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  1. #121
    The VegetarianBodybuilder innermusic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElMariachi
    - the key comes down to the type of workouts that you do, and that you are consuming enough of the necessary nutrients to allow your body to heal.
    That's the bottom line.
    PS About your friend who's 5'9", 225 and ripped...
    You can't get that way without a chemical assist.
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  2. #122
    Mr Prawo Jazdy ElMariachi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by innermusic
    That's the bottom line.
    PS About your friend who's 5'9", 225 and ripped...
    You can't get that way without a chemical assist.



    I think he just simply has some good genes. Even as a little kid he had broad shoulders and looked built. As a high school football player, he was already 205 pounds or so. 20 years later, I figure he would have made some improvements

    I'd be more skeptical if I didn't know him personally, but heck, I'm not his daddy, whatever he does is his decision, I do know that he's been a total vegetarian since age 16. It used to drive me crazy that he could do the stuff he does, and then I look at what he eats, and its unbelievable for him to keep the body that he has.
    Russell Wilson, the first QB in NFL history to throw a game-winning interception.

    "So you got fired again eh?" "Yeah, they always freak out when you leave the scene of an accident."

    Spiders are like offensive linemen, the best ones do their job and you never notice them.

    An obvious example of New Math.
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  3. #123
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    And George Burns lived to be over 100 smoking cigars everyday...but really...you don't pick out single cases and say there...that proves it. And 5'9", 225# and ripped...no assistance. Well either that is a complete and utter load of crap or he does have some of the most freakish genetics ever and if the latter is the case, why, do you apply anything he does to you or the general population...he'd have better genetics than nearly anyone. I highly doubt it, but either way that single case is not applicable in my mind.

    Originally Posted by ElMariachi
    There's the opposite side of things. I know A LOT of vegetarian bodybuilders who have sculpted immense physique's relying mainly on protein sources such as soy. This is the flip side of that debate, obviously these guys are doing something right, no? One of the biggest guys I know, is a former bodybuilder and now a trainer, who lives here in Phoenix. He is about 5'9", 225, the guy has sworn that he has never touched steroids, skeptics will say "YEA RIGHT!", but thats not even the point.

    The guy goes through some insane workouts, and his diet is meticulous. He has never so much as touched a powdered protein drink but he has a better body than 95% of the people on these boards.


    I think it all comes down to a personal decision. The body is so capable of adapting that I believe almost anything is possible, and whether you are vegetarian or not, the key comes down to the type of workouts that you do, and that you are consuming enough of the necessary nutrients to allow your body to heal.

    Personally I think some people consume WAY TOO much protein, but thats just me. I think everyone has varied amounts that they need, and as long as what you are doing is working for YOU, you shouldn't be worrying about what anyone else is doing.
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  4. #124
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by innermusic
    Nice of you to take such an interest in what I eat. Or perhaps I don't qualify as a bodybuilder.
    You youself posted studies that showed a 30% decrease in testosterone, an increase in estradiol and estrone and also showed that it can have not a postive impact on thyroid, but quite often a negative impact. You may eat soy...that's cool...again let's talk isoflavones and dose. Of course genetics play in to this equation. And, no all soy isn't bad. Regularly consuming high amounts of isoflavones or consuming large amounts of soy isolate is counterproductive. There is an overwhelming amount of data in this thread to say to yourself...hmmm...I need to at least weigh this out and think if there is so much mixed data and, yes, people with much to gain on either side...but, ultimately, why? If you're vegetarian...so be it, you don't have much choice...well if you're vegan. You could be lacto-ovo or pesci, etc. allowing you to have animal sourced proteins...anyway...people get so mad. And there is so much data here...I just want people to say...wait, let me think about this.

    Lastly, If you have not read through the ENTIRE thread and are chiming in now...DON'T...please don't. Read through and then post thoughts.
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  5. #125
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElMariachi
    and its unbelievable for him to keep the body that he has.
    Yes.
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  6. #126
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Thanks...first of all. PM me with any questions you might have and I'll see if I can help you.

    As far as soy being good for females this to is enigmatic. How can you apply data to all females? Infants, Prepubecent/premenarche, premenopausal, perimenopausal and postmenopausal are all the same? We know it has effects of testosterone, estrogen, cholesterol, thyroid, etc. We know it exerts hormonal effects.

    Really, using soy milk sometimes as a woman, I don't see an issue, especially if you are not in preparation for a competition. I do think it is something to educate yourself on. Look up the isoflavone content...think about how much you are consuming (dose of isoflavones) and then observe if you differences in body composition, agitation, melancholy, body temp., acne, menarchical changes, water retention, etc. All these you may attribute to hormonal differences. Dending on your levels of estrogens it may positively effect you or negatively...that is genetic. Look at it, think about it...
    Originally Posted by FitGirlTrainer
    This topic caught my eye. As a female, I heard that Soy was oh-so good for you (and Shawn, I'd love to pick your brain. You seem to have a lot of knowledge on diet, which is something I'm struggling with - what to eat, what not to eat). On the female BB forum I mentioned that I drank Soymilk (Silk Vanilla, to be exact). But I pretty much only use it in my tea and the ocassional small bowl of Grape Nuts or Kashi Go Lean I may have. I suspect it boils down to about a cup to a cup and a half. Is Soy that is something I would be better off without? Or perhaps something that should wait until another point in my life when it would be more beneficial?

    Many thanks,
    FGT (Check out my journal -> FitGirlTrainer's Progress Journal)
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  7. #127
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Supa Freek 420
    Being that asian males are most likely to be ingesting isoflavones...

    Incidence of male breast cancer in california, 1988-2000: racial/ethnic variation in 1759 men.

