Seriously guys, this cardio nonsense has to end!

[W8isGR8]

Hmm. Not sure I follow your reasoning there. Is that purely for the sake of doing both just so you don't have to choose one or the other, or do you have some specific anatomical reasoning behind having both? Sorry about the confusion, but I just don't understand. =/

Allright, here goes nothing.

*Adipose tissue is innervated by the sympathetic nervous system. When it discharges, fat gets sent to the blood stream to be burned as fuel.

*Excercise releases catecholamines(epinephrine, norepinephrine). The higher the intensity, the more is released, which is good and bad.

*Blood vessels have alpha and beta receptors. Alpha receptors restrict blood flow(vasoconstriction), while beta receptors open them up(vasodialation).

Here's how it all ties in

As you increase the intensity of exercise, the sympathetic nervous system discharges faster and faster(about once per second at low-moderate intensities). This causes fat to be released. At the same time rising levels in catecholamines interact with beta receptors, causing blood vessels to dialate, allowing for a free flow of fat into the bloodstream for fuel. (this is why ephedra is such an effective fat burner, as it's a beta 2 adrenergic stimulant)

However, once you pass a certian intensity, catecholamine levels are so high they trigger alpha receptors to shut off blood flow to/from the adipose tissue. So now the sympathetic nervous system is discharging @ 3 times a second, but there's nowhere for the fat to go.

Once the intensity levels are lowered, there is a huge rush of fat into the bloodstream, allowing for greater fat burning. Hence the 10 mins. of high intensity first. This also serves a duel purpose, as that is the recommended amount to increase mitochondrial density.

In theory, HIIT would work very well, the problem lies in the rest intervals being too short, and the entire duration being to short.

[KrushR]

So now all you have to do is patent your approach, put it in a book and make a meeeelion dollars.

[img]http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/nano****e/dr_evil/drevil_finger_one_million_dollars01_s.jpg[/img]

I'll do the cover design, editing and marketing, so we both can make a meeeelion dollars. I'm serious. What you're saying makes perfect sense, so I'm going to give it a shot starting next week.

[Tsumaru]

Despite a few big words which flew over my head (I'll understand this one day, I swear it!), I actually see what you're saying now. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up. =D

[uber_buff]

whats this cardio stuff you speak of lol

[AnaerobicAndrew]

The best time for cardio is...NEVER!! ;-)

[getgot211]

Images aren't allowed, otherwise Colin Powell would make an appearance.

Several of those articles stated (not the scientific crap that I don't really understand, the logs and articles) that some exercise > no exercise, and that there are varying levels of cardio. Nothing more. Is that what you are trying to prove? We're missing the point here. Try throwing an explanation in with that link next time.

by all means throw in all the cute pics you need... explanation was not needed, the link was intended for those who care to take the time to read. if you write something off becaue it is scientific thats your choice, though none were overly complicated. the exrn.net link was pretty straight forward comparing SS to HIIT, Alwyn's was as well as he is a big proponent of interval training(though not always technically HIIT), same for CT.

http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=3&a=3

Add Fuel to the Fire...On non-lifting days, we highly recommended that you perform high-intensity interval training (HIIT) in place of the resistance training. The fact that HIIT is most heavily reliant on muscle glycogen during exercise does not mean that it is an inefficient method of exercise for fat loss. On the contrary, HIIT is a much more efficient means of achieving fat loss than steady-state aerobics. Otherwise, you wouldn't see so many non-spandex deserving aerobics instructors with greater than 30% body fat! When the post-exercise period is factored in and excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) is taken into account, the total amount of fat and calories burned as a result of the HIIT is actually greater than with its lower intensity counterparts (20-22). And, let's not forget that in given the right work: rest ratio, you'll almost always perform more total work with HIIT than steady-state aerobics. Tremblay et al. found that subjects who performed a HIIT program showed a ninefold greater decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds relative to a group of subjects that performed an endurance training program (23). Additionally, interval training is considered to be superior to steady-state, submaximal cardiovascular activity in improving VO2max (24). We know what you're thinking: "Why should I worry about VO2max? I lift weights; VO2max is only important for spandex-clad cyclists!" Well, even if being a more functional lifter (or athlete, if that's your cup o' tea) isn't reason enough to value VO2max improvements, you will still be interested to know that a greater VO2max value has been associated with increased thermic effect of food (25). That's right - jack up the VO2max, and the dozen Krispy Kremes that "accidentally" vanish in your presence are less likely to be stored as body fat.

