Protein Factory Fails Label Claim test

**1fast400** · 12-24-2002, 03:15 PM

I'm sorry, there's 13 pages of crap in this thread and I can't wade through it....

If your to lazy to read for 15 minutes to find the answer to your own question, then to bad. If you would have spent your time reading this thread you wouldn't have made these responses.

People are so lazy these days, they want everything handed to them on a platter. If you want to question someone, go question PF.

**AreYouSure** · 12-24-2002, 03:29 PM

Sorry, mike, I am not lazy. I spent well over an hour reading through 7 pages. of posts. I also read the usenet thread. I also did a search.

Why do you keep avoiding my rather simple questions. Are you really suggesting that you are prohibited by court order from discussing the contents of a letter from a lawyer. I don't buy it. In fact, I think the mere suggestion that this is the case is absurd.

Make me eat my words.

**AreYouSure** · 12-24-2002, 04:17 PM

Instead of shooting the messenger with answers like "gee you want everything handed to you on a platter" (how lame is that response?) why not ANSWER my question? This issue is not about PF. Its about you. How credible can your testing be if you are gonna cave when you get some lame letter? Its just a LETTER. That is not the same thing as what you claimed -- that you are "not allowed" to post. Don't claim you are "not allowed" to do something -- you CHOOSE not to. And now you are afraid to even post or discuss the letter? There is obviously nothing in that letter that prohibits you from discussing it. That claim is just patently absurd.

Nevertheless, in keeping with your request I searched every post you made after 20 oct when you wrote you got "papers." There is nothing indicating you cannot talk about the contents of the papers. There is nothing really setting forth the contents of the letter. There is nothing indicating the papers were anything other than a letter. In short there is nothing responsive to any of the questions I posed. At least I could not find this. Feel free to correct me.

But here's what you did say on the 22nd of October

I get things tested. I always have and always will. I will continue to test things in the future. I will always report my findings no matter what they are. I have taken the results down from my website. I got papers on my desk while out at the O. I addressed them on monday. What was put in front of me is laughable at best. I have no desire to make Alex look any worse, he has done a good enough job. The only demand that I can meet is one of retraction.

It looks to me like that is not true.

Hey, look, this is just my opinion (which you will note *I* have been very courteous and decidedly non-ad hominen about expressing) but this precedent -- the I'll cave if a supp co. spends $100 bucks to get a lawyer to write to write me a letter -- troubles me far more than anything PF did or did not do.

Looks to me like you got a letter that you yourself characterized as lame and in response caved.

**1fast400** · 12-24-2002, 05:12 PM

I'm trying to go about this in a nice way. The situation legally has changed since then. The first thing faxed to me was laughable (they thought I was a protein manufacture). However there have been other papers since then. The last time this all got stirred up I spent 6 hours on the phone deal with crap associated with it. I don't have time to deal with that. I'm trying to make sure PF and I see eye to eye before posting. WHY? As mentioned, I don't feel like ****ing with the flood of calls that will await me.

So sit here and bitch all you want to, I don't care. I'm the one spending the money to do all this, not you. I'm the one that has to deal with it afterwords, not you. If you want to spend over 1000 bucks to answer these questions, then knock yourself out, till then just sit and wait.

**AreYouSure** · 12-24-2002, 05:50 PM

I didn't bitch, I asked pretty reasonable questions. I still don't know the answers. I didn't call *you* "lazy" and I don't think I've said anything terribly impolite.

You said you were "not allowed." I still cannot understand why. So I asked you to post the letter. You said you could not even discuss it. I still cannot understand why. You said go look it up in the thread its all there. Now you say things have changed.

Saying you want to see eye to eye is different than saying you aren't "allowed."

I do have a new question. Have you had a initial consult with a lawyer (they're typically free y'know). One where you asked "gee, what does this letter mean? Can I be liable for defamation if what I say is true? Would my homeowners/business insurance cover me regardless?" I just really don't want to see a half-assed letter scare folks off from publishing true information without getting some informed legal advice. That's the precedent that concerns me.

**Sixpack** · 12-24-2002, 05:50 PM

Very well said MIke I agree with u 100% i will not even say whats on my mind i don;t want to stirr anything up , but I will say this so many people want the answer right away without know what the **** is going on cause they are ignorant and inconsiderate.
Sixpack

**1fast400** · 12-24-2002, 05:57 PM

I put a value on time. It is not worth blowing a day just to worry with this worthless crap. In light of everything PF has done if people STILL want to buy from them, then let them be.

Saying you want to see eye to eye is different than saying you aren't "allowed."

I still maintain both statements. I could post them if I REALLY wanted to and then fight with it later, but I prefer not to do that. I'm right on both accounts. I'm not allowed to (which doesn't mean I can't), I'm just being respectable.

Now....go bug someone else.

**Ne0_ErROR** · 12-25-2002, 01:37 AM

It's 4:30 AM here and I have been reading this for a while now. From what I see ******** was just trying to do us a favor but now could potentially be sued. He obviously doesn't want to waste his time even if he could win that suite and we should respect that.

