Protein Factory Fails Label Claim test

**Tony1** · 10-17-2002, 01:08 PM

Well we have to remember that removing emotions from this is probably more difficult than we think. His company is under fire from this test. Daddy R's was one of those neutral posts reminding us that nothing is conclusive because of one sample. Im sure he was thinking, finally a rational person in all this. He started this so we could be sure we were getting quality products at reasonable prices and know how much of this or that we were getting. Even 1fast has said that he doesn't think for a moment that anyone was doing anything on purpose. This test really shows that errors can happen and they need to be dealt with. I remember a while back optimum nutritions label was off on a test. The people who posted this had to print a retraction. There are a lot of people here who rave about optimum nutritions price and quality. A lot of people here are assuming automatically that they have been shorted now, and in the process getting angry without evidence that they were. It was my sample that was tested and I still plan on placing another order. In the back of mind I always thought that there was chance that i might get a mix that is off a little. Now im not saying that its ok, just I assumed it could happen. for example one protein didn't measure out exactly, etc.

**solution** · 10-17-2002, 01:39 PM

From a consumer's point of view, PF has a lot to clean up if it wants to regain customer confidence. This is obvious, even without the lab test. I have read enough posts from customers not getting what they ordered, to not feel secure in placing an order with PF. Alex had a great idea in opening up his store, but the store is lacking. I'm positive that he could turn it around by doing a few things, such as; Making the website more consumer friendly and easier to use, and amending the ordering process and mixing to assure that only quality mixes are sent out. Does the owner have enough competence to do this?

**DaddyR** · 10-17-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Tony1
I agree it was out of line to call him a c**t.

I thought he was referring to me!

All hail the King! Now you - all of you:

BOW DOWN BEFORE MY MAJESTY!

Growing pains man. I really enjoyed hearing Alex explain what it was like starting up his business. Seems like it has grown to a difficult point. May be time to re-examine the approach to QC. The review of suppliers reports, and making C of A's available to customers was a great first step.

Maybe time now to see if there's an economical way to introduce some additional QC. Of course you would like to make sure everything your customers get is spot on, but how to do that without breaking the bank? Lab tests costs money, and how often and what do you test for it to be worth even doing? Wish I could say offhand.

But that's how I honestly see it in this case. Nobody here is out to rip anyone off. And nobody here is out to run the honest small businessman out of business.

This random testing program of Mike's is shaking things up, that's for sure. The medium or big company that has its QC program all lined up will have a quick and effective defense when a bad result comes up. The medium-sized company that doesn't have a QC program, or whose program isn't doing the job will be forced to get its act together or fold. And of course the huge company that couldn't give a damn will keep on pimpin' it's crap and send its Lawyers to try and force forum owners to censor their boards.

But what does PF do? I think that's what everyone is asking now. Including Alex. I don't envy him.

-----
Now where did those slave girls run off to . . .

**solution** · 10-17-2002, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by DaddyR
I thought he was referring to me!

hah, I wasn't referring to you! lol

**Younggunz** · 10-17-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by solution
Perhaps I was a bit extreme. BUT, how can he have an open dialogue when he appears to disregard "college kids," putting us on the level of ignorant infants? How professional is that.

Agreed.

**snakeman** · 10-17-2002, 04:45 PM

i understand that **** happens we all stuff that goes wrong.
on my earlier post i stated why i would no longer order from pf.
the reason i wont re order is how alex is handling this thread and how he is lashing out at mike. i also own a business on the side, and stuff will go wrong, and you will be forced to fix it or go out of business. but how you speak to the consumer is what counts, and not by making statements that most of us were basically young collage bbing morons/ fools. you do not make comments like that no matter how mad you are, and in defense of your business.
we have supported pf and he has made good money off of us on this board, and now it is in jeopardy, only because of the way he is handling this problem.

**RippedUp** · 10-17-2002, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by DaddyR
Maybe time now to see if there's an economical way to introduce some additional QC. Of course you would like to make sure everything your customers get is spot on, but how to do that without breaking the bank? Lab tests costs money, and how often and what do you test for it to be worth even doing? Wish I could say offhand.

QC @ protein factory could be very easy. Alex only needs to lab test each batch of protein he receives from factories - even if those come already tested; you never know.

No need to test each individual finished product, but just make sure the ratios of flavouring/sweetners is spot-on and that the blending machine is 100% clean before preparing a new order.