As if all these benefits weren't enough, let's consider the explosive nature of HIIT work. Typically, your ball-busting work periods are in the 10-30 second range, a timeframe that closely approximates the duration of most strength training sets. In other words, you'll be training the same energy systems (ATP-PC and fast glycolysis) as in strength training (13). And, less scientifically, picture yourself digging deep to propel yourself forward during a sprint. Now, think of the last time your hip and knee extensors kicked in as fired out of "the hole" during a set of squats. You can bet that training your explosiveness will carry over to such performances. Finally, when you notice how insanely sore your hams, glutes, quads, calves, obliques, and lower back are after your first sprinting session, you'll be convinced of how effective HIIT can be in promoting muscle growth.

Cressey seems pretty convinced as well. the fact is HIIT is proven, many top trainers and athletes use it(and BB's).

It's just lazy people selling another program, like HIT. I'd love to believe it only takes 20 minutes a week of working out to get in shape, really. The truth is, it doesn't.

The whole EPOC thing is crap, with HIIT proven to burn a negligible 33 cals more post exercise. And while the same amount of calories are burned in a shorter amount of time, the majority (>80%) are not coming from fat calories.

In fact, the higher the intensity, the more quickly the sympathetic nervous system fires off. Which causes Alpha receptors in the adipose tissue blood vessels to constrict, stoping fat from entering the bloodstream to be used for fuel.

saying HIIT is a lazy excuse for cardio is laughable at best...especially coming from someone to lazy to make their diet work for them...yeah, cardio is COMPLETELY unnecessary for body recomposition purposes. and since the topic of getting in shape came up HIIT is FAR more effective for that, this is well proven, EC brings it up in the above article as well, look into the Tabata method if you need more evidence, this is also similar (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...28&query_hl=35) the method you brought up is by no means new, in any way...in fact, i remember reading an article in men's health years ago outling pretty much that, something like 20mins of higher followed by 30 of low. though they had references and studies of course, you have made many blanket statements but have yet to substantiate even 1.

oh and since fasted came up...
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=835725
and i am not a fan of fasted at all, and have never done it. but a fasted session with maybe some BCAA's and an E/C stack would burn a good amount of fat

as Gr8 as W8 may be, forgive me for siding with the likes of CT, Cosgrove, Cressey, and others.

[W8isGR8]

by all means throw in all the cute pics you need... explanation was not needed, the link was intended for those who care to take the time to read. if you write something off becaue it is scientific thats your choice, though none were overly complicated. the exrn.net link was pretty straight forward comparing SS to HIIT, Alwyn's was as well as he is a big proponent of interval training(though not always technically HIIT), same for CT.

http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=3&a=3

Add Fuel to the Fire...On non-lifting days, we highly recommended that you perform high-intensity interval training (HIIT) in place of the resistance training. The fact that HIIT is most heavily reliant on muscle glycogen during exercise does not mean that it is an inefficient method of exercise for fat loss. On the contrary, HIIT is a much more efficient means of achieving fat loss than steady-state aerobics. Otherwise, you wouldn't see so many non-spandex deserving aerobics instructors with greater than 30% body fat! When the post-exercise period is factored in and excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) is taken into account, the total amount of fat and calories burned as a result of the HIIT is actually greater than with its lower intensity counterparts (20-22). And, let's not forget that in given the right work: rest ratio, you'll almost always perform more total work with HIIT than steady-state aerobics. Tremblay et al. found that subjects who performed a HIIT program showed a ninefold greater decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds relative to a group of subjects that performed an endurance training program (23). Additionally, interval training is considered to be superior to steady-state, submaximal cardiovascular activity in improving VO2max (24). We know what you're thinking: "Why should I worry about VO2max? I lift weights; VO2max is only important for spandex-clad cyclists!" Well, even if being a more functional lifter (or athlete, if that's your cup o' tea) isn't reason enough to value VO2max improvements, you will still be interested to know that a greater VO2max value has been associated with increased thermic effect of food (25). That's right - jack up the VO2max, and the dozen Krispy Kremes that "accidentally" vanish in your presence are less likely to be stored as body fat.