    Breast Cancer Res Treat. 2005 Sep;93(2):145-50. Related Articles, Links
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    Incidence of male breast cancer in california, 1988-2000: racial/ethnic variation in 1759 men.

    O'Malley C, Shema S, White E, Glaser S.

    Northern California Cancer Center, Fremont, California 94538, USA. comalley@nccc.org

    Breast cancer among males is rare, accounting for less than 1% of all breast cancers in the United States. Although it is rare, it can cause significant morbidity and mortality. We analyzed data from 1759 California males whose diagnosis of breast cancer was made between 1988 and 2000 and reported to the population-based California Cancer Registry. Cases were primary, microscopically confirmed in situ and invasive breast cancer. Age-adjusted incidence rates per 100,000 men were highest in Blacks (1.65), intermediate in whites (1.31) and lowest in Hispanics and Asian/Pacific Islanders (0.68, 0.66, respectively). Age at diagnosis differed by race (p = 0.001) with blacks diagnosed at an earlier age than whites or Asians/Pacific Islanders. Stage at diagnosis also differed by race (p = 0.001) with blacks more likely to be diagnosed at distant stage. Further investigation showed that blacks and Hispanics were more likely to be diagnosed with tumors 5 cm in diameter or greater. The proportion of men having surgery following a diagnosis of breast cancer also varied by race/ethnicity (p = 0.001) with blacks least likely to have surgery following diagnosis. Understanding racial/ethnic variation in male breast cancer may provide clinical and etiologic implications for breast cancer in different populations.

    PMID: 16187234 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Disclaimer: The above post is my PERSONAL OPINION and DOES NOT REPRESENT the official position of any company. It DOES NOT constitute medical advice. CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility (no hormones produced in the facility/no cross contamination).
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  8. #128
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Soy isoflavones lowers testosterone:
    http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/Keung.htm

    Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii.


    Keung WM. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24 215:3 1137-44


    Abstract
    The isoflavones daidzein, genistein, biochanin A and formononetin selectively inhibit the gamma-isozymes of mammalian alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH). Since gamma-ADH is the only ADH isoform that catalyzes 3 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidation, it was conjectured that these isoflavones might also inhibit other enzymes involved in 3 beta-hydroxysteroid metabolism. P. testosteronii beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (beta-HSD) was used to evaluate this hypothesis. Indeed, all isoflavones that inhibit gamma-ADH were found to be potent inhibitors of beta-HSD. Both the 3 beta- and 17 beta-HSD activities of the enzyme are inhibited. Kinetic analyses with pregnenolone (3-beta-OH) and testosterone (17-beta-OH) as substrates reveal that daidzein and genistein inhibit beta-HSD competitively with respect to the sterol substrates. Their Ki values are very similar and range from 0.013 to 0.02 microM. These results suggest that isoflavones may exert some of their biological effects by modulating activities of enzymes that metabolize steroids critical to hormonal and/or neuronal functions.

    Estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase type 1 (E.C. 1.1.1.62) as a possible target for the action of phytoestrogens.


    M?kel? S, Poutanen M, Lehtim?ki J, Kostian ML, Santti R, Vihko R.
    Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1995 Jan 208:1 51-9.


    Abstract
    Several plant estrogens, especially coumestrol and genistein, were found to reduce the conversion of [3H]estrone to [3H] 17 beta-estradiol catalyzed by estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase Type 1 (E.C. 1.1.1.62) in vitro. Coumestrol, the most potent inhibitor in our experiments, is the best inhibitor of the enzyme known to date. All compounds with inhibitory effects were also estrogenic. However, structural demands for 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 inhibition and estrogenicity of tested compounds in breast cancer cells (judged by increased cell proliferation) were not identical. Zearalenone and diethylstilbestrol, both potent estrogens, did not inhibit 17 beta-HSOR Type 1. Thus, changes in the estrogen molecule may discriminate between active sites of 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 and estrogen binding sites of the ER. The effects of these compounds in vivo cannot be predicted on the basis of these results. Inhibition of 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 enzyme could lead to a decrease in the availability of the highly active endogenous estrogen. However, these compounds are estrogenic per se, and they may thus replace endogenous estrogens. Additional studies are needed to further understand the role of these plant estrogens in the etiology of hormone-dependent cancers. It is not easily conceivable how the chemopreventive action of Asian diets, possibly mediated by phytoestrogens in soya products, can be based on the inhibition of estrone reduction at the target cells by phytoestrogens or related compounds, unless they are ''incomplete estrogens'' (i.e., unable to induce all effects typical of endogenous estrogens).
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  9. #129
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04malehealth.htm

    Phytoestrogens & Male Health

    Phytoestrogens can affect male animals health and fertility, what about people?

    "For the males, decreased sperm count and enlarged prostates. The treatment altered virtually every aspect of the reproductive system. The place next to the testes, the duct system called the epididymis where the sperm are stored prior to being ejaculated -- it was abnormally small, which could account also for lowered sperm count in the ejaculate. But we know also the testis is making fewer sperm. We see changes in growth rate as well. One of the interesting things is that these very low doses of estrogen increase rates of growth. The animals were actually growing larger than they would have normally. It was really quite a dramatic effect. The females went into puberty early. And we saw changes in behavior, changes in reactivity to the presence of other animals in the environment. Essentially the animals looked to be somewhat hyper-reactive to stimuli. We have, in other words, effects on brain and behavior. We're also seeing changes in liver enzyme activity which determines the way we respond to external chemicals, how fast we clear drugs, how we metabolize drugs.