As simple as that.

**DaddyR** · 10-18-2002, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by RippedUp
As simple as that.

Maybe. Maybe even just a random sampling of lots of each product from each manufacturer, like once every 3, 6, 9 months or year. And lab testing is of course only part of what needs to be looked at.

In my focus on QC product testing, I neglected the possible issue of ingredient mix-ups and human error in the preparation of custom blends. These may require looking at a variety of issues including the basic design of the various activities, checks and double-checks of critical steps in each process, staffing, work hours, various employee stressors, and all of the "touchy-feeley" stuff which can very significantly affect employees' productivity.

All of these things require periodic evaluation and adjustment as a business grows. Look, this is basic stuff. I have never taken a single business course nor run my own business, so I know this is really just common sense. I'll admit I feel a bit foolish sitting here stating the obvious as if it were some bold revelation. I know I have an annoying habit of doing so. But maybe my pointing it out will be of some help, if not to PF, then to someone in a similar situation.

**chimponarope** · 10-18-2002, 06:56 AM

I've never used PF as by the time you include shipping its not really worth my time.

As a neutral observer to this whole thing. I thought that scientific studies used 3 tests to determine the results, as one can be chance, 2 can be coincidence, and 3 is reasonable?

Although it seems that PF is having QC issues, is it fair to write off the whole company? What about getting 3 batches of the same blend at seperate times and testing them to see how consistant the results are? This would provide a fairer analysis of the products surely?

**RippedUp** · 10-18-2002, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by DaddyR
Maybe. Maybe even just a random sampling of lots of each product from each manufacturer, like once every 3, 6, 9 months or year. And lab testing is of course only part of what needs to be looked at.

No, no random testing. Just testing each and every batch of protein Alex receives.

**Tony1** · 10-18-2002, 07:02 AM

I have a question that might affect any analysis done on products that contain protein and carbs. Unless im wrong it may be impossible to meet the label claims with any mix like this. I recently started ordering my post workout protein and carbs separately because of this. When carbs, protein, vitamins, etc are all mixed in one batch and you scoop out a serving isn't possible on that serving to get more carbs than protein or vice versa. I started wondering if when i put my post workout mix together how do i know im not getting say 70 grams of carbs and 30 protein and then the next time 30 grams of carbs and 70 protein. I have always felt this way about creatine and dextrose mixed products. You may scoop out and only get 2 grams of creatine one time and 8 grams the next even if the label says 5 grams per serving. A while back i decided to try grow. At the time it came in the 2 lb. container or individual packets and i thought to myself im going to get the packets because each serving is going to be different. If you look at the results of nlarge its off the label claims. There are 10 grams more of protein and 10 less of carbs. Nobody's reacting to this because it looks like your getting more protein than you paid for but id be willing to bet the next serving could be vice versa. You will get the amount of protein thats supposed to be in the container as a whole but its going to be different with each scoop. I****trix was closer to label claims because it only contains protein. i bet if we knew how much of each individual protein was in each serving and tested for them the amount for each one would be different for each serving. It wont suprise me if Dio's mix contains some carbs that it wont match the protein calculator. At the same time im willing to bet that if you tested just the individual protein from the protein factory it will match with no problem. I think if one is worried about meeting label claims they are better off ordering ingredients separately.

**chimponarope** · 10-18-2002, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Tony1
I have a question that might affect any analysis done on products that contain protein and carbs. Unless im wrong it may be impossible to meet the label claims with any mix like this. I recently started ordering my post workout protein and carbs separately because of this. When carbs, protein, vitamins, etc are all mixed in one batch and you scoop out a serving isn't possible on that serving to get more carbs than protein or vice versa. I started wondering if when i put my post workout mix together how do i know im not getting say 70 grams of carbs and 30 protein and then the next time 30 grams of carbs and 70 protein. I have always felt this way about creatine and dextrose mixed products. You may scoop out and only get 2 grams of creatine one time and 8 grams the next even if the label says 5 grams per serving. A while back i decided to try grow. At the time it came in the 2 lb. container or individual packets and i thought to myself im going to get the packets because each serving is going to be different. If you look at the results of nlarge its off the label claims. There are 10 grams more of protein and 10 less of carbs. Nobody's reacting to this because it looks like your getting more protein than you paid for but id be willing to bet the next serving could be vice versa. You will get the amount of protein thats supposed to be in the container as a whole but its going to be different with each scoop. I****trix was closer to label claims because it only contains protein. i bet if we knew how much of each individual protein was in each serving and tested for them the amount for each one would be different for each serving. It wont suprise me if Dio's mix contains some carbs that it wont match the protein calculator. At the same time im willing to bet that if you tested just the individual protein from the protein factory it will match with no problem. I think if one is worried about meeting label claims they are better off ordering ingredients separately.

