Should the FDA have a role in the supplement industry?

[Dr.Dave1]

if your going after the blood pressure med prescription thing..... that's right my 15 year old cuz ... very active and in great shape.... he was out 4 about a month witha slight injury and ate alot of fast food ..... doctor tried to push blood pressure med on him saying it was genetic..... aunt refused... he started baseball the week after and cut out the junk and WOW.... when another doc checked it he said it was great!

I agree that most docs are in the dark on supps. I could have said it more clearly this is what I was going for . . .
It seems that you were saying despite all of the info and training that doctors have regarding pharmaceuticals they still make poor decisions and are swayed by drug reps. If this is your logic how do you expect avg Joe with no medical background or pharm background to make the right decision when it comes to supps? How is he supposed to wade through all the marketing and all of the hype. I'm assuming avg Joe is not as familiar with physiology pharmacology etc as a doctor.
As for HTN and the 15 year old it's hard to say w/o knowing the background of the case.

[deserusan]

lol doctors know CRAP about supplements...they get what 1 class on supplements... if that.. i had a doctor tell me b4 not to take creatine because it had alot of bad side effects......

i had a great doctor that knew alot but he also told me he didn't know much about supplements

Speaking in generalities like that is exactly the non-proactive attitude I am talking about. The last time a doctor told me creatine was bad I asked him to do a little research because he was wrong in a respectful manner. My next appointment with him he apologized. I didn't get pissed and go off spouting anti-establishment diatribe and instead informed him of the truth in a professional manner.

As for the pharm industry you are right. However, they wouldn't be popular if the majority of patients used common sense and had a healthy lifestyle. The problem is, and I have discussed this with quite a few doctors, is that everyone wants a quick fix. The quick fix attitude also exists in the supplement industry as well. It is this basic human personality flaw which allows them to be taken advantage of by the pharm industry and supplement industries.

This "quick fix" attitude is all over both industries. I'm fat, here's some phentermine. I want to get huge, here's some superdrol. Both are dangerous but both are sold or perscribed without even a thought. Tell a fat person they need to work on their diet and the majority will fail. Tell a high schooler who wants to make the varysity football team and gain 30 pounds to eat, lift hard, and to be patient and he will look for alternatives.

Doctor's are part of the problem, but to lay blame on them and the pharm industry is pure ignorance. They present their case a lot better and as said before have the funding to do their research, effective marketing, etc. This results in better marketing and makes them virtually untouchable until a class action lawsuit comes along.

As for supplements they are very vulnerable because you have no regulation. Companies can't even verfiy what they are putting on shelves in some instances. This lack of regulation and organization is why there is so much bad press. Everyone on these boards gets pissed off at reporters who expose companies for what they are and what they sell: greed and dangerous supplements. Why does everyone so blindly support companies who make outlandish claims, but are too afraid to list side effects on their labels. At least the pharm idustry does this as required by law. It ironic that most supplements tell you to seek your doctor's advice as well!

The bottom line is that since there is a demand for supplements there will be a source and the same applies for the pharm industry. However, the pharm industry at least has the organization and intelligence to keep the government at bay. The supplement industry is walking a tightrope which is going to cut unless they clean up their act. The government is here to protect us from both.

[BigRagu]

I agree that most docs are in the dark on supps. I could have said it more clearly this is what I was going for . . .
It seems that you were saying despite all of the info and training that doctors have regarding pharmaceuticals they still make poor decisions and are swayed by drug reps. If this is your logic how do you expect avg Joe with no medical background or pharm background to make the right decision when it comes to supps? How is he supposed to wade through all the marketing and all of the hype. I'm assuming avg Joe is not as familiar with physiology pharmacology etc as a doctor.
As for HTN and the 15 year old it's hard to say w/o knowing the background of the case.

so wait what your saying is let ONE high blodo test skew a doc into putting them on high blood pressue med?

