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  1. #301
    Objectivist Younggunz's Avatar
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    Good post Alive Guy. How in the hell could you ever conduct a double blind test? What would you control? What would be the experimental? We aren't testing for effects in humans and that is what you would use a double blind for. Seriously, what was your idea with a double blind test? I would love to know how you would set that up.

    Perhaps give one batch of PF protein a placebo and another batch...ummmm....another scoop of protein....and then see....ummm...if the experimental group of protein gets sick? Oh, but what if the controlled group of PF protein has a placebo effect, and the protein starts to get regular headaches? Oh geez, but the experimental group of protein is getting headaches and the runs. Oh dear, oh dear...time for the document study!

    wow

    Thought I would lighten things up.
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  2. #302
    Objectivist Younggunz's Avatar
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    Don't forget that we will have to do regular interviews with the protein. You know, ask it how it's urination habits have been and such.
    "Building muscle is a science, and as such must have conclusions brought through by scientific, technical, methodical, and exact means...not by hearsay, gossip, and unfounded information. " - Younggunz
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  3. #303
    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    lol younggunz..

    Lets look at this from another point of view. Fact 1) The PF sample came out missing label claims. OK...this is 1 sample...not a representative sample. This we know...

    But you know what...maybe Mike just got lucky, and got the 1 bad bacth out of 100. Maybe PF is more on top of things, and Mike got really lucky and got the 1 bad out of a 1000 batches...well, the more faith you put in the PF factories quality, the harder it is to believe and less probable it becomes that Mike got that 1 bad batch out of 'X'. So, in my opinion, since he did get a bad batch...if 'X' ranges from 1 to 1000, this is 100% to a .1% error rate. In my opinion, that is TOO MUCH error. And if 'X' is above 1000, it is too hard to believe Mike got that one bad batch.

    So, I dont care how lucky Mike got. It is unreasonable to believe he was too lucky and 'X' is huge (if any of youve seen Mike's face, youd know how unlucky he truly is). And on the other hand, I think any screwup within a reasonalbe range of 'X' is too much for a company doing custom proteins.
    Last edited by AliveGuy; 10-24-2002 at 01:59 PM.

  4. #304
    Member Jertschub's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gene
    I agree with you for the most part, but I've noticed that most of the "statistical insignificance" arguments have been used as a means of ignoring all of these other QC blunders. This is merely the first time a lab test was able to confirm it (albeit, not comprehensively). Prior to this all we had was anecdotal evidence and hearsay (and lots of it). No one doubts the necessity of further lab testing, but we can't look at this like an isolated, haphazard, human error incident.
    I'd like to note i never once defended the QC at PF and in fact I've been pretty quick to say Alex is a moron IMO. I don't, however, like the tactics being used against him. It gets my hackles up when I see stuff like this going on even when I don't particularyl (or dislike really) the company or the owner against whom they are being used.

    Some people here seem to think of 1fast400 as a tireless consumer advocate fighting for truth justice and the American Way; to which I respectfully say, Bull****. By the way, the issues surrounding "chain of custody" were explained to 1fast400 by no less a supplement guru than Pat Arnold quite some time ago. Mike can stop pleading ignorance here, it is unseemly.

  5. #305
    Objectivist Younggunz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AliveGuy
    lol younggunz..

    Lets look at this from another point of view. Fact 1) The PF sample came out missing label claims. OK...this is 1 sample...not a representative sample. This we know...

    But you know what...maybe Mike just got lucky, and got the 1 bad bacth out of 100. Maybe PF is more on top of things, and Mike got really lucky and got the 1 bad out of a 1000 batches...well, the more faith you put in the PF factories quality, the harder it is to believe and less probable it becomes that Mike got that 1 bad batch out of 'X'. So, in my opinion, since he did get a bad batch...if 'X' ranges from 1 to 1000, this is 100% to a .1% error rate. In my opinion, that is TOO MUCH error. And if 'X' is above 1000, it is too hard to believe Mike got that one bad batch.

    So, I dont care how lucky Mike got. It is unreasonable to believe he was too lucky and 'X' is huge (if any of youve seen Mike's face, youd know how unlucky he truly is). And on the other hand, I think any screwup within a reasonalbe range of 'X' is too much for a company doing custom proteins.
    Huh? J/K
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  6. #306
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    I am still waiting to hear what law he broke....

    What tort he committed....