This is a very valid point. Does anyone know how many times the test was performed on the sample?

**Tony1** · 10-18-2002, 07:25 AM

Actually it wont matter how many time the sample is tested on any given test. That particular sample will always be what it is. What would be appropriate is if you pulled out a sample from say a 2lb. mix, tested it, put it back in with the complete 2 lb. mix and stirred up the whole mix and then took out another sample. THen repeat. I think trying to meet label claims on mixes of proteins, carbs, and fats is flawed without testing like that.

**Baby Huey** · 10-18-2002, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by RippedUp
QC @ protein factory could be very easy. Alex only needs to lab test each batch of protein he receives from factories - even if those come already tested; you never know.

No need to test each individual finished product, but just make sure the ratios of flavouring/sweetners is spot-on and that the blending machine is 100% clean before preparing a new order.

As simple as that.

I would respectfully disagree. While that would be a positive step, the biggest problem for PF, as Alex pretty much has acknowledged when he states that he can't guarantee that the mixing was done properly, is not with the raw materials being used but that the mixing is not adequately supervised. The human error factor seems to be huge. If one of his employees is accidentally adding dextrose to the mix rather than protein, that is a huge problem. Apparently, there are no procedures in place to make sure that the people doing the mixing are doing it correctly.

**scotty2** · 10-18-2002, 08:02 AM

Slightly O/T, but I can't think of a better time to order from the pf. You know everything's gonna be in order.

**Tony1** · 10-18-2002, 08:26 AM

I think were taking what Alex said too literally about the guarantee. No one can guarantee 100% all of the time. I think he's saying that it is a possibility that a mix up occurred. I don't think he can guarantee that 100% of the orders placed from the beginning of the company to whenever won't have a mix up anymore than we can quarantee that a person won't be hit by lightning. We are talking about a human error. Human error can even bring down the airliner you travel on. Humans are not infallible. Can he hire better people to mix? yes, can he take steps to decrease errors? sure. Even in a highly automated manufacturing system producing something like parts an occasional part won't have the correct tolerances. Thats why they do random sampling.

**RippedUp** · 10-18-2002, 08:30 AM

Yes Tony1, but the one sample we chose to test from PF came out wrong.

I mean how big of a coincidence can it be that we chose the 1 order over a few hundreds that had a human error during its blending.

Got my point?

**Tony1** · 10-18-2002, 08:33 AM

Thats why more testing is appropriate before reaching any conclusions.

**Younggunz** · 10-18-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Baby Huey
I would respectfully disagree. While that would be a positive step, the biggest problem for PF, as Alex pretty much has acknowledged when he states that he can't guarantee that the mixing was done properly, is not with the raw materials being used but that the mixing is not adequately supervised. The human error factor seems to be huge. If one of his employees is accidentally adding dextrose to the mix rather than protein, that is a huge problem. Apparently, there are no procedures in place to make sure that the people doing the mixing are doing it correctly.

Agreed. This seems to be where the problem lies...not the quality of protein Alex is getting, but the mixing process.

**DaddyR** · 10-18-2002, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Younggunz
Agreed. This seems to be where the problem lies...not the quality of protein Alex is getting, but the mixing process.

Exactly why I added my bit about doing an evaluation that goes well beyond simple analysis of samples. I won't re-type it.

Tony1 raises what is but one of many concerns addressed in any kind of analytical program. There are known and accepted methods of obtaining representative samples of a product from a container, be it a 5-lb canister, 10lb bag, 55-gallon drum, tank truck, or railroad boxcar full of stuff. It's not rocket science, but it is a science.

Someone did mention that their primary beef was with the way that Alex responded. I'll buy that, to an extent. Obviously he replied in a manner different from that of a more experienced (or less stressed, or maybe just better-coached?) business owner. A different approach could certainly have helped. But not everyone has that kind of self-control and PR skill.

