Supplements for vascularity

[Rippd]

I realize the two are completely different...I am just pointing to the fact that they share one thing in common...both creatine and GMS (even taurine) lead to increased cell volume which has in turn been linked to increased protein synthesis/decreased protein degradation end result of which is GROWTH

http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/pub.../MD37-1-00.pdf

yet another study linking CELL VOLUMIZATION to MUCLE GROWTH...

don't get caught up in the creatine/taurine/GMS/glutamine...these are just a few of the supplements linked to cell volumization. My point is that cell volumization (which you have conceded is achieved through GMS supplementation) leads to increased protein synthesis and ultimately growth

Cell volumization is a nice benefit but it does not always equate to growth. All those "studies" that you keep showing (really articles) all say that cell volumization "MAY" lead to growth.

[deserusan]

I conceded GMS is hygroscopic which requires excess water in order for it to acheive it's effect and also to prevent dehydration. It's an effect and not an anabolic response to cellular hydration? You don't need this crap to get big is my point. I don't know one real bodybuilder who uses this stuff. Please provide one study or direct argument linking GMS to increase anabolism or protein synthesis. Just one!

[deserusan]

These could explain it's effect...once again no evidence of any anabolic properties or protein synthesis. Once again it has no function just an effect!

http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/sh...d.php?t=667911

This may or may not help with this discussion. However, I found it interesting to show that injestion of glycerol raises plasma glycerol levels almost immediately. Obviously, the raised levels are due to a release of existing glycerol levels in tissues (not sure what tissues) and immediately from what is being digested. Now, my question is could the "effect" of the supplement be based on enhanced gluconeogenesis?

Nutrition. 1995 Mar-Apr;11(2):149-53; Glycerol gluconeogenesis in fasting humans.

Baba H, Zhang XJ, Wolfe RR.

The contribution of glycerol to glucose production has been measured in healthy volunteers by the simultaneous primed constant infusion of 1-[13C]glycerol and 3-[3H]glucose and the determination of the rates of appearance (Ra) of glycerol, glucose, and glycerol-derived glucose. In the postabsorptive state, glycerol Ra was 3.11 +/- 0.44 mumol.kg-1.min-1, of which 36% was converted to glucose, accounting for 4.5% of total glucose production. After 62-86 h of starvation, glycerol Ra rose to 5.32 +/- 0.58 mumol.kg-1.min-1, and 68% of glycerol was converted to glucose. This accounted for 21.6% of total glucose production. Glycerol was closely correlated with its conversion and contribution to glucose. These findings confirm that the contribution of glycerol to glucose production is directly correlated to its release as a consequence of lipolysis and support the notion that the central physiological role of accelerated lipolysis in fasting is the provision of gluconeogenic precursor.

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 36, 262-265

Effects of oral glycerol on food intake in man
H Bjorvell and S Rossner

"The amount of food ingested was measured in 12 non-obese volunteers after preloads with glycerol, glycose, and water, administered in a double-blind design. A palatable soup was served in concealed containers and on different plates and the volume, consumed on each occasion, was registered. Administration of 7.5 g glycerol 20 min before the meal reduced the mean energy intake by about 10% compared to both an equicaloric amount of glucose solution or the same volume (30 ml) of water. At the start of the meal 20 min after the preload, the plasma glycerol concentration was about 10 times higher than base-line values.

[NATHAN518]

You don't need it to get big...but you don't need creatine or any other supplement either. all you need is proper diet and training...however, we are constantly looking for something to AID in muscle growth. No one is saying GMS or even cell volumization is required for muscle growth. I don't know that studies exist on GMS/glycerine as a stand alone increasing anabolism or protein synthesis. However, we know because of its hygroscopic properties, that it draws liquid into the cells. Furthermore, there are numerous studies that have linked increased cellular volume to anabolism+increased protein synthesis. On top of that, we have the anecdotal evidence, which suggests that supplementation with glycerine/GMS is effective.

[deserusan]

However, we know because of its hygroscopic properties, that it draws liquid into the cells.

It draws water to itself and if it is abosrbed into the cell water will continue to be drawn to it not necessarily to the proper cellular components. This is why is it so important you drink so much water or else you will get dehydrated.

