Race (Serious)

[TNCEKM]

Race defined by wikipedia:

A race is a population of humans distinguished from other populations. The most widely used racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color and facial features). Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, vary by culture and time and are often controversial due to their impact on social identity and hence identity politics.

Since the 1940s, evolutionary scientists have rejected the view of race according to which a number of finite lists of essential characteristics could be used to determine a like number of races. By the 1960s, data and models from population genetics called into question taxonomic understandings of race, and many have turned from conceptualizing and analyzing human variation in terms of race to doing so in terms of populations and clines instead. However, many scientists believe that when properly understoood race can be a valid and useful concept. Since the 1990s, data and models from genomics and cladistics have resulted in a revolution in our understanding of human evolution, which has led some to propose a new "lineage" definition of race. These scientists have made related arguments that races are valid when understood as fuzzy sets, clusters, or extended families. Currently, opinions differ substantially within and among academic disciplines.

Many evolutionary and social scientists, drawing on such biological research, think common race definitions, or any race definitions pertaining to humans, lack taxonomic rigour and validity. They argue that race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, and that the races observed vary according to the culture examined. They further maintain that race is best understood as a social construct. Other scientists, however, have argued that this position is motivated more by political than scientific reasons, and some have argued that the existence and significance of "biological races" depends on the specific context.

[TNCEKM]

im pretty sure i remember you saying you were religious. i believe it was islam, but might of been christianity? if i am correct in remembering this, doesnt believeing that different races are genetically superior intellectually go against the teachings of your religions which state that every human is equal and a child of god?

I'm not religious, really. I do believe in a supernatural power, but nothing that is currently practiced by anyone. Its just a faith.

I base my decisions and beliefs off of what I see, observe, and research

[TNCEKM]

Even if it was true, you'd still say this cause you're prob white.

No, I just don't IGNORE it like everyone else does. And it IS true. Look at the damn links to FBI databases I put up.

[TNCEKM]

I dont see all the argueing in here.

It's mainly your up bringing. I doubt genetically our brains are different.

Whatever makes you seep at night.

[novax]

Maybe your parents were just smarter? Or maybe you and your sister were. That doesn't have anything to do with what race you were.

My parents were above average intellegence. My sister is rather dumb. I am being blunt. She is not my bilogical sister.

I was not making any references to race in my statement since my sister is asian.

I was simply stating that people are born with different gentic capability and personility to some degree. I was arguing that social upbringing doesnt account for everything.

[Mrs Grudge]

My parents were above average intellegence. My sister is rather dumb. I am being blunt. She is not my bilogical sister.

I was not making any references to race in my statement since my sister is asian.

I was simply stating that people are born with different gentic capability and personility to some degree. I was arguing that social upbringing doesnt account for everything.

Oh well isnt that obvious. Some people are naturally smarter then others. I suppose I lost track because of the huge amount of text in this thread, but I though we were refering to race?

[TNCEKM]

stfu

Yeah, typical ignorant progressive calling me a nazi because I don't conform to the politically correct bull****.

You know nothing about me. I'm definitely not a "racist". I am, however, a fervent realist and I'm not going to ignore statistics and facts unlike some people.

[novax]

Oh well isnt that obvious. Some people are naturally smarter then others. I suppose I lost track because of the huge amount of text in this thread, but I though we were refering to race?

MOst people are refering to race. I am unsure on the subject. I think motivation is perhaps more important then capibility even if race makes a matter or not. I dont know.

I met some blacks that are very intelligent and are conservatives in my engineering school and at work.

I truly believe that it is liberal policies that ultamately makes populations of dumb people of all races. I think as far as the iresponsible people, we should just leave them alone. I do not favor institutionalizing them like some radicals and I do not believe in unrestricted welfare. It is true that alot of people do not end up living up to their capability. That is why there are stories of poor becoming rich.

I am arguing with the people on this forum who say a person intelligence is 100 percent up bringing and social influences. I know this isnt the case. Its about individualism and discpine.

I also think personality traits can be gentical to a degree. For example rapist and murders have a common cromosome defect. (all murders and rapist of different races)

[Benchpess]

ITs not all genetics is 99.9% upbringing and culture, and 0.1% genetics. Genetics play a role so small that you should never look at it when making adecision. IF you look at history, white people where so violent. "crusades", "slaves". and if you look now they are not as violent as they were before. And why does the separation barrier have to be skin color or eye size. Why dont you say dumb comments like "people who have small toes are lesser than people with big toes"? If you look at india, more than 1/2 the population is poor, but if you look at canada they have alot of indians at their universites and doing well economically. A kid who is raised in the taliban is 99.9% more likely that he will hate americans than i kid raised in nigeria. What makes these "trends" that you base your assumptions on is you. I know a black kid who asked me why i play hockey and he thought it was for white people. (You see that part of him thinking that it is for white people is due too stupid statements like races are different.) Me and my dad took him to play hockey once and look, he likes it more than bball. All im saying is that there is a reason why so many black countries are poor (ie.colonization), there is a reason why some spanish countries have drug problems. They are not born to be poor and they are not born and think "im going to grow *******". There is a reason for all of this, if you learn why, by reading books and looking into history..etc, you'll see there is a reason for everything.
For example i asked one of my profs this question and he gave me an example why there is a high crime rates in black america.
and this is pratically what he told me:
Whites are the ones who brought the poverty to the blacks, not the blacks. If you remember there was a time when we didnt give them jobs and made them sit in the back of the bus, i hope u do remember. So now we have alot of black people who are put in a ghetto and given barely opportunities to get rich. This gives them no choice but to commit crimes for money to feed their families. They become agressive because they are like prisoners and are treated like trash. This is wat shapes the behiavors of the parents, which eventually gets passed on to the children. So the times change and now they are accepted in our society, but one thing still remains, THEY STILL LIVE IN THE GHETTO AND ARE POOR. And to help them, what do we "superior white people do", we make the cost of going to good colleges and universities like 20000-40000$. And wat is the result ??? We give many of them no hope of getting into these schools. These with many more things causes black people to hate white people (which i dont blame them for), and puts them in their situation of the ghettos and gangsta talk. He was more elaborative in explaining, but some of the smart people kno where im going at.