    I can think of a few claims, but I don't think any would stand up in court.

  7. #307
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    The shame of it all is that Alex could've probably nipped this in the bud by coming out with a little b.s. expressing their concern that even one sample should give such a bad result, powerfully stating their commitment to quality, describing everything they do now that serves to assure quality, and promising to re-evaluate their operation and implement any appropriate additional controls found necessary.

    IMO, That much would've been enough for most folks, at the very beginning. As far as it has gone now, he'll have to do quite a bit more than that to regain most of his customers' confidence.
    Overweight and arrogant

  8. #308
    Member Phil Caravaggio's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AliveGuy
    Sorry if Im getting emotional about the subject (this post has just dragged on entirely too far)...but really...15 samples is quite sufficient in my view for a statistically balanced stufy andd double blind is absolutely irrelevant to this type of study.
    Hey, I'm with you. 15 samples is more than enough for the consumer to make a decision about PF. I was referring originally to people blowing 1 sample out of proportion, that's all. If we disagree there, then fine. While not a lawyer, I would imagine that a lawsuit will ensue if these tests show PF products to be ****, because chain of custody is important. So while the consumer will benefit from these results, it is quite possible that Mike will not. If you are interested in continued testing of other products and other companies, as I am, then it is also in your best interests that the testing be done in a way that protects Mike legally.

    All science aside, were not testing pharmeceuticals...this is minor stuff. A little leeway can be given. We aren't declaring science here...simply giving the consumer an IDEA.
    Protein vs. pharmaceutical: Agreed, I said the same thing myself on MFW. The last sentence is the problem. What we have so far isn't very scientific, but it has the all the appeal of science to the uninitiated. When an entire company is on the line, I don't want an IDEA, I want conclusive evidence. If you want to disagree with my conception of the ethical problem here, than go ahead and make your case.

    Alex's silly comments and other QC complaints are totally different matters, and people should certainly take them into account when deciding whether to buy from PF. However, they have nothing to do with testing procedures, chain of custody,etc.

    I guess youd rather be a blind consumer, no doubt...cause no one besides a government funded research lab or university can meet your testing criteria (which doesn't need to be met for this type of testing anyway)
    This is a ridiculous remark. Find one quote where I said that consumers should ignore evidence and be blind to the test. I said take it with a grain of salt.

    About the testing criteria, I disagree. I didn't say Mike should conduct a peer-reviewed, double-blind study, I said he should show the same care and attention to detail, which is necessary to deal with the inevitable accusations of bias and impropriety. Despite your pedantic objection, there is an analogy here: Mike doesn't touch the sample, PF doesn't know its being tested. That would be enough for most people, myself included, and it is not that difficult to meet those criteria.

    PC

  9. #309
    Registered User Bobo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
    When an entire company is on the line, I don't want an IDEA, I want conclusive evidence.

    PC
    Bingo.

  10. #310
    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    Phil,

    I *think* that youll be getting more what you want in the near future and hopefully thatll put an end to it. Personally, I feel everyone needs to chill in the meantime on th subject until those next results get in. Again...this isn't the truth is a Socratic way...youll never know the truth. But after the next series of tests, Ill be a lot closer to the truth and we will all be smarter consumers than before.

    Were learning here. Mike's learning here. Alex, I doubt, is learning here, but he is probably getting things done a bit better on the QC side. I just dont want anyone to refute the actual test...but rather, its statistical significance. To some, 1 bad batch out of a 1000 or so is significant enough to cause them to stop buyin from the PF. For the others in between, perhaps it was just Alex's attitude that turns them off, or past events. For those of you not convinced either way, I do recommend we all just hold on till the new results are in. Im hoping that will clear up all doubt and we wont need another 10 pages. Its probably a waste of time for everyone.

  11. #311
    Member Phil Caravaggio's Avatar
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    AG:

    I knew you were a nice, sensible guy under all that outward hostility. :-) Maybe we _can_ all just get along, after all. I definitely agree, this will soon enter the digression/mental masturbation part of thread, if it hasn't already. For my contribution to that, I am truly sorry. Wait . . . no, no I'm not :-)

    Seriously, all the valid points on both sides of the coin have been made. I'm interested to see how this will all play out.