As if all these benefits weren't enough, let's consider the explosive nature of HIIT work. Typically, your ball-busting work periods are in the 10-30 second range, a timeframe that closely approximates the duration of most strength training sets. In other words, you'll be training the same energy systems (ATP-PC and fast glycolysis) as in strength training (13). And, less scientifically, picture yourself digging deep to propel yourself forward during a sprint. Now, think of the last time your hip and knee extensors kicked in as fired out of "the hole" during a set of squats. You can bet that training your explosiveness will carry over to such performances. Finally, when you notice how insanely sore your hams, glutes, quads, calves, obliques, and lower back are after your first sprinting session, you'll be convinced of how effective HIIT can be in promoting muscle growth.

Cressey seems pretty convinced as well. the fact is HIIT is proven, many top trainers and athletes use it(and BB's).



saying HIIT is a lazy excuse for cardio is laughable at best...especially coming from someone to lazy to make their diet work for them...yeah, cardio is COMPLETELY unnecessary for body recomposition purposes. and since the topic of getting in shape came up HIIT is FAR more effective for that, this is well proven, EC brings it up in the above article as well, look into the Tabata method if you need more evidence, this is also similar (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...28&query_hl=35) the method you brought up is by no means new, in any way...in fact, i remember reading an article in men's health years ago outling pretty much that, something like 20mins of higher followed by 30 of low. though they had references and studies of course, you have made many blanket statements but have yet to substantiate even 1.

oh and since fasted came up...
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=835725
and i am not a fan of fasted at all, and have never done it. but a fasted session with maybe some BCAA's and an E/C stack would burn a good amount of fat

as Gr8 as W8 may be, forgive me for siding with the likes of CT, Cosgrove, Cressey, and others.

I never said you couldn't do cardio with BCAA's, in fact I recommend it. I don't recommend rolling out of bed, putting on your shoes, and running for an hour. As for proof, I know that 99% of people here don't want to read through a bunch of case studies, so I did some paraphrasing. I never said this was my own brilliant idea. If you want the articles printed I can do that, or at least give the links.

[W8isGR8]

"HIIT speeds up your metabolism and keeps it revved up for some time after your workout. The bottom line is HIIT training burns a greater number of total calories than low-intensity training, and more calories burned equals more fat lost. What I'm suggesting is you forget about the "calories burned" readout on the stairstepper or Lifecycle; if you practice HIIT training, the majority of calories burned will come after your workout!’

The above statement paints an appealing picture. In reality however, the scientific evidence suggests that it is unequivocally false (Laforgia et al., 1997, Gore and Withers, 1990, Freedman-Akabas, 1985). First, HIIT training is normally purported to take less time than lower intensity sessions. However, to control variables Laforgia et al. (1997) examined the effect of intensity on EPOC, while matching total work performed in each session. Participants consisted of eight male middle distance runners, who performed 30 minutes of 70 % V02 max treadmill running in condition one, and interval training in condition two. Interval training consisted of 20, one minute sprints at 105 % of V02 max. The session lasted 60 minutes, as sprints were interspersed with 2 minute intervals in which participants performed active recovery. It was found that the 70 % V02 max condition metabolized 31 extra calories over the entire nine hours following exercise, while the high intensity condition metabolized 64 extra calories as extrapolated by EPOC. This equates to a negligible 33 extra calories for the high intensity condition. Laforgia et al. (1997) suggests that a comparison of the excess calories above moderate intensity exercise ‘for the interval treatment is of little physiological significance to the energy balance of athletes because this amount of energy is equivalent to the kilojoules in only 75 ml of orange juice (1/3rd cup).’ They further conclude that ‘the major contribution of both treatments to weight loss was via the energy expended during the actual exercise. The excess post exercise energy expenditure is therefore of negligible physiological significance as far as weight loss is concerned.’ "

[W8isGR8]