    In other words, in every aspect of physiology that we look for, we see effects. And they're permanent. And the important thing about what I'm talking about is we are only exposing babies to these chemicals for very, very short periods of time in development and the consequences are for the rest of the life of that individual. Once you change the development of an organ there is no way to undo that effect. It's a life sentence -- that's a lifetime consequence. Medical science can't undo the development of organs." Fredrick Vom Saal, Professor of Biological Sciences, University of Missouri in an interview on estrogenic chemicals in the environment conducted in February 1998 by Doug Hamilton, producer of FRONTLINE's "Fooling With Nature." Full interview can be found here

    From simple laboratory mice to the unusual case of the phytoestrogen sensitive captive cheetahs, there is ample evidence that dietary phytoestrogens cause infertility in a variety of animals. Why would this be? Like the other toxins in soybeans, the phytoestrogens are present in the soybean to ensure its survival. What better way to discourage predators than to make sure they aren't able to reproduce?

    But what about humans? Some, such as Richard Sharpe and Theo Colborn, have suggested that the trend toward lower male fertility is due to environmental estrogens, including the soy phytoestrogens. But is there any evidence that phytoestrogens may place males at risk of reduced fertility? Also see quotes from Food Safety - a 21st Century Issue, by Professor Shaw in the New Zealand Science Review. The human sperm count decrease over the past five decades might relate to the introduction of soya to the western diet and the increasing popularity of vegetarianism - a sting in the tail for apparently healthy eating. More information is available from an article published in The Dominion, Wellington September 3 2001.

    Nagata and colleagues have reported an inverse association between soy product intake and serum hormone concentrations in Japanese men. Research has demonstrated that chemical compounds can have a number of other effects on male health including decreasing prostate gland weight, lower testosterone levels, along with inducing significant testicular cell death and necrosis.

    Lois J Guillette Ph.D.

    He is Professor of Zoology at the University of Florida. Guillette has studied alligators in Florida for over ten years. Based on Theo Colborn's work, and the findings at the 1991 Wingspread conference in Wisconsin, he shifted his research to hormones -- asking whether environmental contaminants could be affecting alligator health and development.

    Interviewed by Doug Hamilton, producer of FRONTLINE's "Fooling With Nature." Interview conducted November 1997.

    "Caponised males? A half helping of man". W. David Kubiak reports that "...a steady diet of miso, tofu, soy sauce and so on might not be best for leadership trainees or aspiring Lotharios".

    There is also a wealth of evidence that shows that mammals exposed to estrogens during critical periods of sexual development can suffer a drastic reduction in fertility. For example

    Effects of exposure environmental estrogens on rats Male Reproductive Health
    Other estrogenic effects of isoflavones on dogs and fish
    And what about the ridiculous feeding of captive cheetahs soy protein? It seems cheetahs are particularly sensitive to isoflavones as well. So if you care at all about your pet feline, take a tip from Soy Online Service and don't expose them to cat food containing soy.
    Effects are not limited to vertebrates alone, read about the effects on the humble male Grasshopper.
    There is also strong evidence that soy phytoestrogens such as genistein can inhibit 17-b-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase, an enzyme which is required for the synthesis of testosterone and the development of the CNS-gonadal axis. There is also evidence that the soy isoflavones genistein and daidzein are genotoxic to human sperm. It is quite possible, therefore, that phytoestrogens, along with other endocrine disrupting compounds such as DDT, may contribute to the worldwide decrease in male fertility.

    See quotes from Food Safety - a 21st Century Issue, by Professor Shaw in the New Zealand Science Review. The human sperm count decrease over the past five decades might relate to the introduction of soya to the western diet and the increasing popularity of vegetarianism - a sting in the tail for apparently healthy eating. More information is available from an article published in The Dominion, Wellington September 3 2001.

    Congenital abnormalities of the male genital tract are also increasing, and once again soy phytoestrogens may be implicated, according to a study that found a higher incidence of birth defects in male offspring of vegetarian, soy-consuming mothers. There are also links between high soy diets during pregnancy and nursing and eventual developmental changes in children.

    In another research communication, Japanese scientists found that the presence of tyrosine protein kinase inhibitor genistein retarded the repair of gastric mucosal cells, suggesting that genistein may retard the healing of gastric ulcers.

    Also read our pages on the effects of phytoestrogens on thyroid, immune and cognitive function.

    Further information on Reproductive Health can be found at http://www.fertilityawareness.net/.
    Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
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  10. #130
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    continued

    Further Reading

    The effect of isoflavone extract ingestion, as Trinovin, on plasma steroids in normal men.
    Lewis JG, Morris JC, Clark BM, Elder PA., Steroids 2002 Jan;67(1):25-9

    We therefore question the value of Trinovin, at the recommended dosage, as offering protective effects against prostate disease by mechanisms involving either significant modulation of plasma steroid or SHBG levels. In contrast the increase in dihydrotestosterone plasma levels could be seen as possibly detrimental.

    Full Abstract Here



    Hidden soy in fast foods have been linked to cutting men's fertility. Read more Here

    Increased aggressive behavior and decreased affiliative behavior in adult male monkeys after long-term consumption of diets rich in soy protein and isoflavones.

    Simon NG, Kaplan JR, Hu S, Register TC, Adams MR., Horm Behav. 2004 Apr;45(4):278-84.

    In the monkeys fed the higher amount of isoflavones, frequencies of intense aggressive (67% higher) and submissive (203% higher) behavior were elevated relative to monkeys fed the control diet (P's < 0.05). In addition, the proportion of time spent by these monkeys in physical contact with other monkeys was reduced by 68%, time spent in proximity to other monkeys was reduced 50%, and time spent alone was increased 30% (P's < 0.02).

    Full Abstract Here

    New research confirms the risk of soy foods to mens' fertility once again.

    Soya may be making men infertile. Read an article by James Chapman published in the Daily Mirror Here.