and yes i think pharm does influence them... i worked in a hospital b4 and thos edrug reps were in there 24/7 giving out pens and talking about there products... not to mention medical schools are funded by pharm companies... yea the common joe dosn't know alot about health and give in the the doc.... but there is usually a better alternative out there.... i have a medical condition and through my own research i discovered it... the docs denied anythign was wrong even with the blodo tests.... i seen a specialist and his azz didn't even know how to treat it correctly i TOLD him how to.... i eat idiot doctors alive.... i go through them like candy... and if i don't understand something i research it until i do

btw do pharm companies even cure things? last tiem i looked they got a pill out 4 almost everything yet none of it cures anything

now there are great doctors out there don't get me wrong..and i had prob one of the best docs alive.. but there is also HORRIBLE ones out there that do more worse then good..... u put your trust in a doc and pay dam good money to see them... i would hope they know what they were doing

btw i guess the average person doeos know alot of medications with the way they advertise them on tv like they know anything... hey doc i seen this on tv i want it ... the commerical says it will make me feel like a million bucks

[BigRagu]

Speaking in generalities like that is exactly the non-proactive attitude I am talking about. The last time a doctor told me creatine was bad I asked him to do a little research because he was wrong in a respectful manner. My next appointment with him he apologized. I didn't get pissed and go off spouting anti-establishment diatribe and instead informed him of the truth in a professional manner.

As for the pharm industry you are right. However, they wouldn't be popular if the majority of patients used common sense and had a healthy lifestyle. The problem is, and I have discussed this with quite a few doctors, is that everyone wants a quick fix. The quick fix attitude also exists in the supplement industry as well. It is this basic human personality flaw which allows them to be taken advantage of by the pharm industry and supplement industries.

This "quick fix" attitude is all over both industries. I'm fat, here's some phentermine. I want to get huge, here's some superdrol. Both are dangerous but both are sold or perscribed without even a thought. Tell a fat person they need to work on their diet and the majority will fail. Tell a high schooler who wants to make the varysity football team and gain 30 pounds to eat, lift hard, and to be patient and he will look for alternatives.

Doctor's are part of the problem, but to lay blame on them and the pharm industry is pure ignorance. They present their case a lot better and as said before have the funding to do their research, effective marketing, etc. This results in better marketing and makes them virtually untouchable until a class action lawsuit comes along.

As for supplements they are very vulnerable because you have no regulation. Companies can't even verfiy what they are putting on shelves in some instances. This lack of regulation and organization is why there is so much bad press. Everyone on these boards gets pissed off at reporters who expose companies for what they are and what they sell: greed and dangerous supplements. Why does everyone so blindly support companies who make outlandish claims, but are too afraid to list side effects on their labels. At least the pharm idustry does this as required by law. It ironic that most supplements tell you to seek your doctor's advice as well!

The bottom line is that since there is a demand for supplements there will be a source and the same applies for the pharm industry. However, the pharm industry at least has the organization and intelligence to keep the government at bay. The supplement industry is walking a tightrope which is going to cut unless they clean up their act. The government is here to protect us from both.

i'm not putting 100% of the blame on pharm companies or docs..like i said i have had some great docs in the past...... i even proved one wrong and now he refuses to see me .. people can be just as harmful...shoving mcdonalds in their mouth and crying there fat..... but the way he is talking docs know everything

btw as long as pharm companies have teh cash teh goverment could careless

but as i said YES supps need SOME regulation.... even if u needed to be 21+ to get superdrol u don't think 15 year olds wouldn't get there hands on it? come on man i see kids in grade school with cigs and beer

[the kraken]

btw as long as pharm companies have teh cash teh goverment could careless

but as i said YES supps need SOME regulation.... even if u needed to be 21+ to get superdrol u don't think 15 year olds wouldn't get there hands on it? come on man i see kids in grade school with cigs and beer

I have been skimming through this thread and need to admit that while the sup industry needs some sort of regs, I can be typing this slamming a bottle of wild turkey and chain smoking a pack of cigs... but ephedra and test are illegal? I do not trust the FDA. Their thought process eludes me.

