Protein and kidney stones

[musclecrunch]

Has anyone experienced or have knowledge of a direct correlation between increased protein intake and kidney stones? I've had kidney stones for 30 years (probably passed upwards of 100 or so and have been to many urologists over the years), and the last time I increased my protein intake for a sustained period of time, I ended up with a kidney full of them. Three lithotripsies (the medical blasting regimen that breaks them up) later, I was fine, but I'm hesitant to increase my protein intake again to that extent. Obviously, this could be a big determining factor in whether I decide to go the BB route (I joined Gold's last week and am starting up after a long hiatus) or just try to stay fit using a mixture of cardio and weights. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Stephen

[Dash Riprock]

There are many studies that suggest that upping your protein may cause kidney stones. Google the title of your thread and you will get many of the studies..

[ctgblue]

the correlation usually happens when one ups their protein and does not compensate by upping their water intake as well.
double the protein, double the water

[GREENFEATHER]

the correlation usually happens when one ups their protein and does not compensate by upping their water intake as well.
double the protein, double the water

Any urologist worth his salt will tell you exactly what ctg just did. I'm another one who is prone to stones. I take in 1-3 gallons of water depending upon the time of year. Since I upped the water, no more stones! I don't mean fluids, I mean plain old water.

[bxa121]

the correlation usually happens when one ups their protein and does not compensate by upping their water intake as well.
double the protein, double the water

There are many different sorts of stones, and there are stones that can come about due to a high protein diet. however, i think itll be remidied by drinking lots of water. if you have any concerns speak to a urologist

med student.

[Mark1T]

I have problems with Kidney Stones, and the only thing that has helped me, is increasing my water intake.

I am in agreement with most of these guys.

Never substitute a protein drink for water.

Several years ago, I started taking a 1-liter water bottle with some granulated Gatorade in it, and I consume the entire bottle throughout my 1 hour or less workout. I have not had a Kidney Stone in 5 years, as a result.

Do not depend on the drinking fountain at the gym for your water intake, or you will never get enough.

BTW, I do not believe the correlation of more protein = higher rate of Kidney Stones, as I also drink 1/2 gallon of Skim Milk per day.

Being dehydrated is your worst enemy, and you are just asking for a Kidney Stone(s). When the little tubes get dehydrated, the moisture in them crystalizes and forms Kidney Stones. If you are properly hydrated, you will lessen your chances for stones forming, because you are flushing your system properly. No guarantee you won't get them. Probably just less.

Don't blame it on protein.

[musclecrunch]

Thanks for the tips! I've had kidney stones long enough to know that water intake is especially important, but despite having heard it again and again, I still resist it. I don't resist it for any other reason than it's just so hard--for me at least--to consume that much water and still lead a normal life.

Consuming a lot of water for me means: (1) going to the bathroom constantly (sometimes as often as every twenty minutes, but usually every 30-40 min), and (2) feeling very full all the time. In the morning when I wake up, it's easy to drink a quart of water very quickly. But as the day wears on, water consumption is harder. As I "feel" hydrated, drinking more water becomes a struggle. It's easy to substitute sugarless teas etc., but I know they don't hydrate--if anything, they dehydrate. Perhaps water with some gatorade in it is the answer to keep me going.

If anyone knows how to increase water consumption, I'd love to hear it. I was reading the forums the other day and read about a way to increase your appetite by feeding your stomach every hour for a while until it gets used to the need for food. Somehow this doesn't seem to work with water though.

Any more tips?

Stephen

[Mark1T]

Yes, it is more difficult as the day wears on, but which is worse (1) The inconvenience of drinking water; or (2) Having the worst pain you can possibly imagine with a stone???

Yes, Gatorade helps replinish the salts and electrolytes that are lost either form exercising and just living.

Get on it!!

Thanks for the tips! I've had kidney stones long enough to know that water intake is especially important, but despite having heard it again and again, I still resist it. I don't resist it for any other reason than it's just so hard--for me at least--to consume that much water and still lead a normal life.

Consuming a lot of water for me means: (1) going to the bathroom constantly (sometimes as often as every twenty minutes, but usually every 30-40 min), and (2) feeling very full all the time. In the morning when I wake up, it's easy to drink a quart of water very quickly. But as the day wears on, water consumption is harder. As I "feel" hydrated, drinking more water becomes a struggle. It's easy to substitute sugarless teas etc., but I know they don't hydrate--if anything, they dehydrate. Perhaps water with some gatorade in it is the answer to keep me going.