I never bought from PF and probably never. I did not like some of Alexs college student comment. I am a high school student by the way. I would like to see those results posted however. Perhaps if they are good I will give PF a try. If they are bad I would like Alex to come here, be the bigger man and apologize. Look at firestone tires, the CEO made a commercial saying they screwed up, and will fix things, and now almost no one has any malice towards them.

**Chrisk** · 12-25-2002, 04:13 AM

well all i have to say is

IF THEY WERE A GOOD TEST THEY WOULD WANT IT RELEASED.

KINDA like an I TOLD YOU SO!

I don't know i was jsuta bout to order from them till i found this tread. even if it was a good test i don't think i would order from them to much skepticism. to many questions

**sawboy2** · 12-26-2002, 12:16 PM

All the tests came out in our favor. There was supposedly an issue with the carb content of the 520. Our protein calculator has the carb amount incorrect. The 520 page is correct on the website.

Protein-dry basis (g)��..77.5
Protein-as is (g)��..75.7
Moisture (g)��.2.3
Ash (g)��.4.4
*Carbohydrates (g)��..8.5
Lactose (g)��.��..5.0
Total Calorie (Kcal)��...��.374

But I would be a hyprocrite to post them because the tests are very reckless. Its just like buying drugs off the street. They will always be invalid even if they are in my favor. So that is why I dont post them.

Alex
**************.com

**1fast400** · 12-26-2002, 12:37 PM

You did exactly what I wanted you to do. I'll post all the results later. I'll be sure to show that Hydro Whey which is off by 17g of carbs.

**sawboy2** · 12-26-2002, 12:44 PM

I was just going to let the readers of this post know that you intended to post them its just that we were waiting to iron some things out. Calm down mike

alex
**************.com

**AliveGuy** · 12-26-2002, 12:54 PM

Alex,

You should thank Mike if these test are what you say. He has just determined that the true problem with the Protein Factory doesn't lie with its proteins, but with the mixing. Of the samples submitted, weren't only 1 or 2 protein blends? These results only prove that the pure proteins are almost what you claim...but nothing more. Now you just have to mix them properly, which is really the point where everyone has been questioning all along. By the first tested sample, it seemed obvious that there was a massive mixing error.

What steps have you taken in the last few months to imporve this mixing control and esure that nothing of this sort will happen again? I surely hope you have taken at least a few steps.

**1fast400** · 12-26-2002, 12:55 PM

I was just going to let the readers of this post know that you intended to post them its just that we were waiting to iron some things out. Calm down mike

I intended to post them all along. However, you decided to seek defense with a lawyer. I was nice enough to email you the results before posting. I even told you I would let you APPROVE the post before I did it. Yet you STILL stuck another lawyer on me.

If these results wouldn't tarnish your image Alex why wouldn't you let me post them? Why wouldn't you let me post them, EVEN if you could read it before I posted?

**AliveGuy** · 12-26-2002, 01:01 PM

Maybe, try and follow this logic. IF the pure proteins came out all horrible (which isn't true except for the Hydro as been revealed thus far) PF can claim that their source has been screwing them, played the victims, and redeemed their good image in the publics eyes by securing a new source and offering specials.

Instead, this only proves that it has been mixing all along that has caused the problems with the PF for the last couple of months. So, in essence, PF remains the joke they always have been.

**RippedUp** · 12-26-2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by AliveGuy
PF can claim that their source has been screwing them,

Even that excuse is not good enough. A reputabe supp. company CEO should test all his raw ingredients and make sure it is all 100% before blending them/sending them.

**AreYouSure** · 12-29-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by ********
You did exactly what I wanted you to do. I'll post all the results later. I'll be sure to show that Hydro Whey which is off by 17g of carbs.

What happened to this?

**1fast400** · 12-29-2002, 01:43 PM

Web guy had to go out of town over the weekend. I didn't know this. As soon as he gets back in, everything will be posted.

**1fast400** · 12-30-2002, 04:49 PM

http://66.175.58.254/store/article.php?&articleID=8

These are the results. I will say this. These results were sent to me by a big buyer of PF products. These were all of his samples. They were not sent direct from PF. This person sent me a complete spread sheet with the items he sent. When you go to the link you will see in RED what they were supposed to be according to the PF calculator at that time. The main issues were with sample number 5 and 10. The hydro whey had 17g of carbs, when the calculator at that time said 0.

**AreYouSure** · 12-30-2002, 05:44 PM

I am assuming based on these numbers that the products tested did not contain any flavorings....can you confirm? So the mixing issue, along with hydrolized whey results, probably remain the most substantial concerns?

Also, do you know what time period these were shipped by PF? IOW, were these shipped immediately after the last debacle, a period when one would assume much tighter regulation of the shipped?

The saddest part of these tests is that even if one chose to order from proteincustomizer rather than PF, it seems that one of the lessons is even if one finds a source that you trust, the mixing issue and lack of consistency/quality control may make it is perilous to order mixing of any kind, including a flavoring mixed in.