[the kraken]

abuse of anything might kill you, but the two biggest killers out there are as legal as you can get. I hope I'm not getting OT here, just been bottled up inside!

[Dr.Dave1]

so wait what your saying is let ONE high blodo test skew a doc into putting them on high blood pressue med?

and yes i think pharm does influence them... i worked in a hospital b4 and thos edrug reps were in there 24/7 giving out pens and talking about there products... not to mention medical schools are funded by pharm companies... yea the common joe dosn't know alot about health and give in the the doc.... but there is usually a better alternative out there.... i have a medical condition and through my own research i discovered it... the docs denied anythign was wrong even with the blodo tests.... i seen a specialist and his azz didn't even know how to treat it correctly i TOLD him how to.... i eat idiot doctors alive.... i go through them like candy... and if i don't understand something i research it until i do

btw do pharm companies even cure things? last tiem i looked they got a pill out 4 almost everything yet none of it cures anything

now there are great doctors out there don't get me wrong..and i had prob one of the best docs alive.. but there is also HORRIBLE ones out there that do more worse then good..... u put your trust in a doc and pay dam good money to see them... i would hope they know what they were doing

btw i guess the average person doeos know alot of medications with the way they advertise them on tv like they know anything... hey doc i seen this on tv i want it ... the commerical says it will make me feel like a million bucks

As I said I am unfamiliar with the details of the HTN case. I do not know if he met the criteria for HTN, if there had been othe high/borderline BPs previously or if the doc jumped to conclusions. THere is some debate that if HTN is expected to develop their may be some benefit to starting Tx early to decrease the probs the patient has since HTN can cz so many bad effects. The dos may have been wrong I don't know . . .
I have seen all the drug reps as well. However, I know from experience that the good docs do not let drug reps influence their prescription practices. Most of the docs I have worked with do not even talk to the pharm reps b/c they do not hav the time to do so b/c of the # of pts they are required to see. So, the reps just end up leaving free samples and literature. Good docs should look over the literature to see what the latest drugs can do but they also need to do their own research. I'm sorry to hear of you poor experiences w/ stubborn doctors. Fortunately if you do not like who you see you have the choice to move on and find a better one.
To answer you question about drugs curing people, aside from cancer and infections there are not many illness that drug companies cure. A lot of it is alleviating the symtpoms. However, there effects are proven via randomized clinical trilas . . . something you do not see too much of in the supp industry. Do the pharmas know how to treat the actual illness, that is an area of considerable debate and beyond the scope of the FDAs role in the supp industry.
I think everyone should have the initiaitve to do the research that you did for your condition. It is too bad the the docs you saw were unwilling to listen to you and look into what you suggested. In my opinion that is the worst thing a doctor can do. Successful treatment requires a concerned involved patient as you were. I'm glad that you were finally able to find one who would listen to you and that you did benefit from your research. As I said if everyone did that it would be great. However, a good portion do not. They do however see pharm adds on TV. Those adds are definitely questionable. However, while they may be vague they do not make unsubstantiated claims (sometime they do not make any claims and unless you know the drug it is hard to know what they are claiming) They have to do an enormous amount of research and prove that their claims are true and that their drugs are safe before the drug can go to market. This review is part of what the supp industry is missing. As for a source of money to fund this . . . that's a good question.
I do not want to see the supp industry turn into the pharm industry. I would however, like to see a more accountable supp industry whether that be from the inside or the out. Right now I do not think it is going to come from the inside so some force from the outside is necessary and inevitable if things do not change.

[exfatman]

The supp industry should be self regulated AND self policed (much like amatur radio) but as long as there are moronic companies like Protein Factory that get away with lying on their label and lying to consumers (and possibly endangering them) AND claiming false FDA and GMP approval and the supp industry as a whole is unable to "shut them down", then yes the FDA is needed in the supp industry.

[pu12en12g]

"I have always campaigned against the FDA getting involved in food supplements...I have very rarely seen the government do anything that was effective."

- Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
October, 2004

[exfatman]

What is your opinion?

[pu12en12g]

What is your opinion?