    PC

  12. #312
    Registered User Gene's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AliveGuy
    But you know what...maybe Mike just got lucky, and got the 1 bad bacth out of 100. Maybe PF is more on top of things, and Mike got really lucky and got the 1 bad out of a 1000 batches...well, the more faith you put in the PF factories quality, the harder it is to believe and less probable it becomes that Mike got that 1 bad batch out of 'X'.
    Are we reading the same thread? Your post here is an excellent example of ignoring the past. I personally know of 7 people to have used PF, and all of them have had an erroneous order atleast once. That is 100% error, 7 for 7. Only 2 of them have remained customers. Such anecdotal evidence is not uncommon, and if you look back through the pages you will find more. This fact is continually ignored, as the issue of statistical insignificance and experimental imperfections continues to be propagated. This I cannot understand.

    Please explain to me also how fortuity fits into this, and how there is even a hint of reason to doubt that (1) there are serious structural flaws in the nerve center of this company, (2) that the consumer is at risk for deceit/fraud, or (3) that this situation will remain for the same reasons it has remained in the past despite an abundance of consumer complaints. Please feel free, anyone, show me some reason for dissenting any of these three claims. Therein continues to lie my confusion for any "benefit of the doubt" or any other accompanying words of optimism and support that some continue to throw the way of Alex and Protein Factory.

    Gene
    Last edited by Gene; 10-24-2002 at 02:47 PM.
    No one ever says, "It's only a game" when their team is winning.

  13. #313
    Member Monte Cristo's Avatar
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    Jertschub you wrote:

    <B> "...I don't, however, like the tactics being used against him. It gets my hackles up when I see stuff like this going on even when I don't particularyl (or dislike really) the company or the owner against whom they are being used."</B>

    You have a lot of gall to say something
    like that when in your very first post on
    on this board you put forth a theory you
    clearly pulled out of your ass:

    <B>".. It looks like 1fast400 in conjunction with certain unnamed parties (duh, you think I don't see you?), who have formed a recent partnership, have gotten together to make Alex look bad and Alex being Alex has helped them every step of the way. I think this unnamed sleezebag is planning to expand into the protein business and would like to see PF knocked out of the game or at least knocked down several pegs..."</B>

  14. #314
    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    Gene, I was only examining one case, giving the PF the benifit of the doubt to show that even if you look at this isolated case as a single flaw within a reasonable range of orders, then the QC is still unsuitable for this type of business.

    Trust me...I dont even want to start figuring in the otehr crap. Scary

  15. #315
    Objectivist Younggunz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
    I was referring originally to people blowing 1 sample out of proportion, that's all.

    PC
    No one blew this out of proportion more then Alex himself!!!!! This is when the whole company began to be questioned; when Alex started making idiotic comments.
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  16. #316
    Member brooklyn mike's Avatar
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    the thing i dont like about pf is the grls who answers the phone, shes always in rush to get me off the phone like she never tells me how much it comes out to or like repeats it back to me and i just feel like im gonna get like 10 pounds of splenda in the mail..... i ordered from 1fast for the first time and i liked the way he operated like i felt comfortable giving him my credit card info and like i knew what i ordered is what i was goin to recieve...
    mike

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    Message Board King 1fast400's Avatar
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    I'm packing up the samples tomorrow to be sent to the lab, Alex will get the results when it is done.
    Questions? Email me at My65cuda@aol.com

    DON'T PM ME

  18. #318
    Objectivist Younggunz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
    When an entire company is on the line, I don't want an IDEA, I want conclusive evidence.

    PC
    When a company is being proved to have what it says...then yes, I want conclusive evidence. When a company has the slightest question of being proved wrong...a consumers ears SHOULD perk up. It is called being a cautious consumer.
    "Building muscle is a science, and as such must have conclusions brought through by scientific, technical, methodical, and exact means...not by hearsay, gossip, and unfounded information. " - Younggunz
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  19. #319
    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    Now I know this is irrelevant, and no one could care, and Alex wont probably read this....

    I was simply wondering, could we have a picture or several of the PF's facilities...seeing a professional work site would surely restore consumer faith a bit.

    Anyway...I am serisous about this. You NEVER know what a place looks like over the interent...could be a barn. Im absolutely not making presumptions or trying to be rude, but I would simply like a genuine picture...out of curiosity and lost consumer faith.

    That is a challenge Im dropping. Ill call PF tommorrow.