"In another study, Gore et al. (1990) examined the effect of both intensity and duration on EPOC. Participants consisted of nine males with an average of 21 years of age. Participants exercised at 30 %, 50 %, and 70 % V02 max, each at 20, 50, and 80 minute durations. The effect of duration on exercise found no significant difference in the 30 % V02 max condition, whose 8 hour EPOC was a little over 1 liter of 02, amounting to approximately 5-6 extra calories metabolized. The effect of duration on the 50 % V02 max condition found that EPOC went from approximately 3 liters at 20 minutes, to 5 liters at 50 minutes, and finally to 6 liters at 80 minutes of duration. The effect of duration on the 70% V02 max condition found that EPOC went from 6, to 10, and finally 14.6 liters of 02 consumed for 20, 50, and 80 minute durations. As a reference the 14.6 liters of 02 consumed in excess in the 70 % V02 max, 80 minute duration condition was approximately 70 extra calories of energy expended or approximately 40 extra calories than the 50 minute condition at 50 minutes duration. While the data from this study clearly shows a positive relationship between intensity and duration on EPOC, the amount of calories metabolized in excess is concluded by the authors to be ‘ of little physiological significance for weight loss…’ Further, the average amount of calories metabolized during EPOC was approximately 4 % of the total energy cost of exercise, which addresses the statement that , ‘the majority of calories burned will come after your workout( Phillips)!"

[jocularric]

The best time for cardio is...NEVER!! ;-)

LOL That's what the evil fat cells are saying.

[W8isGR8]

Fast Acting Hormones and their Role in Fuel use during Exercise
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/Nutri...oningpart1.php

Slow Acting Hormones and their Role in Fuel use during Exercise
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/Nutri...oningpart2.php

Analysis of Nutrient use during Low, Moderate, and High Intensity Exercise
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/Nutri...oningpart3.php

Direct Comparisons of Fuel use during Low, Moderate, and High Intensity Exercises
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/Nutri...oningpart4.php

[W8isGR8]

" From the above findings it should be noted that total fat oxidation is greatest at moderate intensity, while total glycogen depletion is greatest at high intensity exercise. Fat utilized from adipose tissue was greatest in the low intensity condition, while glycogen depletion was lowest at this intensity. This suggests, that based on lipid oxidation, that 65 % V02 max is optimal, followed by low intensity exercise. Further, the lower the intensity, the greater the sparing effect on glycogen stores will be.

Romijn’s et al. (1993) findings on maximal fat oxidation occurring when training within 60% of VO2 max has been supported by numerous studies. Achten et al. (2002) had eighteen moderately trained cyclists perform a graded exercise test to exhaustion, with 5-minute stages and 35-weight increments. To elaborate, a graded exercise test is when an athlete progressively increases intensity after each time steady state is reached, usually until complete exhaustion. It was found that maximum fat oxidation occurred at 64% VO2 max, +/- 4%. Conversely, the contribution of fat oxidation to energy expenditure became negligible above 89%. In another study fifty-five male subjects performed another graded exercise test on a cycle ergometer (Achten and Jeukendrup, 2003). Results demonstrated that maximum fat oxidation was reached at 63% VO2 max. Thus, evidence clearly suggests that training within 60% of your VO2 max is optimal for fat oxidation.

[W8isGR8]

Today another historical battle exists. Across countries exercise participants purport the superiority of high intensity interval training (HIIT) which is short over low to moderate intensity long duration training. One of the purposes of this article is to analyze the evidence for this claim and allow the reader to conclude from there. Shawn Phillips, one of the leading spokesman for HIIT stated that

‘You knew deep down, anyhow, that busting your butt burned off more fat than an exercise that allowed you to read at the same time, didn't you? Well, research shows our instincts were right…

HIIT speeds up your metabolism and keeps it revved up for some time after your workout. The bottom line is HIIT training burns a greater number of total calories than low-intensity training, and more calories burned equals more fat lost. What I'm suggesting is you forget about the "calories burned" readout on the stairstepper or Lifecycle; if you practice HIIT training, the majority of calories burned will come after your workout!’