1) I agree with Arnold

2) The Pharmaceutical Industry is a worldwide scam

Disclaimer: The above post is my own opinion and unless otherwise noted, it does not represent the official opinion of Controlled Labs. It does not constitute medical advice and is not intended to treat or cure any disease. Always consult your doctor, personal trainer, and nutritionist regarding your own nutrition, health, fitness goals, and supplementation. Individual results will depend on many variables, and supplements are not a replacement for nutrition and training. Controlled Labs products are not recommended for anyone under the age of 18.

[RobW]

1) I agree with Arnold

2) The Pharmaceutical Industry is a worldwide scam

Disclaimer: The above post is my own opinion and unless otherwise noted, it does not represent the official opinion of Controlled Labs. It does not constitute medical advice and is not intended to treat or cure any disease. Always consult your doctor, personal trainer, and nutritionist regarding your own nutrition, health, fitness goals, and supplementation. Individual results will depend on many variables, and supplements are not a replacement for nutrition and training. Controlled Labs products are not recommended for anyone under the age of 18.

Agreed, the ONLY time the Government/politicians care about supplements/public safety is when they think the "issue" will help them get re-elected....

[exfatman]

What does the Pharmaceutical industry have to do with supps?

[MCWTRAINER]

Agreed, the ONLY time the Government/politicians care about supplements/public safety is when they think the "issue" will help them get re-elected....

Exactly!

[pu12en12g]

What does the Pharmaceutical industry have to do with supps?

Not much... see the discussion above

[RobW]

What does the Pharmaceutical industry have to do with supps?

They are the ones pushing for more supplement regulation....they don't like people taking "Natural alternatives" to there drugs....forget "freedom of Choice" it's all about Pharma company profits.....Go try to buy Creatine in France BANNED, try buying Vitamin C above 60mg in Germany...you can't....all due to the strength of the Pharma lobbists in Europe...

[pu12en12g]

i have a medical condition and through my own research i discovered it... the docs denied anythign was wrong even with the blodo tests.... i seen a specialist and his azz didn't even know how to treat it correctly i TOLD him how to.... i eat idiot doctors alive.... i go through them like candy... and if i don't understand something i research it until i do

What's your medical condition ? I definately understand your frustration, and your experience certainly isn't uncommon.

Just curious

[exfatman]

Exactly!

Ok, if the supp industry neither wants or needs the FDA to be involved how do you see the industry self regulating itself and preventing or stopping bull**** companies like Protein Factory from operating? Without a plan of action do you even think the government will ignore the industry for much longer?

[exfatman]

They are the ones pushing for more supplement regulation....they don't like people taking "Natural alternatives" to there drugs....forget "freedom of Choice" it's all about Pharma company profits.....Go try to buy Creatine in France BANNED, try buying Vitamin C above 60mg in Germany...you can't....all due to the strength of the Pharma lobbists in Europe...

That is true Rob but it is because of the dollar. If the FDA were to regulate supps that situation would be different. If supps regulated and policed themselves the pharmacutical industry would not have the saftey factor to argue about so their bull**** would necessarily change.

[MCWTRAINER]

Ok, if the supp industry neither wants or needs the FDA to be involved how do you see the industry self regulating itself and preventing or stopping bull**** companies like Protein Factory from operating? Without a plan of action do you even think the government will ignore the industry for much longer?

I think the FDA needs to be involved. It seems though that politicians only step up when they know it would help them get re-elected in the future. Otherwise they have bigger fish to fry.

[RobW]

Ok, if the supp industry neither wants or needs the FDA to be involved how do you see the industry self regulating itself and preventing or stopping bull**** companies like Protein Factory from operating? Without a plan of action do you even think the government will ignore the industry for much longer?

Look I think you know I don't care much for PF either, but do you really think it wise to steamroller an entire industry, just because a bad company puts less protein in there formula than they claim? Supplements come under "Food Law" and that is where they should stay....If a company is not up to lable claim then the local authorities should be notified, just as they would if a store was selling fake Nike t-shirts..... As soon as the FDA becomes involved with supplements, all we will be left with is Centrum and Slim Fast.....