    New Findings May Support Soy-Dementia in Men. Article by Ian Williams Goddard, August 9, 2003

    Manipulation of prenatal hormones and dietary phytoestrogens during adulthood alter the sexually dimorphic expression of visual spatial memory.

    Lund TD, Lephart ED. BMC Neurosci. 2001;2(1):21. Epub 2001 Dec 18.

    Full Abstract Here

    Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men.
    Gardner-Thorpe D, O'Hagen C, Young I, Lewis SJ. Eur J Clin Nutr 2003 Jan;57(1):100-6

    Total serum testosterone fell in volunteers taking the soya scones (19.3-18.2 nmol/l; 95% CI 1.01, 1.12; P=0.03)

    Full Abstract Here
    Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
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  11. #131
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/05soypolitics.htm

    Soy Politics
    The soy industry's influence over the media, research institutions and government agencies is strong.
    The goal of soy research is to boost industry profits and the US economy.
    We uncover soy industry politics.
    "Soya: The Quiet Conquest"

    Follow this link to a 1994 revelation on the way soy has infiltrated your food, your government and has captured well wishers in food safety regulatory agencies everywhere.



    Who Funds Soy Research and Why?

    $4 Million in Research Grants to Examine Soy Health Benefits. The soybean checkoff's Soy Health Research Program solicits research proposals to study soy consumption and its impact on the prevention of osteoporosis, breast cancer, prostate cancer and the health benefits of isoflavones, a component of soy protein. Scientists submit research proposal applications to USB and, if their applications are selected, USB awards a $10,000 grant to scientists to help defray the cost of preparing the proposal submission to the NIH. In 2000, the very first year of the program, it yielded a $1.2 million NIH grant. Since then, an additional $4 million has been secured.

    Multiple millions of dollars are spent on soy research each year. Most State Soybean Boards fund their own research programmes (e.g., Arkansas Soybean Board which spent US$1.1 Million in research in 1998-1999) but the grants offered are insignificant when compared with that of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA).

    The USDA Soybean Promotion and Research Program was established by the Soybean Promotion and Research Order and is authorised by the Soybean Promotion, Research, and Consumer Information Act [7 U.S.C. 6301-6311]. The Act was passed as part of the 1990 Farm Bill. It authorized the establishment of a national soybean promotion, research, and consumer information program. The program became effective on July 9, 1991, when the Order was published. Assessments began September 1, 1991.

    As required by the Act, USDA conducted a referendum among soybean producers on February 9, 1994, to determine whether the program should continue. Of the 85,606 valid ballots cast, 53.8 percent of soybean producers voting favoured the program. As required by the Act, USDA conducted a producer poll on July 26, 1995, to determine whether producers supported conducting a referendum to determine if refunds should continue. Only 48,782 producers participated in the poll--less than the 76,200 required to cause a refund referendum to be conducted. Refunds were discontinued on October 1, 1995.

    The program?s goal is to strengthen the position of soybeans in the marketplace and to maintain and expand domestic and foreign markets and uses for soybeans and soybean products. It is funded by a mandatory assessment of 0.5 of 1 percent of the net market price of soybeans. All producers marketing soybeans must pay the assessment. Assessments under this program total approximately $80 million annually and are used to fund promotional and informational campaigns and to conduct research with the objective of expanding and improving the use of soybeans and soybean products.

    You can read more about the USDA Soybean Promotion and Research Program at the United Soybean Board Site.
    Of course there's nothing wrong with research, but Soy Online Service think that the motivation for research should be the honest search for scientific truth (remember the good old days!!). The vast majority of current USDA and industry funded soy research is obscenely slanted toward the benefits of soy. And, what do you know? Soy cures cancer! Little surprise soy consumption is up, the soy magnates are laughing all the way to the bank and the US economy also gets a nice little boost.

    Well the facts are that if you believe the industry message about how great soy is then you are just another sucker. Soy Online Service views the soy industry as the worst type of scum on the face of the earth; happy to promote dubious health claims and take your money, while at the same time endangering more than a million soy formula fed babies each year.



    Don't upset the Soybean Cart

    Soy Online Service first encountered the politics of soy when we addressed the New Zealand Ministry of Health over concerns about the phytoestrogen content of soy formulas for infants. An internal memo from the Chief Toxicologist to the Minister of Health (and ex Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley) indicated a high level of concern for the health of infants fed soy formulas but stating that:

    'if the dose was high enough over a sufficient length of time, such toxicants could cause significant adverse health effects including growth depression, immunosuppression, abnormal responses to hormonal stimulation and cancer'.

    However, the memo also noted that the concerns we had raised had potential for 'mischief, especially in the media' and that 'soybeans are big business, especially in the United States and is a traded item on international commodity markets''. An earlier memo clearly stated the New Zealand government's desire to 'regain control' of the situation.

    This was in 1994 and rather than 'risk damaging an industry' the New Zealand Ministry of Health lied to the public about the risks associated with feeding soy formulas. Despite mounting evidence to the contrary, and continual questioning in Parliament, the Ministry of Health maintained the lies by continuing to state that there 'was no evidence of harm' and 'no substance to our concerns'. But in November 1998 came a dramatic about-face. One can only wonder at the power of multi-national interests when Ministers of the New Zealand government would condone the breaking of consumer protection laws that they in their oaths of office swore to uphold."



    Quote from "The Cholesterol Conspiracy" by Dr Russell L. Smith.

    Both the public and clinical physicians have simultaneously been swamped by an ever-growing tidal wave of exaggerations, distortions and even fabrications of the facts. The media blitz has been so successful that nearly everyone is now thoroughly brainwashed.

    In fact, it is nothing less than astonishing that this juggernaut has grown larger, richer and more powerful as the mountainous negative findings accumulated. How can this happen? If you control the money and the media, negative findings are little more than irritants because the public will never hear about them. It is a version of George Orwell's Newspeak.