And to make it worse we have people like TNCEKM who blame them for not taking the opportunities. Seriously man open your mind. Im a white kid and my family isnt rich or have the money to send me to a good school so Im going to a community college because my parents couldn't afford a better school, and i kno that i probably wont get the best job but ill do with anything so that my kids can go to those schools that you think is really open to everyone. And ill tell you that i grew up a tough kid being in the ghetto and if a rich kid said some stuff like, you grew up in the same country "so why am i doing better", ill drop him in 2 secs. So i got my agressiveness growing up in the poorer areas of the city.

Just dont look at the ghettos or other countries and say think that they cant be helped because they have these feature or attribute in there genome. Look at the whole picture and dont let discrimination get into your judgement.

[maverick22]

stfu

nice. the cap fits...

[Benchpess]

This is to TNCEMK:
I kno for a fack that you did not grow up poor and you never even stayed in a ghetto for 1 night or even talked to poor people. Just talking this nonsense and making yourself feel good by calling yourself a realist in the comfort of your home. You probably look at other races doing better and benching more than you in the gym and justify it by saying, "its his race and im smarter cuz im white".
Get real man, and open up your mind.
And i can see your real political and intellectual with all your liberal bashing.

[maverick22]

ITs not all genetics is 99.9% upbringing and culture, and 0.1% genetics. Genetics play a role so small that you should never look at it when making adecision. IF you look at history, white people where so violent. "crusades", "slaves". and if you look now they are not as violent as they were before. And why does the separation barrier have to be skin color or eye size. Why dont you say dumb comments like "people who have small toes are lesser than people with big toes"? If you look at india, more than 1/2 the population is poor, but if you look at canada they have alot of indians at their universites and doing well economically. A kid who is raised in the taliban is 99.9% more likely that he will hate americans than i kid raised in nigeria. What makes these "trends" that you base your assumptions on is you. I know a black kid who asked me why i play hockey and he thought it was for white people. (You see that part of him thinking that it is for white people is due too stupid statements like races are different.) Me and my dad took him to play hockey once and look, he likes it more than bball. All im saying is that there is a reason why so many black countries are poor (ie.colonization), there is a reason why some spanish countries have drug problems. They are not born to be poor and they are not born and think "im going to grow *******". There is a reason for all of this, if you learn why, by reading books and looking into history..etc, you'll see there is a reason for everything.
For example i asked one of my profs this question and he gave me an example why there is a high crime rates in black america.
and this is pratically what he told me:
Whites are the ones who brought the poverty to the blacks, not the blacks. If you remember there was a time when we didnt give them jobs and made them sit in the back of the bus, i hope u do remember. So now we have alot of black people who are put in a ghetto and given barely opportunities to get rich. This gives them no choice but to commit crimes for money to feed their families. They become agressive because they are like prisoners and are treated like trash. This is wat shapes the behiavors of the parents, which eventually gets passed on to the children. So the times change and now they are accepted in our society, but one thing still remains, THEY STILL LIVE IN THE GHETTO AND ARE POOR. And to help them, what do we "superior white people do", we make the cost of going to good colleges and universities like 20000-40000$. And wat is the result ??? We give many of them no hope of getting into these schools. These with many more things causes black people to hate white people (which i dont blame them for), and puts them in their situation of the ghettos and gangsta talk. He was more elaborative in explaining, but some of the smart people kno where im going at.

And to make it worse we have people like TNCEKM who blame them for not taking the opportunities. Seriously man open your mind. Im a white kid and my family isnt rich or have the money to send me to a good school so Im going to a community college because my parents couldn't afford a better school, and i kno that i probably wont get the best job but ill do with anything so that my kids can go to those schools that you think is really open to everyone. And ill tell you that i grew up a tough kid being in the ghetto and if a rich kid said some stuff like, you grew up in the same country "so why am i doing better", ill drop him in 2 secs. So i got my agressiveness growing up in the poorer areas of the city.

Just dont look at the ghettos or other countries and say think that they cant be helped because they have these feature or attribute in there genome. Look at the whole picture and dont let discrimination get into your judgement.

bump. this makes a whole lot of SENSE!
TNCEKM is a racist trying to disguise himself that he's not, when all the while we can see through his agenda.