[exfatman]

I think the FDA needs to be involved. It seems though that politicians only step up when they know it would help them get re-elected in the future. Otherwise they have bigger fish to fry.

self regulating and self policing would be a better alternative. Anybody know what JCAHO is and who formed it? What is a hospital without JCAHO accreditation?

[MCWTRAINER]

self regulating and self policing would be a better alternative.

Possibly.

[exfatman]

Look I think you know I don't care much for PF either, but do you really think it wise to steamroller an entire industry, just because a bad company puts less protein in there formula than they claim? Supplements come under "Food Law" and that is where they should stay....If a company is not up to lable claim then the local authorities should be notified, just as they would if a store was selling fake Nike t-shirts..... As soon as the FDA becomes involved with supplements, all we will be left with is Centrum and Slim Fast.....

As you said law enforcement nor government care about the supp industry. So what is wrong with self regulating and self policing the industry by an agency the industry selects (or creates)? Barring that, the FDA is the only logical answer unless you want some idiotic company in the future to but out the ultimate fat burner which contains cyanide.

[pu12en12g]

FYI: The FDA does have guidelines for supplements

[RobW]

self regulating and self policing would be a better alternative. Anybody know what JCAHO is and who formed it? What is a hospital without JCAHO accreditation?

There is self policing and regulation/certification i.e. the NNFA provides a GMP certification and other independant labs such as Shuster certify companies for their manufacturing quality...The problem is that consumers (some of them at least) migrate towards what is "Cheap" well guess what most os the time "you get what you pay for" if people want to buy 25lb bags of protein for cheap from a little company that also sells pet food....good luck to them....but come crying when you GET cheap sub standard products....

[RobW]

FYI: The FDA does have guidelines for supplements

Exactly.......they may not "certify" or "approve" supplements, but they do enforce the law as laid down in DSHEA.....and in theory if they had the time/manpower they would be ensuring that what goes on the label is in the product.....the power is there already....just too many labels and not enough time....I'm sure if enough people reported "KNOWN" problems with PF they would look into it

[exfatman]

There is self policing and regulation/certification i.e. the NNFA provides a GMP certification and other independant labs such as Shuster certify companies for their manufacturing quality...The problem is that consumers (some of them at least) migrate towards what is "Cheap" well guess what most os the time "you get what you pay for" if people want to buy 25lb bags of protein for cheap from a little company that also sells pet food....good luck to them....but come crying when you GET cheap sub standard products....

Not exactly self regulating or self policing Rob. Biggest problem is it is voluntary. Second is what happens if although you take part, you fail there certification? As I asked before is anybody familiar with JCAHO and how it was formed? Also what good is a hospital without accreditation from JCAHO?

[exfatman]

they do enforce the law as laid down in DSHEA

Not true. They (FDA) admitted that although an ingredient in a supp may not be technically legal as long as there are no complaints (rather not enough complaints) then they will do nothing about it. Also, read the DSHEA yourself and you will see that there are gaping holes in it which allow an above ingredient to become legal.

[Dr.Dave1]

There seems to be a lot of people in favor of supp industry self regulation. How do you realistically forsee this happening? Making companies accountable so that what they say is actually in the product and that outlandish unsubstantiated claims are not made. I agree that self-regulation would be nice but I do not see it happening anytime soon. Maybe companies need more pressure from their consumer base . . .
Any thoughts on the necessity to have more research done on the effects both good and bad of long term (or short term) supp use? As a consumer I think it would be great if the supp industry used double blinded conrolled trials to test supps. However, since there is no push to do so I do not see it happening.
It's nice to check out the logs on this site to see an individuals experiences with a product but that is definitely not the same. IMO research would also benefit the supp industry. When a product stands up to all of this research people can truly see its benefits. One such example is Creatine. It has the subject of a large # of studies. Creatine has weathered the research and been shown to be beneficial and the claims of its harmful effects have largely been disproven. IMO it would be nice to see more of that.