I often wonder how certain supplements get their reputation. Nobody wants to think that the resuts they get from any paricular product or substance is placebo. Yet, in the 80's millions of people swore Hot Stuff worked wonders. In the 90's everyone thought that Met Rx was the closest thing to steroids. So what happened? Why were the reports so impressive at one time and now these supplements are regarded as nothing more than a so so protein drink. Did these supplements have a secret ingredient in them? Nah. That's just an urband legend. The answer: Placebo. The same goes for HMB, Gabba Orzonal, Androsteine and a host of other crap that millions of people enthusiasticlly endorsed. Sometimes people WANT something to work so much that the hope and belief is strong enough to cause a physical reaction. The reaction is very real -- therefore the conviction is confirmed. Never try to tell someone the gains they experienced aren't real.
Well, we may laugh at a past generation who were fooled by the bogus supps of the day, but it's no different now. But what's so ironic, is when a particular substance does exactly the opposite of what people think it does, and the reaction is STILL what they WANT it to be. One example is Fenugreek.
Fenugreek is a phytoestrogen which is often recommend to nursing mothers to increase milk supply. Why? Because it increases prolacton. Now, anyone with any knowledge of how hormones work knows that prolactin is the # 1 libido killer. Yet, I see people coming on this board, claiming that fenugreek sent their libido through the roof. How can that happen? Chances are, they didn't take enough to do any real damage, and the rest is all wishful thinking. Fenugreek can not increase testosterone and most likely reduces it. Yet, it's a component in some T boosters. Just as we laugh at the old timers for using brewers yeast and boron, in ten years, people will be laughing that budding bodybuilders from 2005 actually tried to increase testosterone with Fenugreek.
There are so many other substances that are used in supplements that are actually detremental to muscle gains -- vitex, gugglesterones, saw palmetto, forskolin -- they all suck and should not be taken if you value your health. There are many others I'd like to discuss in depth in the future. Until then, be careful out there.
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12-11-2005, 06:35 AM #1
Want Bigger Boobs? Use Fenugreek!
Last edited by HORMONEMAN; 12-11-2005 at 07:44 AM.
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12-11-2005, 06:43 AM #2
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12-11-2005, 06:43 AM #3
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12-11-2005, 06:48 AM #4
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12-11-2005, 06:52 AM #5
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12-11-2005, 06:54 AM #6Originally Posted by pu12en12g.
Protein Factory:THE SMART CHOICE FOR SERIOUS SUPPLEMENTS. Because Paying Too Much Is Just Dumb.
The Most Popular Products:
UNLEASHED: The Superior Testosterone Booster
DX7: The Worlds Most Potent Multi
ZIP! The Non-"Jittery" Fat Burner
POST CYCLE: What You Should Be On...When You're Off.
Check BB.com Store for the best prices.
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12-11-2005, 06:59 AM #7
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12-11-2005, 07:04 AM #8The principal furostanol saponin in Fenugreek is diosgenin. Diosgenin has been proven to have various effects on cholesterol metabolism, specifically in lowering LDL plasma cholesterol levels. Other furostanols in fenugreek include gitogenin, tigogenin, smilagenin, sarsasaponin, etc.
In light of the effect which furostanol saponins exert on appetite stimulation and hormone release, Fenusterols™ may be potentially useful in Sports Nutrition. Fenugreek seeds are traditionally used in appetite stimulation the resulting increase in food intake ultimately triggers anabolism. Animal model studies have revealed that the furostanol saponin fraction is responsible for the anabolic effects of fenugreek seeds.
In addition, the furostanol class of plant steroids have pronounced immunostimulating and luteinizing hormone (LH) releasing properties. LH in turn signals the pituitary gland to produce more testosterone and high testosterone levels have been correlated with improved athletic performance. The mechanism of hormone releasing action of furostanols is linked to the conversion of cholesterol into active hormones, resulting in the simultaneous reduction of plasma cholesterol levels.progesterone is a precursor (building block) for most other hormones
important for male health including testosterone, DHEA and cortisol, and yes, even the small amount of estradiol men have. In men, progesterone plays an important role in adrenal gland health, as well as being an important consideration for the health of other hormones.
This will get the discussion started until the experts chime inFree agent
Research and Development Consultant
11+ Years Experience
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12-11-2005, 07:11 AM #9
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12-11-2005, 07:12 AM #10
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12-11-2005, 07:12 AM #11
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12-11-2005, 07:13 AM #12
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12-11-2005, 07:13 AM #13
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12-11-2005, 07:18 AM #14Originally Posted by pu12en12g
That first quote is an assumption with no mention of T elevation. As for lowering cholesterol, that's what estrogens do. And yes, LH releases T, but it also releases e.
