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  1. #1
    Registered User HORMONEMAN's Avatar
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    Want Bigger Boobs? Use Fenugreek!

    I often wonder how certain supplements get their reputation. Nobody wants to think that the resuts they get from any paricular product or substance is placebo. Yet, in the 80's millions of people swore Hot Stuff worked wonders. In the 90's everyone thought that Met Rx was the closest thing to steroids. So what happened? Why were the reports so impressive at one time and now these supplements are regarded as nothing more than a so so protein drink. Did these supplements have a secret ingredient in them? Nah. That's just an urband legend. The answer: Placebo. The same goes for HMB, Gabba Orzonal, Androsteine and a host of other crap that millions of people enthusiasticlly endorsed. Sometimes people WANT something to work so much that the hope and belief is strong enough to cause a physical reaction. The reaction is very real -- therefore the conviction is confirmed. Never try to tell someone the gains they experienced aren't real.

    Well, we may laugh at a past generation who were fooled by the bogus supps of the day, but it's no different now. But what's so ironic, is when a particular substance does exactly the opposite of what people think it does, and the reaction is STILL what they WANT it to be. One example is Fenugreek.

    Fenugreek is a phytoestrogen which is often recommend to nursing mothers to increase milk supply. Why? Because it increases prolacton. Now, anyone with any knowledge of how hormones work knows that prolactin is the # 1 libido killer. Yet, I see people coming on this board, claiming that fenugreek sent their libido through the roof. How can that happen? Chances are, they didn't take enough to do any real damage, and the rest is all wishful thinking. Fenugreek can not increase testosterone and most likely reduces it. Yet, it's a component in some T boosters. Just as we laugh at the old timers for using brewers yeast and boron, in ten years, people will be laughing that budding bodybuilders from 2005 actually tried to increase testosterone with Fenugreek.

    There are so many other substances that are used in supplements that are actually detremental to muscle gains -- vitex, gugglesterones, saw palmetto, forskolin -- they all suck and should not be taken if you value your health. There are many others I'd like to discuss in depth in the future. Until then, be careful out there.
    Last edited by HORMONEMAN; 12-11-2005 at 07:44 AM.
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  2. #2
    Hero. Psycho. Insomniac. Skigazzi's Avatar
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    FWIW - Fenugreek is usually the main ingredient in herbal breast enhancers for women.
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  3. #3
    Registered User Reem's Avatar
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    Well does the fact that fenugreek is a phytoestrogen mean it's bad per se?
    Clomid is a weak estrogen itself...now is clomid not effective?
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  4. #4
    experiment in progress Jhendi82's Avatar
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    Saw Palmetto works fine in low does for prostate protection, while on a steroid or PH.
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    Cutting and trying to maintain lean mass

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  5. #5
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Diosgenin
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  6. #6
    Registered User HORMONEMAN's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    I have a feeling you are about to get schooled
    Bring it on. Class is now in session.
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  7. #7
    Genetically Motivated. Adamb83's Avatar
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    Does this mean it would not be an effective PCT supplement?
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  8. #8
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    The principal furostanol saponin in Fenugreek is diosgenin. Diosgenin has been proven to have various effects on cholesterol metabolism, specifically in lowering LDL plasma cholesterol levels. Other furostanols in fenugreek include gitogenin, tigogenin, smilagenin, sarsasaponin, etc.

    In light of the effect which furostanol saponins exert on appetite stimulation and hormone release, Fenusterols™ may be potentially useful in Sports Nutrition. Fenugreek seeds are traditionally used in appetite stimulation the resulting increase in food intake ultimately triggers anabolism. Animal model studies have revealed that the furostanol saponin fraction is responsible for the anabolic effects of fenugreek seeds.

    In addition, the furostanol class of plant steroids have pronounced immunostimulating and luteinizing hormone (LH) releasing properties. LH in turn signals the pituitary gland to produce more testosterone and high testosterone levels have been correlated with improved athletic performance. The mechanism of hormone releasing action of furostanols is linked to the conversion of cholesterol into active hormones, resulting in the simultaneous reduction of plasma cholesterol levels.
    progesterone is a precursor (building block) for most other hormones
    important for male health including testosterone, DHEA and cortisol, and yes, even the small amount of estradiol men have. In men, progesterone plays an important role in adrenal gland health, as well as being an important consideration for the health of other hormones.
    ...