    The reader should be aware that such a state-of-affairs is by no means unique. It has occurred in every branch of science for as long as anyone cares to remember. But it is particularly devastating in medicine where billions of dollars are spent worthlessly and millions of lives are lost prematurely because research funding agencies have disregarded masses of scientific findings and fraudulently used public monies to disseminate dogma and propaganda.

    Hitler did it. He was not the first but he did it quite successfully. It being the big lie. He and his cohorts told it often enough, and with official state backing, so that just about everyone involved believed it. And if you thought it could never happen again - outside of politicians, that is - you were mistaken. What is even worse, the big lie may well kill millions of people without ever interfering with their rights, their beliefs or their backgrounds.
    Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
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  12. #132
    IFFI Control Tower dinoiii's Avatar
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    So, I figure I would join in your plight everywhere and add in the same exchange for completion's sake...


    Allow me to quote...well,...me:



    Originally Posted by dinoiii
    This has been such a long-debated "hot" topic for as long as I can recall in the dietary supplementation world.

    "estrogen (E)" is very dubious in its presentation..."phytoestrogen (PE)" is as well, probably because various authors equate the terms as readily as they wouldn't understand differences between estrone (E1) vs. estradiol (E2) vs. estriol (E3). But as we know the "estrogenic" properties of those three vary so does the property as suggested between E vs. PE. [For the record, the estrogenic activity of the 3 is E2 > E1 > E3, yet the deleterious nature of such in the male bodybuilder is worse off when E1 predominates - but I'll spare you this drawn out discussion as well as metabolites - I am merely illustrating a point]

    The confusion with E vs. PE is rather funny - not so much because of the confusion it has caused the layman who tries to understand gibberish of various "expert" (damn I hate this word - often self-professed and nothing more) authors, but moreso because the quoted experts I think have actually convinced themselves that they understand the topic in the first place.

    We have a couple of things to look at that will probably find me seeping into your second question - but in order they are attribution of PE (namely the soy isoflavones), but also how to differentiate the effects of this versus other components.

    Soy isoflavones (genestein, diadzein, and the less-often spoke of glycitin) usually can constitute about 40-60% of the running concentration of soy isolate protein. They impart a rather weak AGONISTIC (or PRO-estrogenic) effect, but ALSO they are hypothesized to cause a weak ANTAGONISTIC (or ANTI-estogenic) effect. They kind of are said to impart action like SERMs...but this is a misnomer. The rationale that was employed into original discerning of this debate was many of the pro-estrogenic properties exerted by soy proteins (most notably, the alteration in cholesterol tallies to favorable composition)...well, later studies dispelled the myth that this was a isoflavone effect in the first place, when the soy protein still produced such effects when the isoflavones were essentially separated from the protein. It then was offered that the effects on cholesterol levels were more likely an accurate representation of the various sterol components [Beta sitosterol, Campesterol, Stigmasterol, Brassicasterol, Stigmastanol, and Ergostanol). The problem was then offered that these sterol actually have the potential to be PRO-estrogenic to a degree as well and it is often hypothesized that the nature of such can actually override any potential antagonistic effect that the isoflavones offered in the first place. But they more recently offered up the potential to give off anti-oxidant powers and the like - so it was deemed a potential good thing - even in resistance-trained athletes...but I will move on to your second question becuase I am blurring it a tad...



    (2) Should soy protein be avoided by male bodybuilders?

    I can answer this in a word, but I will offer my typical digression first for support and then conclude with my response.

    We may best be able to quantify the value by looking at pros and cons...


    PROs of SOY PROTEIN

    (a) Higher concentration of L-arginine (which could also be an additional rationale for the cholesterol modifications, but the sterols is better supported)...comparatively - animal proteins rule in the lysine department.

    ( b ) Lipid-lowering effect...this to me is a pro and a con...we are always so concerned with cholesterol values and there is some truth here, however - years ago, the total cholesterol acceptance upper limit was 300...we bumped it down to 200 and have seen an increase in cardiac death rates - what the hell? That's not what was supposed to happen, but my hypothesis is that when we do this, we also take away the potential substrate for androgenic precursor potential...so your left in worse shape and dead in the water on the more prominent endocrinlogic levels, so when it comes to body comp, this may not be the most ideal effect - health ... the jury is still out and part of the great Cholesterol Controversy.

    I have offered the soy isoflavones as a potential for the lipid-lowering effects. A few studies have shown that when the isoflavones are removed from the soy protein, the protein itself has little hypocholesterolemic activity. Soy isoflavones themselves do not have the same hypocholesterolemic activity as the combination of soy protein and soy isoflavones. Our answer to this discrepency is likely hidden within the sterol concentration as I have already suggested.

    ( c ) Antioxidant properties...now you cannot devalue this necessity in the life of a prototypical bb. However, one must also consider timing of ingestion because there is an appropriate timing of antioxidants that MUST also be taken into consideration, but often is NOT.

    (d) Anticarcinogenic: I'm not excited about the prolific pontification here, but alas I digress...there's a lot of money being granted from the soy industry to support these claims and the FDA isn't about to cheat on their bed buddies here.



    CONS to SOY protein use

    (a) Impedence to mineral absorption: Soy contains phytic acid, which may bind with certain minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, manganese, zinc, copper and iron, reducing their availability. This can truly be an issue in the life of a bodybuilder and oftentimes this will trump each and every one of the "pros" I listed above, especially if you are NOT ingesting literally double of each of the minerals I have listed here.

    ( b ) We can argue over the partial agonist/antagonist activity and the different areas suggested to see effects but I, myself am not that interested in hypotheses from petri analysis on this one - and the independent human studies are not compelling enough to say we have an adequate evidence to suggest a "sure fire" answer.