[TNCEKM]

ITs not all genetics is 99.9% upbringing and culture, and 0.1% genetics. Genetics play a role so small that you should never look at it when making adecision. IF you look at history, white people where so violent. "crusades", "slaves".

God...another great example of an uneducated moron pretending he knows things he doesn't.

Slavery and imperialism WERE NOT isolated to the whites (europeans)!!! However, they were the most successful. And, the crusades were spurred as a result of Muslim imperiailism! Now, yes, the crusades went way too far and were retarded, but the fact was even during that time other people and other religions were doing the same thing!

And you obviously missed the post where 54.1% of supposed "experts" believe that genetics play a role, 17% say its mostly environmental, and the rest say there is not enough evidence. Your 0.1% number is just stupid.

And, on to slavery...the African slave trade was a world-wide ordeal! Only 5% came to America! The christians, the muslims, the whites, the arabs, etc were all involved and the Africans were selling each other. There was no stealing, etc, involved.

and if you look now they are not as violent as they were before. And why does the separation barrier have to be skin color or eye size. Why dont you say dumb comments like "people who have small toes are lesser than people with big toes"? If you look at india, more than 1/2 the population is poor, but if you look at canada they have alot of indians at their universites and doing well economically. A kid who is raised in the taliban is 99.9% more likely that he will hate americans than i kid raised in nigeria. What makes these "trends" that you base your assumptions on is you.

Yes, environment and culture do play a role. A sizeable role at that. I never denied that, nor did the people siding with me.

In fact, I think the biggest problems with many minority cultures in america are environmental factors that develope because these groups tend to isolate themselves and try to differentiate themselves from "white America".

I'm not saying that we can't all live in a functional society and that we can't all be productive members of that society. I'm simply sayin people are different as of right now and as of right now a large portion of it is genetic.

People are so stupid, so ignorant, and so brainwashed by the progressives that they REFUSE to believe that people can be different.

I know a black kid who asked me why i play hockey and he thought it was for white people. (You see that part of him thinking that it is for white people is due too stupid statements like races are different.) Me and my dad took him to play hockey once and look, he likes it more than bball.

Well, that's just a stereotypical belief. That's not really on topic here.

All im saying is that there is a reason why so many black countries are poor (ie.colonization),

They were "poorer" before they were colonized for the most part. If they were never colonized, many of those areas would still be entirely tribal. This is a total misconception. Now their biggest problems stem from their screwed up government leaders.

there is a reason why some spanish countries have drug problems. They are not born to be poor and they are not born and think "im going to grow *******". There is a reason for all of this, if you learn why, by reading books and looking into history..etc, you'll see there is a reason for everything.

Yeah, they've got screwed up politicians and leaders in many of those south american countries, too, and that's the reason for their problems.

For example i asked one of my profs this question and he gave me an example why there is a high crime rates in black america.
and this is pratically what he told me:
Whites are the ones who brought the poverty to the blacks, not the blacks. If you remember there was a time when we didnt give them jobs and made them sit in the back of the bus, i hope u do remember.

Yes, and that also happened with Japanese and quite a few other ethnic groups.

So now we have alot of black people who are put in a ghetto and given barely opportunities to get rich.

Nobody is PUT anywhere.

This gives them no choice but to commit crimes for money to feed their families.

Then what is the excuse for the high murder rate? No need for violent crime to get a load of bread.

They become agressive because they are like prisoners and are treated like trash.

I do NOT believe this one bit. They are not treated like prisoners, that's ridiculous. Maybe 60yrs ago, but not now.

This is wat shapes the behiavors of the parents, which eventually gets passed on to the children. So the times change and now they are accepted in our society, but one thing still remains, THEY STILL LIVE IN THE GHETTO AND ARE POOR. And to help them, what do we "superior white people do", we make the cost of going to good colleges and universities like 20000-40000$. And wat is the result ??? We give many of them no hope of getting into these schools.

Dude, African American and other minority educational opportunities are sickening. If you happen to have decent grades you will not only have priority, but large scholarships. And...almost 90% of studnets take student loans out for their educations, they can apply for these loans too!

The cost is NOT an excuse.

I work and go to school, i know some people who work 50hrs a week and carry 15 units. I couldn't do it, but the point is, if there is a will, there is a way.

These with many more things causes black people to hate white people (which i dont blame them for), and puts them in their situation of the ghettos and gangsta talk. He was more elaborative in explaining, but some of the smart people kno where im going at.

you mean, they are supposed to hate us because we give them welfare, food stamps, priority education, priority school funding, and priority placement in jobs? Oh, wow...talk about lack of appreciation.

And no, the "smart" people don't know where you're going with this, the idealist / dellusionals may have some twisted idea of what you're getting at.

And to make it worse we have people like TNCEKM who blame them for not taking the opportunities. Seriously man open your mind. Im a white kid and my family isnt rich or have the money to send me to a good school so Im going to a community college because my parents couldn't afford a better school, and i kno that i probably wont get the best job but ill do with anything so that my kids can go to those schools that you think is really open to everyone.

Same here, i'm trying to get a studnet loan so I can pay off some of my debt and keep my ass in the U. I'm not priviledged by any means.

And ill tell you that i grew up a tough kid being in the ghetto and if a rich kid said some stuff like, you grew up in the same country "so why am i doing better", ill drop him in 2 secs. So i got my agressiveness growing up in the poorer areas of the city.