Furthermore, there are numerous studies that have linked increased cellular volume to anabolism+increased protein synthesis. On top of that, we have the anecdotal evidence, which suggests that supplementation with glycerine/GMS is effective.

These are from people recieving free supplements and who are stacking it with creatine. Creatine is proven without a doubt. Stack anything with something proven and will seem more effective.

[deserusan]

No one is saying GMS or even cell volumization is required for muscle growth. I don't know that studies exist on GMS/glycerine as a stand alone increasing anabolism or protein synthesis.

I agree with you on this because absolutely none exist. GMS has been around along time let's not forget.

[NATHAN518]

yes, but following the anecdotal evidence, you will see that in most of the logs, users did not change their current supplement protocol. So, while most of them are taking it with creatine, they had already been taking creatine for some time. This was the case with me as well. Adding GMS to my stack which already included creatine...I experienced better pumps and increased vascularity. Gains have been steady, nothing outrageous...however, there was a notable difference when I added GMS...
Many people are screaming placebo, but i don't think this is the case. I hate it when a new supplement comes out and people log it, and it does exactly what it says it will do, and people blame it on the placebo effect, as if to say it is impossible to believe that it could actually be doing what it claims...

[Rippd]

Better pumps and vascularity does not equate to growth.

[NATHAN518]

Better pumps and vascularity does not equate to growth.

This I will agree with. I was simply pointing out that these were the initial noticeable effects. I cannot say whether or not it is increasing my protein synthesis. All I can do is point out what I have noticed to date. After continued use, if I (and others) experience better gains while using GG than without, then I will attribute it to GG. Whether it is via increased protein synthesis from increased cellular volume or possibly increased pumps leading to better workouts etc. There are a wealth of possible reasons; however, so far anecdotal evidence seems to support that GMS supplementation is effective. Increased protein synthesis via increased cellular volume is the strongest supported answer, IMO

[deserusan]

yes, but following the anecdotal evidence, you will see that in most of the logs, users did not change their current supplement protocol. So, while most of them are taking it with creatine, they had already been taking creatine for some time. This was the case with me as well. Adding GMS to my stack which already included creatine...I experienced better pumps and increased vascularity. Gains have been steady, nothing outrageous...however, there was a notable difference when I added GMS...
Many people are screaming placebo, but i don't think this is the case. I hate it when a new supplement comes out and people log it, and it does exactly what it says it will do, and people blame it on the placebo effect, as if to say it is impossible to believe that it could actually be doing what it claims...

A lot of the logs are stacking two supplements that they have not used before. With that said I am not arguing that GMS doesn't increase pumps, however it utilizes a completely different physiological mechanism than an NO2 supplement. However, the claims for GMS are the same as NO2 supplements which worries me. There is a lot of evidence supporting arginine supplementation and none for GMS. Yes, with GMS your pumps might increase but it is merely an effect. I know it isn't a placebo effect but keep in mind it is just an effect. Any other claim is not proven and is merely taking advantage of kids who can't tell the difference between a pump and putting on real solid muscle mass. I guess we will have to agree to disagree!

[NATHAN518]

. I guess we will have to agree to disagree!

agreed

[stevothedevo]

Is this the same product / ingredient??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerol

If so, what on earth has this to do with us bodybuilders?

[NATHAN518]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ght=glycergrow

[stevothedevo]

Why would a body builder want to take a product used for/in:

soap
cosmetics
hair care products
laxative suppositories
softening agents in cakes
lubricant

I just don't believe it - surely supplement companies don't think we are that gullible?

[John_Milton]

Yes, with GMS your pumps might increase but it is merely an effect. I know it isn't a placebo effect but keep in mind it is just an effect. Any other claim is not proven and is merely taking advantage of kids who can't tell the difference between a pump and putting on real solid muscle mass

^^^

[NATHAN518]

No, not exactly...
I have already conceded that I have not read any studies/articles that directly link GMS/glycerol to muscle growth. However, there are numerous studies that have shown that glycerol supplementation (hyperhydration) leads to increased plasma volume/cellular volume. This cell volumization effect MAY be desirable for bodybuilders looking to:

-increase protein synthesis -->increased recovery
-enhance intracellular nutrient delivery
-improve endurance (via increased hydration)