If anyone knows how to increase water consumption, I'd love to hear it. I was reading the forums the other day and read about a way to increase your appetite by feeding your stomach every hour for a while until it gets used to the need for food. Somehow this doesn't seem to work with water though.

Any more tips?

Stephen

[musclecrunch]

All right, it's 1:49 and I've downed a half gallon of water. That wasn't too hard. I wonder how the second half-gallon will be?

I can't imagine ever drinking 3 gallons! I'd have to live with a catheter.

[ExCompetitor]

All right, it's 1:49 and I've downed a half gallon of water. That wasn't too hard. I wonder how the second half-gallon will be?

I can't imagine ever drinking 3 gallons! I'd have to live with a catheter.

2 U.S. Gallons should be plenty.

[jaguarr]

2 U.S. Gallons should be plenty.

Agree, and space out your drinking of those two gallons of water over the course of the day, rather than trying to pound it down a quarter or a half a gallon at a time, or you run the risk of dilluting your electrolytes to unhealthy levels.

jag

[musclecrunch]

You're not kidding? Two gallons of water/day? How do you manage to eat a lot of food with that much water in you? And what time do you stop drinking it at night? If I go past 8, I'm up all night pissing it out. I'm floored that you all really drink this much daily.

[GREENFEATHER]

This time of year I drink 1.5 gallons. It's not that hard to do and the pissing constantly abates after awhile. I pissed a few of those little pocupines, NEVER AGAIN!! I'd rather be shot again than pass another stone, there's no comparason in the pain level bro. The pain from a stone leads by a country mile!!!

[musclecrunch]

This time of year I drink 1.5 gallons. It's not that hard to do and the pissing constantly abates after awhile. I pissed a few of those little pocupines, NEVER AGAIN!! I'd rather be shot again than pass another stone, there's no comparason in the pain level bro. The pain from a stone leads by a country mile!!!

I agree with you, Greenfeather. I've passed way over 100 stones over the past 30 years, but only a handful (10?) really hurt bad. The rest came out easily. But when they hurt, there's nothing like it. It's truly unbearable. (I also had 3 lithotripsies to get the big ones out a few years ago: my doc said it was from the protein--and lack of water--that I'd made so many. I think I had 7 or 8 large ones then.)

I'm gonna trust you on the "getting used to it" part. I'm on my third quart of water today and I'm going to the bathroom every 25-30 minutes. (Luckily, I don't have to work for a few weeks, so we'll see how this goes.) I can't even imagine drinking triple what I've already drunk so far today.

I guess if I want to up my protein intake though, this is what I'll have to do.

Stephen

[musclecrunch]

Agree, and space out your drinking of those two gallons of water over the course of the day, rather than trying to pound it down a quarter or a half a gallon at a time, or you run the risk of dilluting your electrolytes to unhealthy levels.

jag

Made it through a gallon of water today. But it took the whole day and about 40 trips to the bathroom! I think I'm going to stick with a gallon for a few days and then see if I can up it to 1.5.

I hope you guys are right that one's body gets used to to drinking this much water! The rug is worn between my office and the bathroom.

Tomorrow may be easier since it's a gym day.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Stephen

[bxa121]

you can train your body to not be so sensitive to a full bladder if you want.

try to drink some water just before you sleep, your bladder will expand in your sleep but you wont feel the need to go until the morning, this will help stretch your bladder a bit. dont do it too much mind or youll wake up in the night.

try to hold it for a while longer, so you body gets used to the full bladder. that way, when you feel the need to go, youll soon be able to ignore it and cary on with your day.

these measures will help your body get used to a fuller bladder, so you can drink more water and not feel the need to be 10 yards away from a toilet at any given time.

hope this helps.

[musclecrunch]

you can train your body to not be so sensitive to a full bladder if you want.

try to drink some water just before you sleep, your bladder will expand in your sleep but you wont feel the need to go until the morning, this will help stretch your bladder a bit. dont do it too much mind or youll wake up in the night.

try to hold it for a while longer, so you body gets used to the full bladder. that way, when you feel the need to go, youll soon be able to ignore it and cary on with your day.

these measures will help your body get used to a fuller bladder, so you can drink more water and not feel the need to be 10 yards away from a toilet at any given time.

hope this helps.