Well, I grew up a laid back guy who put tough guys in their place. I'll tell some tough guy he's a lazy bum and has no excuse and them put his ass nose to floor when he tries anything.

Just dont look at the ghettos or other countries and say think that they cant be helped because they have these feature or attribute in there genome. Look at the whole picture and dont let discrimination get into your judgement.

I do think they can be helped, and that's not the entire issue of this thread. I do think we can eventually have a one-world type community. I think that a big step will be when minorities stop trying to isolate themselves from the host majority. Multi-culturalism is bringing countries down.

My simple argument was that people are genetically different and peopel need to understand this.

I'm not saying any race or ehtnicity on the planet isn't capable of living a wonderfully productive life with the rest of us. That's NOT what I'm about. I'm saying peopel are different, get over the PC bull****, and start being proactive rather than reactive. people are so worried about "racism" its making them blind to the truth and the bigger picture.

The truth is, peopel are different. The bigger picture is looking past what you see in your little clique / culture. Realize we all need to make some adjustments to assimilate to the dominate culture in order to reduce many of the major issues of today. Cultures divide...

[TNCEKM]

This is to TNCEMK:
I kno for a fack that you did not grow up poor and you never even stayed in a ghetto for 1 night or even talked to poor people. Just talking this nonsense and making yourself feel good by calling yourself a realist in the comfort of your home. You probably look at other races doing better and benching more than you in the gym and justify it by saying, "its his race and im smarter cuz im white".
Get real man, and open up your mind.
And i can see your real political and intellectual with all your liberal bashing.

LOL...dude, i've never been rich in my life!

I ****i'n lived in a trailer for a time while my parents were going through some major hardships. Then I moved into a single bedroom with my mother and 3 brothers (5 of us). After that we had a 2 bedroom apartment iwth 8 people (mom, step dad, me, bros, and step bro and step sis). Soon after, that marriage didn't work and my mom and my three bros ended up in a three bedroom house with 5 people and my mom got back together with my dad, making 6 of us in a 3 bedroom house.

This lasted until I was 18 years old! Only at the age of 18 did I even get my own ****i'n bedroom. My parents kept working, through my dads neck injury and through the recession taht took its toll on my dads construction business, my mom went out and educated herself and god a job, and after struggling for almost 10 more years they were finally able to get a nice home for themselves.

haha, and one thing is for sure, i'm not the skinny little white kid in the corner of the gym. I don't see many people lifting more than I was even after 2 short years in the gym. But who cares right? its the internet...

I'm not "liberal bashing", i'm bashing progressive and PC policies. I'm socially liberal (drugs, gay marriage, etc), but fiscally conservative. I'm a libertarian and I just happen to think that the idealist progressives are the most ignorant people on the planet next to the bible-thumpers who always tell me i'm going to hell.

[TNCEKM]

bump. this makes a whole lot of SENSE!
TNCEKM is a racist trying to disguise himself that he's not, when all the while we can see through his agenda.

You're the biggest idiot on this forum.

How am I a racist exactly? Waht did I say that was racist? The only "agenda" i have is an anti-ignorance campaign against the morons who've been brainwashed into this dispicable PC though process.

If you could see the 15 or so people Im closes to, you'd be surprised. My g/f is asian, and many of our best friends are black and mexican.

[SaintGermain]

what determines your behaviour is your socio-economic upbringing and DNA-coded personality traits! From all your billion of DNA codes , race has like .001% Race determines physical characteristics. For example, asians have smaller bodies, etc.

As a geneticist, I just wanted to iron out this misunderstanding. There is no one gene for 'race'. Instead, race is an accumulation of MANY and DIFFERENT genes which are common to a particular population. That accounts for the physical and - I suspect - also some psychological differences.

If you think about it, human races have been evolving separately for hundreds of thousands of years. There have been some pretty major *physical* differences in that time.. it would simply be insane to argue that not one of those differences occurred in the brain, nervous system or endocrine system etc.

On a basic level, it has been clinically determined that men of African descent have higher levels of testosterone. That fact is not really up for debate. Now if you consider that testosterone is associated with aggression and impulsiveness.. we could reach some rather unPC conclusions.

Of course the very notion of race implies that we are talking about people 'on average' and not individuals. Of course there are aggressive Asians, stupid Whites and Nobel Prize winning Blacks. Human differences have not evolved so far that the need to consider individual differences has been obviated.

[TNCEKM]

Glad to have a geneticist on board here . Hopefully they wont call you a racist, too lol...

[Benchpess]

YOu moron, you dont understand one bit of what i said. "54%". Do you know how big of a number that is. So by trends there is a "54%" chance of a black kid committing a crime or lets say "25%" because your going to say not all black people commit crimes. But here you are blaming the governement.
Every time i say something that the white race doee wrong, what do you do? Like a kid you say well this race does it to. Grow up man.
Get educated and and im not going to waste my time debating you, your clearly hiding your hate behind this thread. If you have a black, an asian, and a white kid, who all grow up under the "exact same" circumstance, and you repeat this study over and over again, then the results of them performing a specific task, will be the exact same results with little variations. But your stats say that the black kid will be the fkd up one 54% of the time, right? or tell me what would the results be?
Grow up and stop hating on races, we are all the same, and our genomes only determine so little of our behaviour that social conditioning Dominates it.