The above statement paints an appealing picture. In reality however, the scientific evidence suggests that it is unequivocally false (Laforgia et al., 1997, Gore and Withers, 1990, Freedman-Akabas, 1985). First, HIIT training is normally purported to take less time than lower intensity sessions. However, to control variables Laforgia et al. (1997) examined the effect of intensity on EPOC, while matching total work performed in each session. Participants consisted of eight male middle distance runners, who performed 30 minutes of 70 % V02 max treadmill running in condition one, and interval training in condition two. Interval training consisted of 20, one minute sprints at 105 % of V02 max. The session lasted 60 minutes, as sprints were interspersed with 2 minute intervals in which participants performed active recovery. It was found that the 70 % V02 max condition metabolized 31 extra calories over the entire nine hours following exercise, while the high intensity condition metabolized 64 extra calories as extrapolated by EPOC. This equates to a negligible 33 extra calories for the high intensity condition. Laforgia et al. (1997) suggests that a comparison of the excess calories above moderate intensity exercise ‘for the interval treatment is of little physiological significance to the energy balance of athletes because this amount of energy is equivalent to the kilojoules in only 75 ml of orange juice (1/3rd cup).’ They further conclude that ‘the major contribution of both treatments to weight loss was via the energy expended during the actual exercise. The excess post exercise energy expenditure is therefore of negligible physiological significance as far as weight loss is concerned.’

In another study, Gore et al. (1990) examined the effect of both intensity and duration on EPOC. Participants consisted of nine males with an average of 21 years of age. Participants exercised at 30 %, 50 %, and 70 % V02 max, each at 20, 50, and 80 minute durations. The effect of duration on exercise found no significant difference in the 30 % V02 max condition, whose 8 hour EPOC was a little over 1 liter of 02, amounting to approximately 5-6 extra calories metabolized. The effect of duration on the 50 % V02 max condition found that EPOC went from approximately 3 liters at 20 minutes, to 5 liters at 50 minutes, and finally to 6 liters at 80 minutes of duration. The effect of duration on the 70% V02 max condition found that EPOC went from 6, to 10, and finally 14.6 liters of 02 consumed for 20, 50, and 80 minute durations. As a reference the 14.6 liters of 02 consumed in excess in the 70 % V02 max, 80 minute duration condition was approximately 70 extra calories of energy expended or approximately 40 extra calories than the 50 minute condition at 50 minutes duration. While the data from this study clearly shows a positive relationship between intensity and duration on EPOC, the amount of calories metabolized in excess is concluded by the authors to be ‘ of little physiological significance for weight loss…’ Further, the average amount of calories metabolized during EPOC was approximately 4 % of the total energy cost of exercise, which addresses the statement that , ‘the majority of calories burned will come after your workout( Phillips)!

[W8isGR8]

"During low intensity exercise, epinephrine levels nearly double, which again acts on the high concentration of beta two receptors in skeletal muscle (Romijn et al. 1993) . Further, sympathetic nervous system (SA) activity increases in its innervation of adipose tissue. Sympathetic nerves discharge approximately once per second during low intensity training on adipose tissue, which provides a high lipolytic effect on adipose, yet it is not enough to cause vasoconstriction of the arteries to these regions (Fredholm and Rosell 1967, 1968). Therefore TGs are catalyzed to free fatty acids and glycerol at a higher rate, without inhibition of blood flow. This provides for a greater concentration of plasma TGs."

"During high intensity exercise, the sympathetic nerve impulses at this time rise to discharge at a rate of 3 times per second on adipose tissue (Fredholm and Rosell, 1967, 1968)! As a consequence, lipolysis is increased drastically in this tissue. However, the intense rate of discharge also has the effect of activating alpha receptors on arterioles and venules associated with adipose, which shunts blood away from this region


So while high intensity exercise actually increases lypolisis, it also prevents fat from being used for fuel.

"When intensity is lowered sympathetic tone lowers proportionally, and a high rise in plasma fatty acids is seen (Romijn et al., 1993.) For this reason, Wilson (2004) suggested that a combination of high intensity and low intensity training protocols may be a highly effective technique for fat metabolism"

So doing, say, 5-10 minutes of high intensity work, followed by a longer low intensity period, would be optimal.