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    maybe some illegal immagrant mixes the protein in alex's bath tub....
    mike

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    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    Thats my point. Im not saying he does. But really. We DONT know. We are expected to buy from a factory we really know nothing about. This is scary being an internet consumer. I really need to make it a habit to not buy from places that I do not know are legit.

    A picture could clarify what we are putting our faith in and the professional environmnet in question. If a series of pictures could be produced, it would surely help PF's stand. If not, then it makes this company more suspicious.

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    Senior Member Tony1's Avatar
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    I was simply wondering, could we have a picture or several of the PF's facilities...s

    Alive guy, this subject you bring up I mentioned a while back in another thread. There was another debate about the protein factory. Was it legit? I brought up this point of pictures as well as some other points about what Alex could do to clear the air. Im sure a search on this site will provide the details. I did mention some photo's, procedures for mixing, another one im still curious about was keeping tabs on expiration dates, sanitation, etc. Most people attacked anyone offering any points. It was more of a how dare you atmosphere in that discussion. I also emailed Alex and asked him to join in on the board. Both to answer questions people might be concerned about and to help people understand more about the different proteins. Much in the same way that Patrick Arnold, Par and Bill Lewylen (please forgive the spelling) have. Alex posted once and mentioned that he always gets kicked off the boards. I don't think any points were discussed and we never heard from him again. I know someone on this board or another board said they went to the address once and there was no sign except for a pet supplies sign. THis guy said he called Alex and was told they leased space in the back of the warehouse. I still continued to order. I dont think we will see the results of these 15 tests though. Whomever's protein this is is probably not going to post the results. I still believe the individual proteins will test out fine. Its just a shame that all of this is going on.

  23. #323
    Member AliveGuy's Avatar
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    This is indeed unsettling. A pet supply shop? heh. Come on folks, we put this stuff in our bodies!!! What happens if they are only given a table in the back by the Heartgaurd or worming medicine the pet shop supplies. On one side, people are demading 1Fast400 follow all these rigdid procedures, yet they are ignoring the fact that the PF has not proven they adhere to any pocedures when mixing. Now that is a one sided argument.

    I want my protein coming from a facility where people are standing around in white jumpsuits, where the vats are made of pure stainless steel, where there is order and room for mixing and storage...where blah blah blah...If Im goign to put this in my body, it better come from a place that has facilities equal to a manufacturing place like Optimum. Walk yourself into LPJ labs...your not going to see fishtanks, scratching posts, chew toys, horse feed, and leashes anywhere except PA's office (Hes into strange stuff).

    MAYBE, just maybe it does...maybe Alex runs a class act down there and Im just *way* out of line here. But until I have PROOF of his operating procedures and worksite, Im not ordering from them again.

    And another thing Tony1...that whole line about him getting banned from message boards is a load of BS. That simply doesn't happen. Mods are too lazy to ban anyone most of the time...hehe. Message boards are an open forum. He may jsut be avoiding self incrimination.

  24. #324
    Registered User China Boy's Avatar
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    AliveGuy, it is obvious hygiene will not be up to the standards of the large manufacturers. You'll just have to accept the fact if you are going to buy from them then. I mean do they have the necessary hygiene certificates? I doubt so. Just face it, you get what you pay. That is why I would never buy from them.

    I mean customers have asked them to show photos of their facilities long time ago. Has PF done so? Not that I know of. Make your own conclusions.

  25. #325
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    Originally posted by AliveGuy
    On one side, people are demading 1Fast400 follow all these rigdid procedures, yet they are ignoring the fact that the PF has not proven they adhere to any pocedures when mixing. Now that is a one sided argument.
    I had to bump this thread alone for that statement. Well said!

  26. #326
    Senior Member Tony1's Avatar
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    Well, just because they may lease space in the back of a warehouse doesn't mean its not clean. Ive never had a problem with my orders in that respect. Now again this is just what someone posted on another board so its just heresay. ALex has said that they provide proteins even to cancer patients so I don't think hygiene is an issue. Not to mention he has said he pays out a lot in insurance so what he says is in there has to be in there. It looks like we are going to go round and round here. I think they just need to work on reducing some errors and i am sure any future testing will help end this thread. I dont think we need a witch trial because the mix was tested. If you go to the PF website and look under customer comments one of these customers states that he had the protein tested. I doubt there was a lot of problems with this test. And yeah i know they didn't post the results.