All i kno is people read your posts and they'll see who the real idiot is.

[Benchpess]

As a geneticist, I just wanted to iron out this misunderstanding. There is no one gene for 'race'. Instead, race is an accumulation of MANY and DIFFERENT genes which are common to a particular population. That accounts for the physical and - I suspect - also some psychological differences.

If you think about it, human races have been evolving separately for hundreds of thousands of years. There have been some pretty major *physical* differences in that time.. it would simply be insane to argue that not one of those differences occurred in the brain, nervous system or endocrine system etc.

On a basic level, it has been clinically determined that men of African descent have higher levels of testosterone. That fact is not really up for debate. Now if you consider that testosterone is associated with aggression and impulsiveness.. we could reach some rather unPC conclusions.

Of course the very notion of race implies that we are talking about people 'on average' and not individuals. Of course there are aggressive Asians, stupid Whites and Nobel Prize winning Blacks. Human differences have not evolved so far that the need to consider individual differences has been obviated.

Post where you get these studies, or a pdf file or some sort, (not msn article lol)
When evolution occurs, it never backtracks a race. For example, evolution does not make a race dumber then where it stood. Intelligence is always naturally selected, no matter where the environment is. One race is never better than another race. It all depends on the individual.

All im saying is that social conditioning dominates genetic variation so much that its useless to discuss it. No matter the history in a family, you can always condition a kid to be totally resistant to a trait, that was dominant in the family.

[TNCEKM]

YOu moron, you dont understand one bit of what i said. "54%". Do you know how big of a number that is. So by trends there is a "54%" chance of a black kid committing a crime or lets say "25%" because your going to say not all black people commit crimes. But here you are blaming the governement.
Every time i say something that the white race doee wrong, what do you do? Like a kid you say well this race does it to. Grow up man.
Get educated and and im not going to waste my time debating you, your clearly hiding your hate behind this thread. If you have a black, an asian, and a white kid, who all grow up under the "exact same" circumstance, and you repeat this study over and over again, then the results of them performing a specific task, will be the exact same results with little variations. But your stats say that the black kid will be the fkd up one 54% of the time, right? or tell me what would the results be?
Grow up and stop hating on races, we are all the same, and our genomes only determine so little of our behaviour that social conditioning Dominates it.

All i kno is people read your posts and they'll see who the real idiot is.

Youre a grade A idiot.

I said 54% of experts believe that genetics play a major role in IQ, 17% believe environment plays a major role, and 29% believe that there isn't sufficient evidence to conclude. That's all I said. I said nothing about a black kid ****ing up 54% of the time. I have no clue where you got that from.

And what's wrong with blaming the government? They're almost all white? Won't that make you feel better? That means that white people are responsible for minority plight to some degree...isnt' that wonderful?

And, you obviously have no clue about genetics.

yes, we have TRILLIONS of nucleotide base sequences and approximately 40,000 genes, but some of those are total junk genes. We've also only mapped about 10% of our genome, which leaves 90% largely unknown. On top of all that, there can be as many as one, a few, or a large amount of genes responsible for certain traits.

I was simply explaining to you that during that time period slavery and imperialism was a world-wide phenomenon so you can't just say "the evil white people caused all thsi problem" because it was a world-wide problem. Not to mention, that happened so long ago, WTF does it have to do with the people of today?

You see...it happened again.i simply educated you a bit and you flipped out.

I'm not hating on races, I'm hating on ignorant pricks like you who can't figure this **** out.

West Africans are usually faster and more athletic than Europeans, and Europeans are usually smarter than West Africans. It doesn't mean that you can't have smart West Africans or Fast white europeans. I'm just stating that simply, genetically, people ARE different by race. Why is that so horrible? I don't see why some people have such a hard time accepting that?

[TNCEKM]

Can I change the topic here?

Can I ask WHY it is so offensive to some of you that races have differences (on average)?

I'm not claiming one is superior to another. That would be entirely environment dependent and we can setup a bunch of different scenarios to prove that each has their own benificial characteristics. Also, that's irrelevant. I just want people to get over this PC crap "people are equal"...that's all.

But WHY is it so offensive to you that people iherently different?

[Benchpess]

WTF does it have to do with the people of today?

OH, so the effects of racism only lasted about a couple of months after the blacks were given rights, and everything if fair game from then on.

Use your mind, its like the bomb of hiroshima, the effects are still evident today like racism.

Seriously man, get smart, and stop with this, this race is smarter and this race is faster crap.

There were some many immigrant african kids who came to my highschool, and blew ppl out when it came to marks. This is nonsense that you talk about.

Im not denying that races are different, but what im saying is that it is so small, that it can be discarded when looking at humans as a race.

Again my scenario, if you had a black kid who was taught by a teacher, and you had a white kid who was taught by another teacher who wasnt as good as the black kids teacher what would the results be. The results will be that the success of the black kid would be seen in his teachers ability rather than his race, and the white kids failure compared to the black kid will be due to the lesser teacher. And the results will be the same, the other way around.