Of course progesterone is necessary, but have you ever used Deca? If not, ask anyone who has. It raises prog and it promptly kills your dick. If anything, that reference supports my case..
Protein Factory:THE SMART CHOICE FOR SERIOUS SUPPLEMENTS. Because Paying Too Much Is Just Dumb.
The Most Popular Products:
UNLEASHED: The Superior Testosterone Booster
DX7: The Worlds Most Potent Multi
ZIP! The Non-"Jittery" Fat Burner
POST CYCLE: What You Should Be On...When You're Off.
Check BB.com Store for the best prices.
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12-11-2005, 07:26 AM #15
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12-11-2005, 07:27 AM #16
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12-11-2005, 07:31 AM #17
For the record, it should be noted that the value of many herbal "test boosters" (including fenugreek) is to "normalize" testosterone / hormone values, not a 500% increase above baseline... so it may appear that I'm defending Fenugreek, but I'm actually just here to clarify.
Free agent
Research and Development Consultant
11+ Years Experience
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12-11-2005, 07:38 AM #18
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12-11-2005, 07:41 AM #19
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12-11-2005, 07:48 AM #20Originally Posted by deserusan
pu12, Yes, prolactIn. Typo. Thank you..
Protein Factory:THE SMART CHOICE FOR SERIOUS SUPPLEMENTS. Because Paying Too Much Is Just Dumb.
The Most Popular Products:
UNLEASHED: The Superior Testosterone Booster
DX7: The Worlds Most Potent Multi
ZIP! The Non-"Jittery" Fat Burner
POST CYCLE: What You Should Be On...When You're Off.
Check BB.com Store for the best prices.
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12-11-2005, 08:03 AM #21
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12-11-2005, 08:05 AM #22
i just use it so ill smell like a bottle of aunt jemima
Suppose Nancy sees me coming out of the shower and decides to come on to me. I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. She takes one look at me and goes " Oh my god, I've had the old bull now I want the young calf" and grabs me by the weiner. -- Dale Doback
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12-11-2005, 08:09 AM #23
Just some interesting trivia:
In healthy humans, the "rate-limiting" step in testosterone biosynthesis is the conversion of cholesterol into a hormone called pregnenolone. This hormone is then first converted to either DHEA or progesterone before being further degraded in a stepwise fashion to testosterone. Schematically, the two possible pathways look like this: (Enzymes have been omitted for clarity.)
Cholesterol » pregnenolone » progesterone » androstenedione» T
Cholesterol » pregnenolone » DHEA » androstenediol » TMost people think of progesterone as a “female hormone.” Yet men normally produce progesterone as well, in both their adrenal and testicular tissue.8 Unfortunately, male progesterone levels drop with aging, just as do male testosterone levels.4 Severe, prolonged stress also depletes progesterone, since the “state-of-siege” stress hormone cortisol is made from progesterone, as are testosterone, estrogen, aldosterone and other steroid hormones.8
And as researcher Ray Peat emphasizes, one of the most important roles for progesterone is to oppose the many toxic effects of excess estrogen.9 Progesterone expert Dr. John Lee noted multiple roles for progesterone in antagonizing estrogen and promoting prostate health.
Progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT.4 DHT is a weaker androgen than testosterone, and thus lowers the androgen/estrogen ratio in favor of estrogen. In addition, DHT is a far more potent stimulant of prostate cell growth than testosterone.4 Both testosterone and progesterone stimulate the activity of a protective gene called “p53.”4 The products of this gene activation are anti-cancer, and promote healthy apoptosis.10 Apoptosis is a “programmed cell suicide” that plays a key role in preventing cellular overgrowth (e.g., BPH) and cancer.10 Estrogen, on the other hand, activates a gene called “bcl2.”4 Bcl2 products inhibit healthy apoptosis.10
Progesterone may even help with prostate cancer. V. Petrow et al reported results of their study with rats and prostate cancer in 1984. “Growth of the Dunning R 3327-H prostatic adenocarcinoma, implanted in the rat, is inhibited by 6-methylene progesterone. This compound is a potent inhibitor of rat prostatic 5-alpha-reductase [as is progesterone; 5-alpha-reductase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT] and in-vivo produced marked involution [shrinkage] of the prostate. Thus, this tumor requires dihydrotestosterone and not testosterone for growth.”11 Andrews and colleagues also note: “Another steroid hormone that interacts with the androgen receptor in LNCaP [prostate cancer] cells (progesterone) also promotes apoptosis of these cells.”12Last edited by pu12en12g; 12-11-2005 at 08:12 AM.
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12-11-2005, 08:11 AM #24
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12-11-2005, 08:17 AM #25
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12-11-2005, 08:18 AM #26
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12-11-2005, 08:20 AM #28
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12-11-2005, 08:23 AM #29
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12-11-2005, 08:23 AM #30
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