[MrSinister]

so very very very very VERY overanalysed.

[getgot211]

so very very very very VERY overanalysed.

perhaps. but we need something to do right? and reading about cardio is more entertaining than DOing cardio

but yeah easy answer is mix it up...like everything else

[MrSinister]

perhaps. but we need something to do right? and reading about cardio is more entertaining than DOing cardio

but yeah easy answer is mix it up...like everything else

i hear u there, a simple little 20 minute cardio session goes so slow its spirit killing

[lucious]

The bottom line:

There is a maximum amount of adipose tissue the body can oxidise each week. I don't care how you pull this off, be it through nighttime jogs, HIIT at 5am when you wake, walking on a treadmill at the gym, or sprinting through the park in a zipped up cucumber suit with heavy flippers screaming at pigeons, as long as you get to this threshold you're burning as much fat as you possibly can. The only argument here is what is least catabolic.Case closed.

[W8isGR8]

so very very very very VERY overanalysed.

Shut up fatty

[W8isGR8]

sprinting through the park in a zipped up cucumber suit with heavy flippers screaming at pigeons

I'd forgotten about that one. Give me a minute to find the study results on that one.................

[Jotun]

So doing, say, 5-10 minutes of high intensity work, followed by a longer low intensity period, would be optimal.

This is exactly what Lyle McDonald recommends, complemented by a healthy dose of Yohimbine for those pesky receptors.
Basically, 5 minutes of very high intensity exercise to mobilize fatty acids followed by a brief recovery period, then 30 minutes or so of low intensity exercise to use those fatty acids as fuel.

[Watch Me!]

This is a really great thread, and I think I'm going to try out cardio this way. I have a question though - what is considered "low intensity"?
What % of VO2max would that be? (or what % MHR for the lower-tech)
I would hate to go too low or too high.

[W8isGR8]

This is a really great thread, and I think I'm going to try out cardio this way. I have a question though - what is considered "low intensity"?
What % of VO2max would that be? (or what % MHR for the lower-tech)
I would hate to go too low or too high.

Technically, it's less than 25% VO2 max, wich would pretty much be just walking around for a long time.

[W8isGR8]

This is exactly what Lyle McDonald recommends, complemented by a healthy dose of Yohimbine for those pesky receptors.
Basically, 5 minutes of very high intensity exercise to mobilize fatty acids followed by a brief recovery period, then 30 minutes or so of low intensity exercise to use those fatty acids as fuel.

^^^^^^^^^^^^



My pre-contest plan is to run to the end of my street and back(1.8 miles), and then hop on my treadmill at a 12 degree incline and walk fast for about 30-45 mins.

[bigpump23]

This thread amazes me

[artaxerxes]

If I stop breathing oxygen, it won't "force" my body to use CO2, I'll just die.
If my heart stops beating, it won't "force" my liver to pump the blood.

The human body has certian parts that do certian jobs, you can't change that. Period.

I hate you all.

Not true,

ever heard of anaerobic exerices??
When an oxygen debt builds up in your muscles, cellular respiration cannot supply enough energy and the cell is forced into lacetic acid fermentation, which does not require oxygen....so your analogies are flawed at best.

[Bogaerts]

I have only one comment...........

With all the current scientific knowledge at hand, all the data available, the best supplements ever, the finest equipment ever made, the most accessible gyms and means to workout/exercise, all the right foods available, instant information..........and still the most out of shape and fattest country around....

I wonder how they made it 50 years ago with none of this stuff available

* Pictures Arndold sifting through data and charts on how fat is burned and if it should be at a certain time or not.....should he really have those post workout carbs or not....did he do too many sets of deads? * I think not....

[J.L.C.]

This thread amazes me

Replying to a 4 month old thread amazes me.

[pali012]

Replying to a 4 month old thread amazes me.

At least he used the search engine

[T~Bur]

Not true,

ever heard of anaerobic exerices??
When an oxygen debt builds up in your muscles, cellular respiration cannot supply enough energy and the cell is forced into lacetic acid fermentation, which does not require oxygen....so your analogies are flawed at best.

Your body isn't forced to use CO2 though, which is the point he was trying to make.

All hail W8isGR8