Everything is different. White people with blonde hair have different characterisitics than white people with black hair. But this difference can be changed with social conditioning so easily, that it is again discarded. People make this difference bigger than it is when their is a big barrier like skin color, or eye size.


anyways im going to sleep, but take care

[TNCEKM]

OH, so the effects of racism only lasted about a couple of months after the blacks were given rights, and everything if fair game from then on.

No, they lasted longer than a couple months, but I will say the racism now is negligible in society.

Use your mind, its like the bomb of hiroshima, the effects are still evident today like racism.

There will always be "some" racism, but it is NOT institutionalized in America today and its not holding anybody back right now.

Seriously man, get smart, and stop with this, this race is smarter and this race is faster crap.

Dude, I used to think just like you...but "I got smart" lol.

There were some many immigrant african kids who came to my highschool, and blew ppl out when it came to marks. This is nonsense that you talk about.

I never said they weren't capable of doing well. I don't know where you get this idea from.

Im not denying that races are different, but what im saying is that it is so small, that it can be discarded when looking at humans as a race.

Usually, the differences will be pretty minor, yes. But, they are statistically significant in that they are continuously evident, although the "impact" of the differences should be minimal. Again, i'm not trying to say Race A won't be able to make it in society b/c they're dumb. I'm just saying, people are different, for example, there are consistent differences in traits X,Y,and Z. That's all.

And, take care of yourself too, bud. I'm honeslty not out on some racist agenda or anything, and I'm not trying to piss people off. I just find the level of ignorance and PCness in this nation and much of the western world astounding and disgusting. So, when I address simple issues like this and they're rejected so passionately, it just drives me up the wall.

[novax]

To bench, I cant believe you believe this victim of society bull****. Its rather hillarious.

The reason why some blacks remain unsucessful is because of liberal parents and liberal policies. When you expect less from people you get less. When you allow failure to exist in society, you get failure.


Every watch the movie Coach Carter?

Nearly all the blacks that I know that are intellegent are coservative and discplined. They didnt use "poor me" victim of society bull****. Afirmative action, equalizing humanity, unchallenging school environment, welfare, and many more policies allow for this type of crap.

Teachers and students are not held accountable. Instead they try to censor everything and make failure out to be some horrible thing. What good is sucess without failure? Schools are ridiculously easy and unchallenging. The good teachers are underpaid and the bad teachers are rewarded.

Students are not encouraged to suceed. Its ok to have teenage pregnancy, to do drugs, commit crimes like stealing. TV and entertainment is more important than family. Students are lumped together by age and not by capability simply because we might hurt somebodies feeling. Another type of censorship.

Who reads books anymore? They have rolemodels of a bunch of rich morons like snoop dog and kanye west instead of role models such as Rice and Collin Powel who are very disciplined and intellecutal.

I say just let natural selection work it thing. Let all the paraisite of society to disapear.

Like, I said, the government agenda is to make poor people depedent on the government.

Some of the most prosperatious people today came from poor families. How do explain Indias rapid advancements? In a captilistic society, people are not frozen into a social construct.

The problem is, we have too many liberal policies such as public schools. Public schools is a dumb ass idea that allows failed schools to continue to exist.

[bxa121]

i thnk this is a matter of perspective.
different races in different areas (socio-economic backgrounds) will grow up differently.

this is what i beleive what many people are getting at here. sure, you put a black guy in an upper middle class family, and bring him up there, he'll behave differently to say a black guy whose brought up in thhe getto, whose father is a criminal, and whose mother is a crack head, he'll have different coping strategies and different ways of expressing himself compared to the upper middle class black guy.

i think there's a jackie chan movies that kinda goes like this ( twin dragons maybe??)

i dont think its a matter of race, i thikn its a matter of upbringing.

[novax]

Also, the jews were enslaved by the romans for hundred of years.

The Jews were mascred several times. The black plague was blamed on the jews and they were nearly anilated.

The europeans did not allow the Jews to own property. Thus they became sucessful acountants because they couldn't own land or shops. They became bankers and such. And when they became sucessful at this, the europeans started to rob them and to disembow them.. Truly sickening. The Jews were also segrated and looked down upon.

Its all about discpline and conservativeness. Self-respect, self-motivation.

I dont buy into this victim of society crap.

[novax]

As a geneticist, I just wanted to iron out this misunderstanding. There is no one gene for 'race'. Instead, race is an accumulation of MANY and DIFFERENT genes which are common to a particular population. That accounts for the physical and - I suspect - also some psychological differences.

If you think about it, human races have been evolving separately for hundreds of thousands of years. There have been some pretty major *physical* differences in that time.. it would simply be insane to argue that not one of those differences occurred in the brain, nervous system or endocrine system etc.

On a basic level, it has been clinically determined that men of African descent have higher levels of testosterone. That fact is not really up for debate. Now if you consider that testosterone is associated with aggression and impulsiveness.. we could reach some rather unPC conclusions.

Of course the very notion of race implies that we are talking about people 'on average' and not individuals. Of course there are aggressive Asians, stupid Whites and Nobel Prize winning Blacks. Human differences have not evolved so far that the need to consider individual differences has been obviated.

I've heard the same thing.

Anyways, I have a question for everyone, do you think that certain countries have certain characteristics breed into them or is it culture?