    This will get the discussion started until the experts chime in
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  9. #9
    Registered User Human Torch's Avatar
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    I use it to dampen side's such as headache's and high bp during and after a cycle of p\s.Never heard of it being a test booster.
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  10. #10
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    Placebo. The same goes for HMB
    I might grab some popcorn for this one
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    I often wonder how certain supplements get their reputation. Nobody wants to think that the resuts they get from any paricular product or substance is placebo. Yet, in the 80's millions of people swore Hot Stuff worked wonders. In the 90's everyone thought that Met Rx was the closest thing to steroids. So what happened? Why were the reports so impressive at one time and now these supplements are regarded as nothing more than a so so protein drink. Did these supplements have a secret ingredient in them? Nah. That's just an urband legend. The answer: Placebo. The same goes for HMB, Gabba Orzonal, Androsteine and a host of other crap that millions of people enthusiasticlly endorsed. Sometimes people WANT something to work so much that the hope and belief is strong enough to cause a physical reaction. The reaction is very real -- therefore the conviction is confirmed. Never try to tell someone the gains they experienced aren't real.

    Well, we may laugh at a past generation who were fooled by the bogus supps of the day, but it's no different now. But what's so ironic, is when a particular substance does exactly the opposite of what people think it does, and the reaction is STILL what they WANT it to be. One example is Fenugreek.

    Fenugreek is a phytoestrogen which is often recommend to nursing mothers to increase milk supply. Why? Because it increases prolacton. Now, anyone with any knowledge of how hormones work knows that prolacton is the # 1 libido killer. Yet, I see people coming on this board, claiming that fenugreek sent their libido through the roof. How can that happen? Chances are, they didn't take enough to do any real damage, and the rest is all wishful thinking. Fenugreek can not increase testosterone and most likely reduces it. Yet, it's a component in some T boosters. Just as we laugh at the old timers for using brewers yeast and boron, in ten years, people will be laughing that budding bodybuilders from 2005 actually tried to increase testosterone with Fenugreek.

    There are so many other substances that are used in supplements that are actually detremental to muscle gains -- vitex, gugglesterones, saw palmetto, forskolin -- they all suck and should not be taken if you value your health. There are many others I'd like to discuss in depth in the future. Until then, be careful out there.


    Of all the products listed, there have been legitate concerns rased. Nothing conclusive. I think there should be no reason to use these products when there are much better options out there that have virtually no health concerts, like the sesamin products.
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  12. #12
    Run Baby Run Seroph4x's Avatar
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    Cool

    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    I might grab some popcorn for this one
    rofl

    should i be negging anyone?
    Train hard. No pain, no gain!
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  13. #13
    MET-Rx Team Sports MCWTRAINER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    I might grab some popcorn for this one
    Yea, this should be good...

    *Sits back with an RTD and Rivets*
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  14. #14
    Registered User HORMONEMAN's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    ...

    This will get the discussion started until the experts chime in

    That first quote is an assumption with no mention of T elevation. As for lowering cholesterol, that's what estrogens do. And yes, LH releases T, but it also releases e.

    Of course progesterone is necessary, but have you ever used Deca? If not, ask anyone who has. It raises prog and it promptly kills your dick. If anything, that reference supports my case.
    .


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  15. #15
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    Fenugreek is a phytoestrogen which is often recommend to nursing mothers to increase milk supply. Why? Because it increases prolacton. Now, anyone with any knowledge of how hormones work knows that prolacton is the # 1 libido killer. Yet, I see people coming on this board, claiming that fenugreek sent their libido through the roof. How can that happen?
    The first problem is that you seem to be assuming that diosgenin in men = diosgenin in women.
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  16. #16
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    Fenugreek can not increase testosterone and most likely reduces it.
    Just for clarification, would you make the same statement about DHEA ?
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  17. #17
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    For the record, it should be noted that the value of many herbal "test boosters" (including fenugreek) is to "normalize" testosterone / hormone values, not a 500% increase above baseline... so it may appear that I'm defending Fenugreek, but I'm actually just here to clarify.
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  18. #18
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    Whatever you say Uncle Rico!

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    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
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  19. #19
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    prolacton
    For the benefit of others reading the thread.. he actually means "prolactin".
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    Originally Posted by deserusan
    Whatever you say Uncle Rico!

    <img src="http://www.artisanchurch.com/e-news/uncle-rico-photo.jpg">
    I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but it's hilarious!


    pu12, Yes, prolactIn. Typo. Thank you.
    .


