I agree that most docs are in the dark on supps. I could have said it more clearly this is what I was going for . . .Originally Posted by BigRagu
It seems that you were saying despite all of the info and training that doctors have regarding pharmaceuticals they still make poor decisions and are swayed by drug reps. If this is your logic how do you expect avg Joe with no medical background or pharm background to make the right decision when it comes to supps? How is he supposed to wade through all the marketing and all of the hype. I'm assuming avg Joe is not as familiar with physiology pharmacology etc as a doctor.
As for HTN and the 15 year old it's hard to say w/o knowing the background of the case.
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View Poll Results: Should the FDA have a role in the supplement industry?
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Yes, the FDA does have a role in the sup industry
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01-21-2006, 05:24 PM #31
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Disclaimer: While I have an M.D. the views I express are not to be taken as medical advice under any circumstances. Please check with your own doctor if you want medical advice as he/she has access to your info and can provide the most accurate advice.
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01-21-2006, 05:32 PM #32
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Originally Posted by BigRagu
As for the pharm industry you are right. However, they wouldn't be popular if the majority of patients used common sense and had a healthy lifestyle. The problem is, and I have discussed this with quite a few doctors, is that everyone wants a quick fix. The quick fix attitude also exists in the supplement industry as well. It is this basic human personality flaw which allows them to be taken advantage of by the pharm industry and supplement industries.
This "quick fix" attitude is all over both industries. I'm fat, here's some phentermine. I want to get huge, here's some superdrol. Both are dangerous but both are sold or perscribed without even a thought. Tell a fat person they need to work on their diet and the majority will fail. Tell a high schooler who wants to make the varysity football team and gain 30 pounds to eat, lift hard, and to be patient and he will look for alternatives.
Doctor's are part of the problem, but to lay blame on them and the pharm industry is pure ignorance. They present their case a lot better and as said before have the funding to do their research, effective marketing, etc. This results in better marketing and makes them virtually untouchable until a class action lawsuit comes along.
As for supplements they are very vulnerable because you have no regulation. Companies can't even verfiy what they are putting on shelves in some instances. This lack of regulation and organization is why there is so much bad press. Everyone on these boards gets pissed off at reporters who expose companies for what they are and what they sell: greed and dangerous supplements. Why does everyone so blindly support companies who make outlandish claims, but are too afraid to list side effects on their labels. At least the pharm idustry does this as required by law. It ironic that most supplements tell you to seek your doctor's advice as well!
The bottom line is that since there is a demand for supplements there will be a source and the same applies for the pharm industry. However, the pharm industry at least has the organization and intelligence to keep the government at bay. The supplement industry is walking a tightrope which is going to cut unless they clean up their act. The government is here to protect us from both.Last edited by deserusan; 01-21-2006 at 05:34 PM.
"I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Heretic....
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01-21-2006, 05:34 PM #33
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Originally Posted by Dr.Dave1
and yes i think pharm does influence them... i worked in a hospital b4 and thos edrug reps were in there 24/7 giving out pens and talking about there products... not to mention medical schools are funded by pharm companies... yea the common joe dosn't know alot about health and give in the the doc.... but there is usually a better alternative out there.... i have a medical condition and through my own research i discovered it... the docs denied anythign was wrong even with the blodo tests.... i seen a specialist and his azz didn't even know how to treat it correctly i TOLD him how to.... i eat idiot doctors alive.... i go through them like candy... and if i don't understand something i research it until i do
btw do pharm companies even cure things? last tiem i looked they got a pill out 4 almost everything yet none of it cures anything
now there are great doctors out there don't get me wrong..and i had prob one of the best docs alive.. but there is also HORRIBLE ones out there that do more worse then good..... u put your trust in a doc and pay dam good money to see them... i would hope they know what they were doing
btw i guess the average person doeos know alot of medications with the way they advertise them on tv like they know anything... hey doc i seen this on tv i want it ... the commerical says it will make me feel like a million bucksLast edited by BigRagu; 01-21-2006 at 05:38 PM.
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01-21-2006, 05:40 PM #34
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Originally Posted by deserusan
btw as long as pharm companies have teh cash teh goverment could careless
but as i said YES supps need SOME regulation.... even if u needed to be 21+ to get superdrol u don't think 15 year olds wouldn't get there hands on it? come on man i see kids in grade school with cigs and beerLast edited by BigRagu; 01-21-2006 at 05:43 PM.
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01-21-2006, 05:55 PM #35Originally Posted by BigRagueaten up inside...
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01-21-2006, 05:57 PM #36
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01-22-2006, 06:07 AM #37
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Originally Posted by BigRagu
I have seen all the drug reps as well. However, I know from experience that the good docs do not let drug reps influence their prescription practices. Most of the docs I have worked with do not even talk to the pharm reps b/c they do not hav the time to do so b/c of the # of pts they are required to see. So, the reps just end up leaving free samples and literature. Good docs should look over the literature to see what the latest drugs can do but they also need to do their own research. I'm sorry to hear of you poor experiences w/ stubborn doctors. Fortunately if you do not like who you see you have the choice to move on and find a better one.