You know that every country has some stereotypes. Also, I am curious if by natural selection, you can eliminate the pool of dumb people and have an average population of smarter people. Like, Japan for example. They are extremly isolated in terms of culture and they are extremely conservative. They weed out all the falures by not haveing unregulated social policies. The birth rate is actually slightly negative I think. Is it possible to have a pool of people that are superior gentically by a long process of natural selection?

you know how some countries have characteristics of being short tempered or very out going like.


Just a question. I want to know what you guys think. I dont know.... From what I've read from scientific journals, chemical make up of individuals can be traced through family. If you have several people in your family that have manic depression, there is a good chance that your offspring well have this.

Can this work on a large scale such as an entire nation?

[Woden]

Still doesn't convince me, simply because the sample size is so large; unless you're assuming this "druggy" trait is consistent amongst the vast majority of the african american's there is no way that you would have enough drug addicts and alcoholics to skew a sample size that large into one direction.

I don't see how it matters how large the sample size is if there is a factor that is not controlled for. In this case you could have a sample size much larger, but if the trend is present and not accounted for, it doesn't matter.

Well, then, that's great Anybody who can get a Ph.D in anything physics related deserves at least some respect :lol:

I really do hope that you are joking.

There is around as much biological diversity amongst dogs as there are amongst parrots, for example. Parrots are broken down into individual species and sub-species, dogs are not. The ONLY reason is that there is interbreeding going on between dogs making the gene-flow between groups somewhat consistent, whereas, with parrots their gene-flow is insignificant. So, despite the fact that many parrots can and will (given the right opportunity) interbreed, they are classified as different species and sub-species because the occurances are "insignificant" whereas with dogs, the occurances are more significant. That is the primary reason that dogs are not broken down into different species and sub-species.

That, and probably the simple utility of the matter (it would be inconvienient for there to be several speices of dogs). How do you reconcile this with the large amount of gene flow that occurs between all human populations?

Now, this extends to human as well. The biological diversity amongst parrots, dogs, and humans is VERY similar. Sensory organs, digestive organs, bone structure, etc. are all the same! The only differences in each are appearance, size, and some minor differences in physical and mental capabilities. Although, its quite obvious that with humans its on a smaller scale. But, between all the different races of people, there is more than enough diversity to accomodate sub-species definitions.

The difference between any two breeds of dogs is much larger than between two human 'races'. It is noted among scientists that human races are so alike, that there is more of a difference between any two chimpanzee groups than between two races.

From the much-qouted wikipedia article

"A thorough description of the differences in patterns of genetic variation between humans and other species awaits additional genetic studies of human populations and nonhuman species. But the data gathered to date suggest that human variation exhibits several distinctive characteristics. First, compared with many other mammalian species, humans are genetically less diverse—a counterintuitive finding, given our large population and worldwide distribution (Li and Sadler 1991; Kaessmann et al. 2001). For example, the chimpanzee subspecies living just in central and western Africa have higher levels of diversity than do humans (Ebersberger et al. 2002; Yu et al. 2003; Fischer et al. 2004).

Two random humans are expected to differ at approximately 1 in 1000 nucleotide pairs, whereas two random chimpanzees differ at 1 in 500 nucleotide pairs. However, with a genome of approximate 3 billion nucleotides, on average two humans differ at approximately 3 million nucleotides. Most of these single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) are neutral, but some are functional and influence the phenotypic differences between humans. It is estimated that about 10 million SNPs exist in human populations, where the rarer SNP allele has a frequency of at least 1% (see International HapMap Project)."

You don't need a specific "number" to separate humans into sub-species. There are plenty or organisms that have only a few sub-species that are still extant...I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

And, just because people are mixed, doesn't mean you can't define groups by sub-species. That's one of the ridiculous parts about defining a species or sub-species that is under revision / constant scrutinization right now. Just because there is gene flow doesn't mean that there aren't distinct sub-species in existence. Its a generic term developed during a conservative and misinformed time era where we believe life was full of order as opposed to what we now know...the universe tends to disorder and things aren't always so nice and easy to explain and classify.

I meant that if you wanted to seperate humans at the level of subspecies, you would need about twenty subspecies.

I can see where this may be a problem in any situation, but the difference here is that the gene-flow is massive. For instance, the whole northern part of africa has a large amount of caucasian blood. The northeastern part has a large amount of arabic blood. The average African American only has around 4/5 african blood, the rest is native american and caucasian. That is what I mean about mixed borders. Every generation, the gene pool is mixed more.

If you want to make western africans a subspeices, then you will leave most people of western african decent out in the cold. What would the scientific classification of a mulatto be, for instance? Lets say that western africans are named, Homo sapiens africanus for instance, Europeans Homo sapiens caucusus, Asains Homo sapiens asiaticus, and native americans Homo sapiens americanus. These names are just hypothetical, but you have nonetheless just divided human populations into seperate subspecies. Now, lets say someone has a grandparent from each of these races. What are they called? You already divided human populations at that genetic level, so what are you going to call them? What about the thousands of other combinations that are available?

I'll restate it, there is no good reason to declare that the different races of humans are not different sub-species. Well, at least at one time they definitely were, and in the future, we WILL be all one race. But, as things exist right now anyway, there is no reason to say we don't have different sub-species unless you find it politically or idealistically expedient to maybe define the different races as different clines.