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    Senior Member Tony1's Avatar
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    I just wanted to add that I invited Alex by email that one time because I wanted him to have a chance to say something about some of the posts Ive seen in the past. I know having gone through the eighties in highschool using Weider's anabolic mega packs that their are people like ALex who started their companies because they were tired of being ripped off. The same goes for Mike. He tests products to help us make sure we are getting what we paid for. ( I still cant beleive i used those mega packs and thought they would help. Thats me at the age of 15.) Maybe ALex is just used to people making up rumors and has tired of it.

  28. #328
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    This new subject of the Protein Factory's facilities is ridiculous. If you want your protein coming from some huge factory where all the workers wear white jumpsuits, then you can buy protein from one of them. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that those types of things cost extra money, and this extra money will be reflected in the price of the protein. That aside, we need to understand that the Protein Factory is not a factory. To my knowledge, it is a distributor. Alex even mentioned in this thread where he gets his protein from. Who cares if it is a barn? Does that make it bad protein? I think AliveGuy is just bringing this up because he needs another tool to discredit the Protein Factory with, and if he got the pictures he would say "look how shady this place is, the Protein Factory is a bad company!"

    Second, you can bet your ass that it is some illegal immigrant filling out the orders. They are America's source of cheap labor. But of course, illegal immigrants are inferior human beings (are they even human beings?), and therefore would frequently botch such complicated things as putting different amounts of powder in a bag. They probably didn't even have any job training.

    Third, I realize that it is shady that I jumped into the thread this late with my meager number of posts.

    Fourth, bump to all of Jertschub's posts. How is it so far-fetched that 1fast is in partnership with the new protein company? Everyone's answer is: he announced the tests over a month ago, so this cant have anything to do with the new company. Wait, but the protein man probably came up with the idea for his new company over last weekend, and it's opening up tomorrow. I mean, there's no way that his new business could have involved months of planning.

    Fifth, the legality of the test. I am no lawyer, but 1fast posted the results of a pseudo-scientific test with the intention that Protein Factory customers conclude from the [pseudo-scientific] test that the Protein Factory scams its customers, thereby driving them away from the Protein Factory. I think this would be ok under normal circumstances, but the fact that 1fast operates a business (which competes with PF on SOME LEVEL) changes the stiuation to one where 1fast will benefit. Therefore I would call this libel (libel=written, right?). Anyways, Im sure someone will come along and wipe my ass on this law, and to him I say whoopdie doo I don't really care about this aspect of the issue.

    Sixth, I have tried to avoid name-calling in this post. I have seen in this thread that many of you took offense to being called "college kids" (or whatever he called you, I can't remember off the top of my head.). I personally agreed with this statement. How many of us here really understand the legal implications of this pseudo-scientific test? And boy, that remark really pissed a lot of you guys off. I can't believe the number of complaints about it. You guys are looking too much at the shell of what he said, and not enough at what he meant on the inside.

    Seventh, all the pro-PF people are condescending because of the nature of this thread. There are so many people saying, "Alex is an *******, Im never buying from PF again." It gets frustrating to read so many people blindly saying stuff like "1fast, keep up the testing, man, youre the greatest." These statements are irritating and ignorant on some level. They should be irritating to both sides, because I think the majority of us would agree that this test was statistically insignificant.

    Anyways, hope that was coherent. If a statement sounds sarcastic then it probably is sarcasm. Peacey.

  29. #329
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by CruisinBig
    [B

    Second, you can bet your ass that it is some illegal immigrant filling out the orders. They are America's source of cheap labor. But of course, illegal immigrants are inferior human beings (are they even human beings?),

    They are human just like everybody else. Just because they have to strugle to survive doesnt mean you can **** on them. What makes you the "Supreme Being"? Ass Clown
    Dito is like pussy. Either you love it or you're gay.

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  30. #330
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    Originally posted by CruisinBig
    Second, you can bet your ass that it is some illegal immigrant filling out the orders. They are America's source of cheap labor. But of course, illegal immigrants are inferior human beings (are they even human beings?), and therefore would frequently botch such complicated things as putting different amounts of powder in a bag. They probably didn't even have any job training.
    And what makes them inferior? Just because they were born poor? or is it because they had to work since they were children and in order to eat?

    They way I look at it, they could be out there stealing, robbing, selling drugs. but instead of doing that they work very hard to earn very little money.

    Your comments have no place in this forum

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