I doubt this would work since I already get up twice during the night to go to the bathroom. I don't ever sleep through an entire night anymore. But thiks may be a function of age more than anything else.

I think I'll just try to drink a gallon+ each day for a while and see if that helps.

Thanks for your suggestion though!

[mbeck]

This has been a concern of mine for quite a while too. I had my first kidney stone four years ago (spent a couple of days trying to pass it, but it got stuck in my ureter and wouldn't drop into my bladder. I had to have it removed in a rather uncomfortable "procedure" which by all accounts is worse than the pain of the stone itself.) -they told me I had one in my other kidney as well. I still have yet to pass that one, and hope it's not growing any larger in my kidney.
The doctor put me on diruetics to treat me for hypercalciurea, but it didn't seem to help, so I'm off them. He suggested that too much protein could be the culprit, but the most effective treatment was to drink a lot of water. Since then, that's been my priority. What I use as a rule of thumb for water intake (I try for about a gallon a day) is to try and keep my urine as clear as possible. If it starts getting cloudy I up the water. -and yes, late night bathroom visits are typical.
I would like to think that sweating during a workout is also a good way for my body to expell the excess sodium which causes hypercalciuria.

-mike

[Mark1T]

Good info, mbeck. When I had to go to the Emergency Room about 4 years ago, they gave me all kinds of things for pain, including low-dose morphine. No relief, until they gave me some kind of anti-inflamation drug. Maybe it was cortisone? Whatever it was, it gave me instant relief.

This has been a concern of mine for quite a while too. I had my first kidney stone four years ago (spent a couple of days trying to pass it, but it got stuck in my ureter and wouldn't drop into my bladder. I had to have it removed in a rather uncomfortable "procedure" which by all accounts is worse than the pain of the stone itself.) -they told me I had one in my other kidney as well. I still have yet to pass that one, and hope it's not growing any larger in my kidney.
The doctor put me on diruetics to treat me for hypercalciurea, but it didn't seem to help, so I'm off them. He suggested that too much protein could be the culprit, but the most effective treatment was to drink a lot of water. Since then, that's been my priority. What I use as a rule of thumb for water intake (I try for about a gallon a day) is to try and keep my urine as clear as possible. If it starts getting cloudy I up the water. -and yes, late night bathroom visits are typical.
I would like to think that sweating during a workout is also a good way for my body to expell the excess sodium which causes hypercalciuria.

-mike

[PopeGregorius]

I get kidney stones. The first time I went to hospital & the doctor there could not diagnose it, they eventually phoned a surgeon & he was able to diagnose it without talking to me!

Kidney stones are usually composed of calcium oxalate. So moderate your calcium intake (milk, whey). I was on Zyloprim and a diuretic for a while. Now I make surr I have a bottle of water at my desk at work, at home I drink water flavoured with a little diet cordial or diet soft drink.

As you grow older, your thirst sensors diminish especially if you are male. I once tried not drinking all day & didn't feel thirsty till 4pm. So make drinking water a habit.

[musclecrunch]

This has been a concern of mine for quite a while too. I had my first kidney stone four years ago (spent a couple of days trying to pass it, but it got stuck in my ureter and wouldn't drop into my bladder. I had to have it removed in a rather uncomfortable "procedure" which by all accounts is worse than the pain of the stone itself.) -they told me I had one in my other kidney as well. I still have yet to pass that one, and hope it's not growing any larger in my kidney.
The doctor put me on diruetics to treat me for hypercalciurea, but it didn't seem to help, so I'm off them. He suggested that too much protein could be the culprit, but the most effective treatment was to drink a lot of water. Since then, that's been my priority. What I use as a rule of thumb for water intake (I try for about a gallon a day) is to try and keep my urine as clear as possible. If it starts getting cloudy I up the water. -and yes, late night bathroom visits are typical.
I would like to think that sweating during a workout is also a good way for my body to expell the excess sodium which causes hypercalciuria.

-mike

I do wish there was some data--or anecdotal info at least--on whether upping one's water consumption will help with upping one's protein consumption for those of us prone to kidney stones. I know BB's do it for the general health of their kidneys anyway--and I will do that--but I'd like to know if I'm increasing my chances of having more stones anyway.

In the meantime, I'm increasing my protein consumption gradually. But if I can't see into my kidney, I won't know what's happening until an X-Ray shows me.

