burning from exercise. The fasted rats lost both muscle and fat, whereas the whey fed rats lost just as much fat as the fasted rats, but gained muscle.

    The moral is to burn fat and actually build muscle while doing cardio, ingest whey protein beforehand.

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Sep;283(3):E565-72

    A preexercise alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein meal preserves lipid oxidation and decreases adiposity in rats.

    Bouthegourd JC, Roseau SM, Makarios-Lahham L, Leruyet PM, Tome DG, Even PC.

    Unite Mixte de recherche de Physiologie de la Nutrition et du comportement alimentaire, Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, F75231 Paris, France.

    The composition of the preexercise food intake is known to affect substrate utilization during exercise and thus can affect long-term changes in body weight and composition. These parameters were measured in male rats exercised 2 h daily over 5 wk, either in the fasting state or 1 h after they ingested a meal enriched with glucose (Glc), whole milk protein (WMP), or alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein (CPalphaL). Compared with fasting, the Glc meal increased glucose oxidation and decreased lipid oxidation during and after exercise. In contrast, the WMP and CPalphaL meals preserved lipid oxidation and increased protein oxidation, the CPalphaL meal increasing protein oxidation more than the WMP meal. At the end of the study, body weight was larger in the WMP-, Glc-, and CPalphaL-fed rats than in the fasted ones. This resulted from an increased fat mass in the WMP and Glc rats and to an increased lean body mass, particularly muscles, in the CPalphaL rats. We conclude that the potential of the CPalphaL meal to preserve lipid oxidation and to rapidly deliver amino acids for use during exercise improved the efficiency of exercise training to decrease adiposity.
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  6. #6
    Registered User Mittens's Avatar
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    I read a good article on bodybuilding.com, forgot the author... he believed in the idea of 6 months of the year are for bulking, the other 6 for cutting.

    Basically think of a continuous cycle of putting on weight and muscle, then losing weight and cutting up... they are seperate, no cardio when your trying to put on weight. When you start cutting, you'll lose some muscle, but a majority fat... just a cycle of bulking, then cutting, bulking, then cutting...

    so if you look at this cycle over time, your putting on muscle while maintaining a low BF %, it all balances out

    i'm sorta new, hope I explained that right
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  7. #7
    Member Illmatic's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The Tall Man
    Got it- one more; when I start to lose fat, will I lose it first, after, or at the same rate as I lose the muscle?
    It depends on a few things. Your diet, your genetics, your training. Personally, I notice the fat loss first, then down the road, when I begin to get really lean, I notice a slight decrease in my size. Some people think they are gaining muscle when losing fat, which is biologically impossible (negative calories versus positive calories), but in reality they are losing fat around their muscle, making it look 'bigger', so to speak.
    "If your life doesn't pass before you when you squat, you aren't doing it right." -Tom Platz
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  8. #8
    Member Illmatic's Avatar
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    That article may sound interesting and all, but it is fundementally flawed. You cannot have negative calories (fat loss), and positive calories (muscle gain) at the same time. It's just basic nutritional science.
    "If your life doesn't pass before you when you squat, you aren't doing it right." -Tom Platz
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  9. #9
    Registered User tinosan's Avatar
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    What about a strength training and cardio after workout?

    Originally Posted by oneshot012 View Post
    This was taken from the teen board a while ago and i found it interesting maybe it might help:

    Losing Fat and Gaining Muscle at the same Time

    One dilemma facing athletes is whether to eat anything before cardio, and if so, what. A recent study sheds some light on this and suggests the best option. (1).

    The rationale for cardio on an empty stomach is obviously to increase fat burning. When carbs are taken in before exercise the carbs are preferentially used for fuel, sparing fat. On the other hand exercising on an empty stomach elevates cortisol levels which break down not only fats but muscle for fuel.

    The other option is ingesting protein before exercise. This may spare muscle, but does it inhibit fat burning? Surprisingly, according to the study, it depends on the type of protein.

    Rats were exercised under 4 different conditions. (1) Fasting. (2) Glucose meal before exercise. (3) whole milk protein before exercise (4) lactalbumin enriched whey before exercise.

    At the end of the study, the glucose and milk protein fed rats gained fat mass, showing that these diets blunted the fat burning from exercise. The fasted rats lost both muscle and fat, whereas the whey fed rats lost just as much fat as the fasted rats, but gained muscle.

    The moral is to burn fat and actually build muscle while doing cardio, ingest whey protein beforehand.

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Sep;283(3):E565-72

    A preexercise alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein meal preserves lipid oxidation and decreases adiposity in rats.

    Bouthegourd JC, Roseau SM, Makarios-Lahham L, Leruyet PM, Tome DG, Even PC.

    Unite Mixte de recherche de Physiologie de la Nutrition et du comportement alimentaire, Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, F75231 Paris, France.

    The composition of the preexercise food intake is known to affect substrate utilization during exercise and thus can affect long-term changes in body weight and composition. These parameters were measured in male rats exercised 2 h daily over 5 wk, either in the fasting state or 1 h after they ingested a meal enriched with glucose (Glc), whole milk protein (WMP), or alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein (CPalphaL). Compared with fasting, the Glc meal increased glucose oxidation and decreased lipid oxidation during and after exercise. In contrast, the WMP and CPalphaL meals preserved lipid oxidation and increased protein oxidation, the CPalphaL meal increasing protein oxidation more than the WMP meal. At the end of the study, body weight was larger in the WMP-, Glc-, and CPalphaL-fed rats than in the fasted ones. This resulted from an increased fat mass in the WMP and Glc rats and to an increased lean body mass, particularly muscles, in the CPalphaL rats. We conclude that the potential of the CPalphaL meal to preserve lipid oxidation and to rapidly deliver amino acids for use during exercise improved the efficiency of exercise training to decrease adiposity.
    So when do you drink the protein on a workout where you strength train first and do cardio after? is it before the strength training or after before the cardio?
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  10. #10
    Registered User huss30's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Illmatic View Post
    That article may sound interesting and all, but it is fundementally flawed. You cannot have negative calories (fat loss), and positive calories (muscle gain) at the same time. It's just basic nutritional science.
    Remember your body runs on fuel. Diets work because instead of pumping your body full of energy it can use immediately we force it to use its reserves(stored fat). Guess what your body converts your stored fat into? Yep folks that's right, Calories/energy. So it would make sence that if one were to be on a high protien diet, that is 2-3g/lean lb, and eating at a caloric deficit, yet had enough fat excess to sustain the body's energy needs, it would not be a stretch to say there could be some new muscle generation.
    J
    For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 1 Timothy 4: 8


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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by tinosan View Post
    So when do you drink the protein on a workout where you strength train first and do cardio after? is it before the strength training or after before the cardio?
    strong bump.
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