I have just provided several very good reasons of pure theoretical nature, disregarding all practical reasons against your ridiculous idea. (the practical reasons are the best ones anyway)

If you want to see what a human subspecies might really look like, then look at Neandertahls or the people who were inhabiting Tasmania before the British found it. Maye that will open your eyes to how little variation there actually is.

[Woden]

Also, the jews were enslaved by the romans for hundred of years.

The Jews were mascred several times. The black plague was blamed on the jews and they were nearly anilated.

The europeans did not allow the Jews to own property. Thus they became sucessful acountants because they couldn't own land or shops. They became bankers and such. And when they became sucessful at this, the europeans started to rob them and to disembow them.. Truly sickening. The Jews were also segrated and looked down upon.

Its all about discpline and conservativeness. Self-respect, self-motivation.

I dont buy into this victim of society crap.

Also, in a medivial society intelligent young people would often become members of the clergy. This poses a problem, because Catholic priests cannot reproduce, while rabbis I believe can.

[TNCEKM]

I don't see how it matters how large the sample size is if there is a factor that is not controlled for. In this case you could have a sample size much larger, but if the trend is present and not accounted for, it doesn't matter.

It matters because a small polutant in a large sample would not effect the overall outcome of the statistic. And, the occurance of alcoholism is too low isntance to effect a sample of 130 people.

I really do hope that you are joking.

No, I was serious. Physics is probably the hardest subject a person can study IMO. I've never had to "study" before...slept through calculus, etc, etc. Physics on the other hand...you have no choice but to do the homework to at least some degree. Especially if you don't have a good teacher.

That, and probably the simple utility of the matter (it would be inconvienient for there to be several speices of dogs). How do you reconcile this with the large amount of gene flow that occurs between all human populations?



The difference between any two breeds of dogs is much larger than between two human 'races'. It is noted among scientists that human races are so alike, that there is more of a difference between any two chimpanzee groups than between two races.
From the much-qouted wikipedia article

"A thorough description of the differences in patterns of genetic variation between humans and other species awaits additional genetic studies of human populations and nonhuman species. But the data gathered to date suggest that human variation exhibits several distinctive characteristics. First, compared with many other mammalian species, humans are genetically less diverse—a counterintuitive finding, given our large population and worldwide distribution (Li and Sadler 1991; Kaessmann et al. 2001). For example, the chimpanzee subspecies living just in central and western Africa have higher levels of diversity than do humans (Ebersberger et al. 2002; Yu et al. 2003; Fischer et al. 2004).

Two random humans are expected to differ at approximately 1 in 1000 nucleotide pairs, whereas two random chimpanzees differ at 1 in 500 nucleotide pairs. However, with a genome of approximate 3 billion nucleotides, on average two humans differ at approximately 3 million nucleotides. Most of these single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) are neutral, but some are functional and influence the phenotypic differences between humans. It is estimated that about 10 million SNPs exist in human populations, where the rarer SNP allele has a frequency of at least 1% (see International HapMap Project)."

True, but is there some sort of standard as to how many nucleotide base sequences must differ in order for something to be classified as a different species or as a sub-species? Not according to what I've read. Afterall, there is a lot of junk DNA in our genome and relatively few differnces in our genotype can make huge differences in our phenotype.

From what I've read, species and sub-species are basically classified almost entirely be reproductive willingness and ability, and is influenced very little by actual biological differences. IMO, and in the opinion of many others, that's a stupid way to classify. That's what happens when we let old, old, old definitions make their way into an era that is far advanced.

I meant that if you wanted to seperate humans at the level of subspecies, you would need about twenty subspecies.

Oh, so you're saying that you can identify 20 potential sub-species now, eyy? jk haha

I can see where this may be a problem in any situation, but the difference here is that the gene-flow is massive. For instance, the whole northern part of africa has a large amount of caucasian blood. The northeastern part has a large amount of arabic blood. The average African American only has around 4/5 african blood, the rest is native american and caucasian. That is what I mean about mixed borders. Every generation, the gene pool is mixed more.

If you want to make western africans a subspeices, then you will leave most people of western african decent out in the cold. What would the scientific classification of a mulatto be, for instance? Lets say that western africans are named, Homo sapiens africanus for instance, Europeans Homo sapiens caucusus, Asains Homo sapiens asiaticus, and native americans Homo sapiens americanus. These names are just hypothetical, but you have nonetheless just divided human populations into seperate subspecies. Now, lets say someone has a grandparent from each of these races. What are they called? You already divided human populations at that genetic level, so what are you going to call them? What about the thousands of other combinations that are available?

Easy... Well call them Homo Sapiens caucusus X africanus if they were biracial Haven't you seen this nomenclature before?

(for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Lynx)

If you want to see what a human subspecies might really look like, then look at Neandertahls or the people who were inhabiting Tasmania before the British found it. Maye that will open your eyes to how little variation there actually is.

But, thats a human example only. And, it is much argued that the human classifications are inconsistent with traditional taxonomy. Like in the example I made, take a look at sub-species of eclectus parrots. They all look almost entirely identical and are capable (and do) interbreed. If Eclectus can have sub-species, so can humans. Either way, there is an inconsistency here, and more people will argue that its the human classification that is the inconsistent party.

edit: here are two "sub-species" of the eclectus Eclectus parrot: http://www.shadeseclectus.com/subspecies_id.htm