question for those familar with starr's 5x5

[604canuck]

Ive been reading that thread on elite about the single factor version and I keep wondering what do they mean by novice or new. Im only asking because I thought the routine by mark rippetoe was better suited for a new trainee, or a guy coming back in my case and starting from scratch. And starrs routine was better for an intermediate. any clarification would be awesome, cause to be honest I like the look of starrs routine.

[Madcow2]

Well - since I wrote most of that stuff at Elite I can probably clarify.

When I first started posting that stuff most of the people were BBers with a good number of years of experience. Probably a lot more than here so pretty advanced guys by a lot of bodybuilding standards. Not all of them needed a periodized program but most were at least close. Now my definition of advanced, that's elite OL and PL so nobody in BBing qualifies with today's minimalistic workloads and undeveloped training capacities so I put these guys at intermediate and then a beginner/novice program for some others. Of course, I didn't factor in raw true beginners finding that stuff and it becoming popular among BBers (a population where almost no one meets my original def of advanced).

So what to do - 3 categories - Beginner (raw true beginner), Intermediate (weekly progress but significant volume), Advanced (beginning periodization) - essentially I've chopped off the entier right tail of the spectrum but since it's mostly bodybuilders it's a lot less misleading and more appropriate, plus guys that already know all this don't exactly need my help in programming. This also serves to help out the beginner mental bogey since the guys with 6 months of Bowflex seem particularly attracted to the periodized program and everybody thinks "advanced" is better but it's really just unnecessarily slow and hard for those who don't need it.

So this is why those scales seem like they've changed, they have. Real novices found the programs (or ultra-uber true novices on my old scale )and I never really provided for them but I kind of have to and it's important as it's better to start off on the right foot than try to correct it later.

[604canuck]

So basically what your saying is that a person with a couple of years training would be an ideal candidate for the single factor program. Then after that the periodization. But until then I'll stick with rippetoes program. I gotta say i felt really good doing it today. I just have to get accustemed to the longer rest.

[Madcow2]

So basically what your saying is that a person with a couple of years training would be an ideal candidate for the single factor program. Then after that the periodization. But until then I'll stick with rippetoes program. I gotta say i felt really good doing it today. I just have to get accustemed to the longer rest.

What I'm saying is that years training doesn't really cut it. If Glenn and Ripp have you, you will likely be periodizing (sort of like the periodized 5x5) in 1-2 years just about somewhere in there you'll get to a point where linear progress doesn't work terribly well. Now obviously there's a lot of people out there that have been training for years and when put on a proper linear program do very well (i.e. look at the people posting PRs all the time in the first 4 weeks of the periodized program - that has nothing to do with periodization, fatigue or rebound - that's just decent training and likely not what they were doing before). Point being, these guys seem to get people progressing very quickly and constantly whereas most people who are into bodybuilding basically spin their wheels for years or resort to drugs to get more out of ****ty training.

I mean, no advanced lifter is out there making linear weekly progress despite some of the claims you see on this board about always adding weight or reps to your best lifts - it just doesn't work like that week to week or even in the majority of weeks. It's the simplest and most direct way to train and yeah - people figured out a long time ago that it doesn't work too well beyond a certain point.

Thinking in terms of Bulgarian lifters, I think they've said it's about 6 years to build up to the volume their lifters routinely tolerate. I don't care how many years a bodybuilder has been training, I doubt any on the planet could keep up with those guys.

This might give you a better idea of the first year or so with Glenn or Rip: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=235

This is a bit more comprehensive if you haven't read it: http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm

[604canuck]

thanks for the help madcow and the links provided they were a great help. But I had a few more questions. In the link Glenn says that the guys pyramid on mon/fri and a second excercise on wed. So that would mean I would pyramid the weights for mon/fri like 50x5 60x5 70x5 80x 100x5 and try to add a little bit each time. But what about the other lifts? Granted rows and bench would probably translate to a 2 pounds per workout, if Im lucky.

For example

mon squat bench row ~ Can I pyramid with benches and rows on mon/fri?

wed squat military press deadlift chins ~Same thing here,with the exception of squats?

fri squat bench row

Also never tried front squats before but was wondering if I opted to go with full squats on wed would a lighter load be okay. Say example how its layed out in the single factor version, 50x5 60x5 70x5 70x5 70x5?

or if I chose leg press would I ramp up aswell?

[Guns McPhearson]

On the day I pyramid squats, I do 5x5 with the same weight on bench and rows. When I pyramid bench and row, I do 5x5 heavy on squat.

I have been doing the 5x5 with the periodization, and I probably could have just done the single factor. I was setting personal bests before I even got to the deload phase.

I think I will go back to the 5x5 and stick with it as long as I keep getting stonger.

[604canuck]

Heres the quotes I was referring to


there are really so damn many ways to squat, even to squat with 5 sets of 5, or 6 sets of 4, or 4 sets of 6, or any similar thing, that there is not really any one program... im always hesitant to even write it out as a "program" becasue i dont really know what we will be doing in 4 weeks when we start such a thing... it kind of adapts as it goes.

but there seems to be some confusion as to the pyramid version or the non-pyramid version, so ill try to briefly explain the differences.

the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.


This is where I get a little lost, since Im pyramiding with weights on squats, do I pyramid with other excercises. OR since the weight gain on those maybe less than 5 pounds do I just use 3x5 on them and then perhaps aim to add more weight when I hit 7 reps on the wieght.