[johnnyironboard]

If high protein consumption causes kidney stones why don't Pro BBers have that problem on a widespread basis? I never hear about it so assume they don't.

[musclecrunch]

If high protein consumption causes kidney stones why don't Pro BBers have that problem on a widespread basis? I never hear about it so assume they don't.

Some people are prone to kidney stones; others aren't. I've passed well over 100 in 30 years. I have a friend who has passed one. And we're both about the same age: 55.

If you're not prone to making stones, then you won't--no matter how much protein you consume.

It's the luck of the draw.

[bulletman]

If high protein consumption causes kidney stones why don't Pro BBers have that problem on a widespread basis? I never hear about it so assume they don't.

Good question, I would have guessed it's because BB'ers, especially pros, have trained themselves to consume a lot of water too. I know just reading this thread and doign a little research on kidney stones has me paying more attention to the amount of water I'm drinking!

[Kraken]

High protein does not necessarily lead to kidney stones. Kidney stones are commonly developed from small amounts of calcified material in the kidney.

The kidney stones that are made of proteins, are cuased because of a deficiency of the ability of the kidneys from being able to filter out the protein. High protein intake can exacerbate the problem, but just consuming high amounts of protein is just not enough to cause them. It is a rare kidney disorder if your stones are made from proteins.

[musclecrunch]

High protein does not necessarily lead to kidney stones. Kidney stones are commonly developed from small amounts of calcified material in the kidney.

The kidney stones that are made of proteins, are cuased because of a deficiency of the ability of the kidneys from being able to filter out the protein. High protein intake can exacerbate the problem, but just consuming high amounts of protein is just not enough to cause them. It is a rare kidney disorder if your stones are made from proteins.

I misunderstood I think. I didn't mean that high protein is the original cause of kidney stones. I never consumed a lot, even when I was young, but still I created a small garden-full of stones.

Mine, like most people, are made of calcium oxylate. So what is the relationship between high protein consumption and kidney stones? What do increased amounts of protein have to do with not being able to filter calcium out of the kidney?

[Kraken]

I misunderstood I think. I didn't mean that high protein is the original cause of kidney stones. I never consumed a lot, even when I was young, but still I created a small garden-full of stones.

Mine, like most people, are made of calcium oxylate. So what is the relationship between high protein consumption and kidney stones? What do increased amounts of protein have to do with not being able to filter calcium out of the kidney?

I suppose that an increased protein intake puts added stress on the kidneys. For the average, healthy person, increased protein would not be anything to worry about. But, I am assuming that the added stress will cause the kidneys to not be efficient in filtering the calcium. What's odd is, if this were the case, why would the kidneys still be able to continue filtering the protien. My medical knowledge is limited to emergency care, so I am not totally educated in some general practice cases.

[johnnyironboard]

Mine, like most people, are made of calcium oxylate.

I thought taking magnessium would help with that.

[musclecrunch]

I thought taking magnessium would help with that.

Magnesium may help some people, but I have a particularly incorrigible case. I take hydrochlorothiazide and allopurinol (usually prescribed for gout) every day--and have since the 70's.

[rgkstl]

IJSNEM, 10(1), March 2000, Copyright © 2000

Do Regular High Protein Diets Have Potential Health Risks on Kidney Function in Athletes?

Jacques R. Poortmans; Olivier Dellalieux
Full Article Table of Contents for Vol. 10, Iss. 1



Abstract
Excess protein and amino acid intake have been recognized as hazardous potential implications for kidney function, leading to progressive impairment of this organ. It has been suggested in the literature, without clear evidence, that high protein intake by athletes has no harmful consequences on renal function. This study investigated body-builders (BB) and other well-trained athletes (OA) with high and medium protein intake, respectively, in order to shed light on this issue. The athletes underwent a 7-day nutrition record analysis as well as blood sample and urine collection to determine the potential renal consequences of a high protein intake. The data revealed that despite higher plasma concentration of uric acid and calcium, Group BB had renal clearances of creatinine, urea, and albumin that were within the normal range. The nitrogen balance for both groups became positive when daily protein intake exceeded 1.26 g · kg–1 but there were no correlations between protein intake and creatinine clearance, albumin excretion rate, and calcium excretion rate. To conclude, it appears that protein intake under 2.8 g· kg–1 does not impair renal function in well-trained athletes as indicated by the measures of renal function used in this study.