This has been interesting.

**LeAnMan01** · 10-18-2002, 03:40 PM

so after all of this discussion about protein factory.... it only comes down to one thing. Is is safe to order form PF or not? Are we going to actually get what we order?

**brooklyn mike** · 10-18-2002, 03:46 PM

yeah when is that second test comin out...

**Monte Cristo** · 10-20-2002, 12:37 AM

h t t p : / / w w w . p r o t e i n f a c t o r y . c o m / n e w s . s h t m l

**RippedUp** · 10-20-2002, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Monte Cristo
h t t p : / / w w w . p r o t e i n f a c t o r y . c o m / n e w s . s h t m l

I am almost shocked...

He is still talking about Mike refusing to cooperate.... That's low if you ask me.

**brooklyn mike** · 10-20-2002, 12:11 PM

when is the next test coming out dios or whatver?>...

**Dante B.** · 10-20-2002, 02:10 PM

Alex,

Stop molesting ears with your banalities. Those that have seen threads such as this can't be swayed with such mawkish sentiments----'they're out to get me', 'this is a slander campaign by my competitors', and so on further to your neglect of logic.

Your customer base consists of people such as this, those that view message boards. For those that simply happen upon your site, then your statement means nothing as this they did not see. For those that did see such the circumstance, each word nails your coffin.

It's never good business to manufacture the nails with which one can crucify you. Cut the ****. I can empathize, mistakes do happen. However, it's the approach that builds or breaks you. Offer comfort to your consumer base, or seal your coffin with nails of trite.

Baby Huey offered spectacular insight; listen, see, understand and impliment. You're a good guy I can tell and you care for your business; most here have been more than accomodating to you. Simply bridge the gap between intent and realization.

**saxman** · 10-20-2002, 06:26 PM

Well said Dante... I need to chime in here because I have something that is very relavant to this topic. I have not ordered from the Protein Factory any more because of this situation that occured to me. Here is what happened....

Alex was trying to convince me I should really try out his new Frostein product. I was very reluctant since it is kind of expensive. They had the sale on it so I ordered a few bottles. I was in a bulking stage and I wanted an easy way to get some extra protein and EFA's on the go. Enough about that though.

So I get my order and I have to try it right away of course. I tried the Vanilla and it is actually quite good tasting. The chocolate was bearable, but not as good. I went through the first two containers and had no problems. So I get to my third container and as I get down to about the last third of the container, I find this piece of red, rubber-like material about an inch and a half long by one half inch wide (it was mixed in with the Frostein). I couldn't help but think something about that was wrong. I called up Alex and spoke to him about it. He explained he would send out a new container for me and he would credit back part of my order on my credit card.... ok so I figured that was nice of him to do that. While I'm waiting for that to happen, I get to my last container of Vanilla Frostein and there is a bunch of oil seperation on the top (at least I hope that is what is was). I found it odd none of the other containers had this problem so once again I called Alex up. He told me that is common in the Vanilla so he would send me another one or two chocolate containers out at no cost.

Guess what... I have never seen those free containers or the credit back to me. Nothing at all. He was very friendly and seemed like he was handling the situation very well. It doesn't really matter when someone doesn't come through though. I was very dissapointed to say the least.

I wasn't going to bring this public, but after seeing the way Alex has handled himself on this post, I felt this was appropriate to bring up.

**DaddyR** · 10-20-2002, 06:37 PM

The bit on the web site is definitely the WRONG approach.

Dante said it best. I urge you (everyone and anyone) to read his post once again.

**brooklyn mike** · 10-20-2002, 07:05 PM

saxmann why didnt u call him back..

**Jay Scott** · 10-20-2002, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Monte Cristo
h t t p : / / w w w . p r o t e i n f a c t o r y . c o m / n e w s . s h t m l

That is soooooo sad...

If I were a customer, and I read that, I would automatically stop ordering from there, that post does not help him or business.

Why would he have to justify himself if infact those tests are not acceptable? If the case were true, a note would not even be needed promising the world to the customer. Instead of fighting the truth something along the lines of

"While mixing these formulas, there are still many flaws in the process. We realize our quality control may not be up to par, but we are making our bests efforts to not only meet but EXEED your expectations on future purchases,

Thank you"

I would have went for that, given a few month and tried them again, but as of now they will never ever again get my business.

Jay

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