    ( c ) This goes hand-in-hand with b above. It has been shown that when infants are exposed to the higher levels of phytoestrogens associated with diets including formulas that contain soy, they have significantly smaller testes in the postpubertal era, as well as reduced testosterone and lower sperm counts. WHat the hell? Blame your parents if they gave you a soy-based formula and your off kilter - you can tell em I said it was ok to blame em too dammit! (aside: casein has also been suggested to cause diabetes in later life as well - geesh - what to do, what to do???)

    (d) In animals fed diets containing equivalent amounts of human consuming moderate amounts of soy as part of their normal diet - serum test, serum androstenedione were DECREASED!

    (e) Another study - yet in humans found direct inverse correlation between the amount of soy consumed and serum test levels... more soy you eat, the lower your test will be!!!

    (f) Beyond this, additonal animal studies have found that diets containing large amounts of soy cause an increase in post-feeding plasma cortisol levels. What - why does this happen - well, likely because soy does NOT contain all of the amino acids necessary by the body to initiate de novo protein synthesis. As a result the body secretes cortisol to help it break down muscle and liberate the additional amino acids.




    Now, this is by no means a laundry list - but it is what I am willing to type before retiring for the night...to me, the answer seems obvious, I will personally not mind a little soy in my diet (minor tallies - approved at 25 grams - to me this is actually about double what I might liberally allow) - but I will NOT seek out a source of it. And during particular times (read: post-workout, pre-bed), I'll let my various counterparts have my share...I am NOT TOUCHING IT WITH A 10-FOOT POLE. I know there are other "mixed-result" studies .... I will let the other guys do the "experimenting" for me.



    For Christ's sake - small post-pubertal testicles ... everyone look down and then run to the phone and call your parents ... thank em or chew em out!


    Sincerely,
    D_
    Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
    Industry Author & Product Development Consultant

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  13. #133
    IFFI Control Tower dinoiii's Avatar
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    Dr.D's comments on Soy which work in concert with mine with some add-ins coming at it from a different angle:


    Originally Posted by Dr.D
    Neurobehavioral effects have been noted in male organisms of many species that ingest soy protein. This is usually attributable to the effects of phytoestrogens that are inherently present in the form of isoflavones. Increased stress-induced plasma vasopressin concentrations and exaggerated corticosterone responses are seen with soy consumption. Stress, increased aromatase activity, somatic anxiety, a pro-catabolic endocrine balance, modified learning and memory and an uncertain tendency toward general sexually dimorphism? Not right now, I think I'll pass! I'm not really down with the whole metro thing and rather enjoy just being a simple man. There are already too many estro's floating around in the environment to roll the dice with this stuff, unless I have too. I mean, if I'm hungry and all there is is soy I'm not gonna starve either! lol
    D_
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  14. #134
    IFFI Control Tower dinoiii's Avatar
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    A piece I write in my BodyBlog here on bb.com you may find entertaining, though it has been on hiatus with so many current projects that was entitled:


    Originally Posted by dinoiii from Body Blog
    Hormonal Chaos: Living in a Land of Giants


    Introduction

    I was made fun of today! That's right, my vertically-challenged self had absolutely no comeback when I was called out for being ... gasp ... S-H-O-R-T!!! So, I did what I thought would be the most appropriate move. I suggested that I represented the statistical average for the white male per my New York State driver's license, a woeful 5'9" tall. Thinking I would emerge victorious, I was essentially laughed out of the locker room on this day.


    Hitting myself in the head ... I should've simply blamed it on estrogen!



    Hormonal Disarray

    Although U.S. residents are taller than they were 100 years ago, we are no longer the tallest people in the world. On the average, people in Sweden are about a half inch taller, while the Dutch and Norwegians are a full inch taller. Various Asian cultures are the only subset that don't seem to measure up - Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, and so on. These are the only groups that statistically show up below us no matter which source I reference.

    Terrific I would share the low-end of the totem pole with the tofu/doufu-eating societies gorging themselves with this phytoestrogenic delicacy. No, I am not one to buy into the propaganda that isoflavones, specifically genistein and diadzein and the essential product-whoring suggestions of these items offering good health for women and, especially NOT men.



    Dinoiii now you've lost it - ragging on my isoflavones

    Think I am off my rocker? This piece was not meant to pick apart Asian cultures ... not even remotely, but merely offer up suggestion to an appealing point of view that differs from an all too well accepted and appreciated soy industry.

    In a woman's body, these compounds can dock at estrogen receptors and act like very, very weak estrogens. During perimenopause, when a woman's estrogen fluctuates, rising to very high levels and then dropping below normal, phytoestrogens can help her maintain balance, blocking out estrogen when levels rise excessively high, plus filling in for estrogen when levels are low. When women's production of natural estrogen drops at menopause, isoflavones may provide just enough estrogenic activity to prevent or reduce uncomfortable symptoms, like hot flashes.

    In a man's body, estrogen levels are already low and when using a phytoestrogen-containing product, it is reasonable to believe that they will dip further provided I am not intending to make profit from this piece. Let's look at the data from a recent journal article from last April:


    Orwoll E, Lambert LC, Marshall LM, Phipps K, Blank J, Barret-Connor E, Cauley J, Ensrud K, Cummings S. Testosterone and Estradiol among Older Men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. April 2006, 91 (4): 1336-1344.

    One of the indirect points to take from this piece was the levels of estradiol and their variation among the American eldely male populace. Of which, hormonal values can be summarized as follows:

    Total Testosterone: Hispanic > African Americans > Caucasian > Asian
    Free Testosterone: Hispanic = African Americans > Caucasians > Asian
    Total Estradiol: Asian > African Americans > Hispanic > Caucasians
    Free Estradiol: Asian > African Americans > Hispanic > Caucasians

    Asian Americans had the lowest levels of testosterone, but highest levels of serum estrogens. Coincidence or societal influence? You can be the judge.