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    id bet you can find a anti catabloic, anabolic argument for any supplement or food in existence!
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    i just use it so ill smell like a bottle of aunt jemima
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  23. #23
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Just some interesting trivia:

    In healthy humans, the "rate-limiting" step in testosterone biosynthesis is the conversion of cholesterol into a hormone called pregnenolone. This hormone is then first converted to either DHEA or progesterone before being further degraded in a stepwise fashion to testosterone. Schematically, the two possible pathways look like this: (Enzymes have been omitted for clarity.)

    Cholesterol » pregnenolone » progesterone » androstenedione» T
    Cholesterol » pregnenolone » DHEA » androstenediol » T
    Most people think of progesterone as a “female hormone.” Yet men normally produce progesterone as well, in both their adrenal and testicular tissue.8 Unfortunately, male progesterone levels drop with aging, just as do male testosterone levels.4 Severe, prolonged stress also depletes progesterone, since the “state-of-siege” stress hormone cortisol is made from progesterone, as are testosterone, estrogen, aldosterone and other steroid hormones.8

    And as researcher Ray Peat emphasizes, one of the most important roles for progesterone is to oppose the many toxic effects of excess estrogen.9 Progesterone expert Dr. John Lee noted multiple roles for progesterone in antagonizing estrogen and promoting prostate health.

    Progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT.4 DHT is a weaker androgen than testosterone, and thus lowers the androgen/estrogen ratio in favor of estrogen. In addition, DHT is a far more potent stimulant of prostate cell growth than testosterone.4 Both testosterone and progesterone stimulate the activity of a protective gene called “p53.”4 The products of this gene activation are anti-cancer, and promote healthy apoptosis.10 Apoptosis is a “programmed cell suicide” that plays a key role in preventing cellular overgrowth (e.g., BPH) and cancer.10 Estrogen, on the other hand, activates a gene called “bcl2.”4 Bcl2 products inhibit healthy apoptosis.10

    Progesterone may even help with prostate cancer. V. Petrow et al reported results of their study with rats and prostate cancer in 1984. “Growth of the Dunning R 3327-H prostatic adenocarcinoma, implanted in the rat, is inhibited by 6-methylene progesterone. This compound is a potent inhibitor of rat prostatic 5-alpha-reductase [as is progesterone; 5-alpha-reductase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT] and in-vivo produced marked involution [shrinkage] of the prostate. Thus, this tumor requires dihydrotestosterone and not testosterone for growth.”11 Andrews and colleagues also note: “Another steroid hormone that interacts with the androgen receptor in LNCaP [prostate cancer] cells (progesterone) also promotes apoptosis of these cells.”12
    Last edited by pu12en12g; 12-11-2005 at 08:12 AM.
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  24. #24
    crunk 404gb30044's Avatar
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    interesting ---from two points of view/interpretation.
    "diet today kicked ass.. had steak and oatmeal for breakfast lol..." - Twisted Steal

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  25. #25
    My heart pumps ETHER CHUCK DIESEL's Avatar
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    ^^^ (Pu's post) yes and there is a possible to loop back to deal with between the first step and the last step............anyway this is funny to see this guy starting all these threads. I wish every supplement company CEO was like hormonoman, I would really have the industry in a cobra clutch.
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  26. #26
    SNS Rep beer20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HORMONEMAN
    There are so many other substances that are used in supplements that are actually detremental to muscle gains -- vitex, gugglesterones, saw palmetto, forskolin -- they all suck and should not be taken if you value your health. There are many others I'd like to discuss in depth in the future. Until then, be careful out there.
    you do bring up some good points,
    but i have a feeling you have some suggestions on what people should be using instead...
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  27. #27
    Registered User laz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    I have a feeling you are about to get schooled

    HAHA i love when people get all riled up.
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  28. #28
    My heart pumps ETHER CHUCK DIESEL's Avatar
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    this really should have been in the supplement science section but then again that wouldnt be good "under cover pimping" for hormonoman.
    GET DIESEL OR DIE TRYIN'

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  29. #29
    ♦♦♦ Cardio Bunny ♦♦♦ Viperspit's Avatar
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    =CHUCK DIESEL I would really have the industry in a cobra clutch.
    I'm sitting here patiently reading this thread and now I'm having Sgt. Slaughter flashbacks
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  30. #30
    SNS Rep beer20's Avatar
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    Cool

    Originally Posted by CHUCK DIESEL
    this really should have been in the supplement science section but then again that wouldnt be good "under cover pimping" for hormonoman.
    he should be a little more subtle about his pimpin though...
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