To answer you question about drugs curing people, aside from cancer and infections there are not many illness that drug companies cure. A lot of it is alleviating the symtpoms. However, there effects are proven via randomized clinical trilas . . . something you do not see too much of in the supp industry. Do the pharmas know how to treat the actual illness, that is an area of considerable debate and beyond the scope of the FDAs role in the supp industry.
I think everyone should have the initiaitve to do the research that you did for your condition. It is too bad the the docs you saw were unwilling to listen to you and look into what you suggested. In my opinion that is the worst thing a doctor can do. Successful treatment requires a concerned involved patient as you were. I'm glad that you were finally able to find one who would listen to you and that you did benefit from your research. As I said if everyone did that it would be great. However, a good portion do not. They do however see pharm adds on TV. Those adds are definitely questionable. However, while they may be vague they do not make unsubstantiated claims (sometime they do not make any claims and unless you know the drug it is hard to know what they are claiming) They have to do an enormous amount of research and prove that their claims are true and that their drugs are safe before the drug can go to market. This review is part of what the supp industry is missing. As for a source of money to fund this . . . that's a good question.
I do not want to see the supp industry turn into the pharm industry. I would however, like to see a more accountable supp industry whether that be from the inside or the out. Right now I do not think it is going to come from the inside so some force from the outside is necessary and inevitable if things do not change.Disclaimer: While I have an M.D. the views I express are not to be taken as medical advice under any circumstances. Please check with your own doctor if you want medical advice as he/she has access to your info and can provide the most accurate advice.
www.pubmed.gov . . . gotta love it
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01-22-2006, 07:44 AM #38
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The supp industry should be self regulated AND self policed (much like amatur radio) but as long as there are moronic companies like Protein Factory that get away with lying on their label and lying to consumers (and possibly endangering them) AND claiming false FDA and GMP approval and the supp industry as a whole is unable to "shut them down", then yes the FDA is needed in the supp industry.
Do you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 07:54 AM #39
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01-22-2006, 07:56 AM #40
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01-22-2006, 08:05 AM #41Originally Posted by exfatman
2) The Pharmaceutical Industry is a worldwide scam
Disclaimer: The above post is my own opinion and unless otherwise noted, it does not represent the official opinion of Controlled Labs. It does not constitute medical advice and is not intended to treat or cure any disease. Always consult your doctor, personal trainer, and nutritionist regarding your own nutrition, health, fitness goals, and supplementation. Individual results will depend on many variables, and supplements are not a replacement for nutrition and training. Controlled Labs products are not recommended for anyone under the age of 18.Free agent
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01-22-2006, 08:08 AM #42
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01-22-2006, 08:12 AM #43
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01-22-2006, 08:12 AM #44
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01-22-2006, 08:14 AM #45
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01-22-2006, 08:15 AM #46Originally Posted by exfatman
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01-22-2006, 08:17 AM #47
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01-22-2006, 08:17 AM #48
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Originally Posted by MCWTRAINERDo you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:21 AM #49
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Originally Posted by RobWDo you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:21 AM #50
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01-22-2006, 08:23 AM #51Originally Posted by exfatman
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01-22-2006, 08:24 AM #52
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Originally Posted by MCWTRAINERDo you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:26 AM #53
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01-22-2006, 08:27 AM #54
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Originally Posted by RobWDo you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:28 AM #55
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01-22-2006, 08:29 AM #56Originally Posted by exfatman
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01-22-2006, 08:33 AM #57Originally Posted by pu12en12g
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01-22-2006, 08:34 AM #58
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Originally Posted by RobWDo you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:37 AM #59
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Originally Posted by RobWLast edited by exfatman; 01-22-2006 at 08:47 AM.
Do you think that your better than me?
You better wake up cause you know it's a lie.
Friends don't let friends buy from Protein Factory...
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01-22-2006, 08:45 AM #60
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There seems to be a lot of people in favor of supp industry self regulation. How do you realistically forsee this happening? Making companies accountable so that what they say is actually in the product and that outlandish unsubstantiated claims are not made. I agree that self-regulation would be nice but I do not see it happening anytime soon. Maybe companies need more pressure from their consumer base . . .
Any thoughts on the necessity to have more research done on the effects both good and bad of long term (or short term) supp use? As a consumer I think it would be great if the supp industry used double blinded conrolled trials to test supps. However, since there is no push to do so I do not see it happening.
It's nice to check out the logs on this site to see an individuals experiences with a product but that is definitely not the same. IMO research would also benefit the supp industry. When a product stands up to all of this research people can truly see its benefits. One such example is Creatine. It has the subject of a large # of studies. Creatine has weathered the research and been shown to be beneficial and the claims of its harmful effects have largely been disproven. IMO it would be nice to see more of that.Disclaimer: While I have an M.D. the views I express are not to be taken as medical advice under any circumstances. Please check with your own doctor if you want medical advice as he/she has access to your info and can provide the most accurate advice.
www.pubmed.gov . . . gotta love it
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