    My relation

    I was an obese child as you may have read. That said, It is easy to assume I had a lot of circulating estrogens due to high levels of aromatase, an enzyme involved in transforming testosterone to estrogen that is produced both in the liver and in fat cells. Is it the fat that holds your height down as an overweight individual? No, but it is in effect ... likely the estrogen. This discrepancy of estrogen and testosterone is also what is responsible for keeping females shorter, on average, than the prototypical male.

    Are we becoming an overweight society? Absolutely.

    Are we significantly being bombarded by outward estrogenic influence? You bet you. This latter scenario has already happened in Asian cultures and it isn't coincidence.

    Interestingly enough, the average lifespan of the white male has increased from 75 to 79 years at the same time. Coincidence that estrogen does have a positive effect on heart disease and cardiovascular markers such as cholesterol? Unfortunately, the markers like cholesterol are also the source of your androgen precursors as well ... so the cycle becomes quite vicious.



    Conclusion

    Today, I was at a loss for words; but would know how to defend myself the next time I take a hit for my height. The blame is simple and estrogen is at fault. There sure is something to be said about health status and life expectancy, but there is also something to be said about the quality of the life I am extending.



    Until next time...

    D_
    Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
    Industry Author & Product Development Consultant

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  15. #135
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    Originally Posted by Androgenic View Post

    If you read my theory above it is not necessarily the amount only it is the amount of endogenous testosterone and estrogens you have and how the "weak estrogen"/phytoestrogen competes and interacts with the hormonal cascade. My theory fully explains why high-soy product consuming Asians (in general) have a hairless, less muscular physique with subdermal adiposity/water retnetion (soft physique typical of a woman vs. vascularity), while still being "thin"...less testosterone (competition) and the presence of a weak estrogen. Same goes for the women, the weaker estrogen competes with endogenous estrogen and you see less secondary sexual characteristics (including breast development and secondary hair growth).
    I am curious about this because though I do not have scientific proof, I grew up in Hawaii and people who were Japanese and of Okinawan descent tended to be very hairy, in fact jokes were often made about using the whole bottle of shampoo to wash their backs.
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  16. #136
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    I am curious about this because though I do not have scientific proof, I grew up in Hawaii and people who were Japanese and of Okinawan descent tended to be very hairy, in fact jokes were often made about using the whole bottle of shampoo to wash their backs.
    Were the Japanese of Okinawan descent in Hawaii large consumers of soy proteins? I am not sure which way you are leading that statement.
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    Im not sure if this was already stated but; soy = bad because we do not have protein receptors for soy protein in our blood. Some blood typed are better suited to eat lots of meat while other are better suited to eat lots of vegetables but none are suited for lots of soy. Your body will eventually change its hormone production to help adapt to all the incoming foreign protein.
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  18. #138
    PNBA Pro Bodybuilder Quelly's Avatar
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    what I'm getting from all this, is that if you eat a diet rich in protein from a variety of sources you'll be fine EVEN WITH SOY

    just had cottage cheese, a soy protein bar (10g pro), and oats....I think my balls will make it

    seriously though, people just need to realize that nothing is black and white....I would say the only people who have to worry would be male, vegetarian or vegan bodybuilders who most likely would be consuming a large amount of soy...vegan more likely, because veggies can consume whey...so for the average lifter or supplement junkie don't worry about getting soy in your diet..I'd say at most the average population of fitness buffs get 10-20% of their protein from soy....just my 2 cents
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  19. #139
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Quelly View Post
    what I'm getting from all this, is that if you eat a diet rich in protein from a variety of sources you'll be fine EVEN WITH SOY

    just had cottage cheese, a soy protein bar (10g pro), and oats....I think my balls will make it

    seriously though, people just need to realize that nothing is black and white....I would say the only people who have to worry would be male, vegetarian or vegan bodybuilders who most likely would be consuming a large amount of soy...vegan more likely, because veggies can consume whey...so for the average lifter or supplement junkie don't worry about getting soy in your diet..I'd say at most the average population of fitness buffs get 10-20% of their protein from soy....just my 2 cents
    Research would help validate any opinion.
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  20. #140
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    So, do i understand this thread correctly?

    excess SOY consumption will make me Japanese of Okinawan descent?
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  21. #141
    PNBA Pro Bodybuilder Quelly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Androgenic View Post
    Research would help validate any opinion.
    well I was basing that opinion on the myriad of studies that showed both positive and negative effects of soy
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  22. #142
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by INGENIUM View Post
    So, do i understand this thread correctly?

    excess SOY consumption will make me Japanese of Okinawan descent?
    Now that's good research!
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  23. #143
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Androgenic View Post
    And George Burns lived to be over 100 smoking cigars everyday...but really...you don't pick out single cases and say there...that proves it. And 5'9", 225# and ripped...no assistance. Well either that is a complete and utter load of crap or he does have some of the most freakish genetics ever and if the latter is the case, why, do you apply anything he does to you or the general population...he'd have better genetics than nearly anyone. I highly doubt it, but either way that single case is not applicable in my mind.
    Sometimes I read back through my old posts and think...man, that was good. I want to rep myself, but it won't let me. I really like my posts and sometimes present-self learns from past-self. I love myself.
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  24. #144
    game over DRP7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Androgenic View Post
    Sometimes I read back through my old posts and think...man, that was good. I want to rep myself, but it won't let me. I really like my posts and sometimes present-self learns from past-self. I love myself.

    hehe, I did it now for you, dude! (the repping, of course )
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  25. #145
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    Originally Posted by Quelly View Post
    well I was basing that opinion on the myriad of studies that showed both positive and negative effects of soy
    I thought I looked at BOTH positive AND negative (dinoiii does NOT discriminate) actually and negative trumped the **** out of positive.