Perhaps proteincustomizer should consider offering the flavorings separated from the protein?

**ShadowJack** · 12-30-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by AreYouSure
I am assuming based on these numbers that the products tested did not contain any flavorings....can you confirm?

Samples #1 thru #10 were all proteins, vanilla flavored and sweetened with splenda. Sample #11 was (pure) flax powder.

Originally posted by AreYouSure
So the mixing issue, along with hydrolized whey results, probably remain the most substantial concerns?

My posts on another board to similar questions:

The protein calculator still says 0g carbs for Hydrolyzed Whey 520 on PF's website. Under the "Nutritional Facts" page (which is identical to the back of the sheet that the PF invoice is printed on and sent with each order), it also lists 0g for carbs for Hydro 520. However, under the actual Hydro 520 product description from the protein page link, it lists 8.5g carbs for the Hydrolyzed Whey 520. Note, that this is new in the last ~1-2 weeks. It was changed on that page after Mike sent the results to PF. So, 2 places on their website (and the printed nutritional facts sheet that they send with each order) still list the carb content as 0g for Hydro Whey 520, and on a third page they list it as 8.5g carbs (per 100g of product).

I also see that they now have a disclaimer on the top of their protein calculator page, which reads: "**This page is for entertainment purposes only! It is ONLY here to give you an idea for a formula. To obtain nutritional information on your formula, please contact the Protein Factory!!**". To the best of my knowledge, this is new to that page since Mike sent them the test results, as I don't recall seeing that listed on the top of the page before.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the protein (only) blends that Mike had tested (samples 8, 9, and 10), the results actually show that their mixing was done properly for these samples. i.e. The results pretty much show that the blends tested out as being "the sum of their parts."

However, I don't disagree that improper mixing does seem to be a large part of their problem on other orders where the customer reported a "screw-up." Especially on custom blends that contained carbohydrates (dextrose, malto, fructose), and were not protein only blends.

Originally posted by AreYouSure
Also, do you know what time period these were shipped by PF? IOW, were these shipped immediately after the last debacle, a period when one would assume much tighter regulation of the shipped?

The samples were taken from two orders I received from PF this summer; one in June and another in August. Both orders were received well before the testing was done on the 1st sample sent in by Tony1.

**1fast400** · 12-31-2002, 07:08 AM

The saddest part of these tests is that even if one chose to order from proteincustomizer

I will be testing them within the next two months.

**An Inconvenient Bro** · 12-31-2002, 07:54 AM

Actually I have been kicking this idea around for awhile due to the lack of publics trust of the mixing process, and I have been getting many requests for it so what I have done is sell it separately to anyone who asks, basically 23 grams of the flavor/sucralose combo for a buck - enough to flavor one pound of protein, now just to get my web guy to put it in the cart !

**Tony1** · 12-31-2002, 08:30 AM

Thanks again for the tests Mike. The tests look better this time. Even on their calculator page they have a disclaimer saying that the numbers are give or take 5 grams because you can't measure out the same amount everytime you scoop out some protein. I also beleive that ordering your proteins separetely and mixing them yourself is the best choice. All in all I think the protein factory along with the protein customizer should be open to this kind of testing now and then so they can make sure they are sending out a quality product. And instead of pointing fingers just say we will correct the problem. ONE QUESTION TO PROTEIN CUSTOMIZER: Do you have any plans on a flavoring system for your bcca's so we can order them separetely or does this interfere with your product ICE?

**amarus** · 12-31-2002, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by AreYouSure
Perhaps proteincustomizer should consider offering the flavorings separated from the protein?

I recently ordered from ProteinCustomizer, and they were nice enough to agree to send me the flavorings separately. They come in the form of a powder, and it is easy enough to do your own mixing.

**amarus** · 12-31-2002, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Customizer
Actually I have been kicking this idea around for awhile due to the lack of publics trust of the mixing process, and I have been getting many requests for it so what I have done is sell it separately to anyone who asks, basically 23 grams of the flavor/sucralose combo for a buck - enough to flavor one pound of protein, now just to get my web guy to put it in the cart !

Ah, I see you already answered this one.

I think I should read ALL of the posts before replying

**An Inconvenient Bro** · 12-31-2002, 09:02 AM

Tony, I have flavored bcaa+glutamine in my cart now

**Baby Huey** · 12-31-2002, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Customizer
Tony, I have flavored bcaa+glutamine in my cart now

What, if any, difference is there between your flavored BCAA mix and Ice?

**An Inconvenient Bro** · 01-01-2003, 09:03 AM

the diff is a few things, first off I am at liberty to disclose the formula on the PC version, there is also no hstidine or proline in the PC version, and the PC version has the glutamine in at 30%.

**1fast400** · 01-02-2003, 07:25 AM

Thanks again for the tests Mike

Anytime. I'll be doing some more test soon. Watch out customizer

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