    Did quelly skip over my post?

    This robot's gonna cry andro.

    D_
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  26. #146
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I thought I looked at BOTH positive AND negative (dinoiii does NOT discriminate) actually and negative trumped the **** out of positive.

    Did quelly skip over my post?

    This robot's gonna cry andro.

    D_
    Quelly's young, reading the muscle mags and going to his bachelor's now. I remember doing the same thing. At 23 I believed everything Bill Phillips, Dan Duchaine, Dr. Colgan, and oh...shudder...Derek Cornelius told me. I spent thousands being wrong and have a ruined liver (thanks DC).

    So yes. My point is, to those pro-soy protein. Even if, at best its just conflicting data (and I agree with Dana its overwhelmingly not)...why use it????? Is there no other choices? Like rolling the dice? Wouldn't you be more conservative and wait on something that definitively gives it the green light? I would...but I don't buy muscletech, syntrax, fizogen's straps, oh yeah bars, and drink redline's left and right either.
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  27. #147
    Big is out, Greek is in Outside backer's Avatar
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    phuck soy campaign in fll effect.


    ive never touched soy and still wont
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  28. #148
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    This is a great thread. Kudos to all who have posted information and well-reasoned opinions.

    For what it is worth, here is my anecdote about soy. I am a vegetarian, so I tend to take in quite a bit of soy products, though many of them are also combined with whey or gluten. I can only get so excited about tofu, if you know what I mean. I have had no estrogenic effects on my body, at least none that I notice. Actually, my move to vegetarianism has increased testosterone-related tendencies, such as aggression, competitiveness, and libido.

    However, I eschew soy "milk" because I have had a sensation of terrible bloating when I drink it. Before I read about the phytoestrogen controversy, I assumed that the swelling in my pectorals was just retained water hanging out in my fat stores during a bulking cycle. Now, though, I wonder. I don't feel like experimenting again, though ;-)

    My final opinion, after having read the studies on this thread as well as studies elsewhere, is that eating soy-based products will have no negative effect on the body. If the level of dietary soy is taken to an extreme, however, all bets are off. Further, there are many studies that indicate that soy reduces the risk of prostate cancer (a VERY horrible disease). Given my six years of vegetarianism without growing breasts or shrinking my testes, I would wager on the side of moderate amounts of dietary soy being safe and useful. I would not, however, give my baby boy soy milk (or lotion him with lavender oil or tea tree oil, for that matter).
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  29. #149
    andros=man+genein=produce Androgenic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EctoHooligan View Post
    This is a great thread. Kudos to all who have posted information and well-reasoned opinions.

    For what it is worth, here is my anecdote about soy. I am a vegetarian, so I tend to take in quite a bit of soy products, though many of them are also combined with whey or gluten. I can only get so excited about tofu, if you know what I mean. I have had no estrogenic effects on my body, at least none that I notice. Actually, my move to vegetarianism has increased testosterone-related tendencies, such as aggression, competitiveness, and libido.

    However, I eschew soy "milk" because I have had a sensation of terrible bloating when I drink it. Before I read about the phytoestrogen controversy, I assumed that the swelling in my pectorals was just retained water hanging out in my fat stores during a bulking cycle. Now, though, I wonder. I don't feel like experimenting again, though ;-)

    My final opinion, after having read the studies on this thread as well as studies elsewhere, is that eating soy-based products will have no negative effect on the body. If the level of dietary soy is taken to an extreme, however, all bets are off. Further, there are many studies that indicate that soy reduces the risk of prostate cancer (a VERY horrible disease). Given my six years of vegetarianism without growing breasts or shrinking my testes, I would wager on the side of moderate amounts of dietary soy being safe and useful. I would not, however, give my baby boy soy milk (or lotion him with lavender oil or tea tree oil, for that matter).
    That's a good post. And the lavender/tea tree oil is a whole other thread along with flax lignan, microwaving foods in plastics. Plastics in general...which is the entire beverage industry. This is my argument, we certainly do not need to increase enviromental estrogens.

    Oh and...you might like this full study...titled: Endocrine Disruptors: Phytoestrogens in Food. (endocrine system is your hormones...disruption means bad.)
    http://www.edp*sciences.org/articles....pdf?access=ok
    You need to remove a star here between DP and S because it blocks it out, think its a competitor...I hate when this happens. But please look at this article/study.

    I am still begging, crying out for those reading to understand dose-dependency. The amount of phytoestrogens/isoflavones delivered. Soy Protein isolate is very, very concentrated in these isoflavones. Much more so, than tofu. I am begging you guys that are pro-soy...begging you to put this is context and no more, "I know a guy that's ripped and he eats soy" GNC/MHP/MuscleMag mentality...please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. The thread will be far more informative if you, well, let it be.

    Lastly this is the NIH (as in National Institute of Health under the government umbrella) article (aforementioned) titled: Lavender and Tea Tree Oils May Cause Breast Growth in Boys
    http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jan2007/niehs-31.htm
    Last edited by Androgenic; 04-03-2007 at 09:48 AM.
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  30. #150
    PNBA Pro Bodybuilder Quelly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I thought I looked at BOTH positive AND negative (dinoiii does NOT discriminate) actually and negative trumped the **** out of positive.

    Did quelly skip over my post?

    This robot's gonna cry andro.

    D_
    well I'm basically just saying that none of the studies give anything conclusive on how a bodybuilding diet that say had 10% of its protein from soy would affect your average lifter, and it seems like it would be fine in moderation....maybe I missed a study or two....I mean there were like 8897 of them
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