Determinism, fatalism, free will and such

[A & B]

This came to mind while reading the Atheist toolbox thread... It involves the theory of a mechanical universe, very popular around the late 19th century.

Imagine there is a box, with precisely 100 atoms in it. If at any given time you gave a physicist or mathematician the exact direction and energy/velocity of those 100 atoms, he/she would be able to predict with absolute certainty the paths of the atoms in the box. Exactly where they would all go, which ones would collide, where they would bounce off, how fast and so on. You could program a computer which would simulate the future movements and interactions of those atoms.

Now consider the universe to be a closed system. If there is no God, and the universe is merely a closed system, consisting of trillions and trillions of atoms interacting with each other, then in theory, the future is predetermined. If life and existence is simply the interactions of atoms, then in theory the future could be mathematically predicted. If all thought and movement is simply atoms interacting with each other, then there is no free will, only the appearance of free will.

In a purely secular universe, how can free will exist if the future, in theory, is mathematically predetermined?

Note, the actual act of calculating the future is not the issue. Rather the idea that it is possible.

[EssenceOfApathy]

The common refutation for that theory is based on quantum physics. The uncertainty principle, I believe it is called. Many of you likely know that contrary to macro physics, electrons do not behave like normal matter. Instead, they are thought to be based on probability. Some scientists say that electrons behave in an essentially random way, others claim that we are simply not able to perceive the reasons for their actions. However, assuming the electrons do work like this, it could create variation in our universe, and thus free will.

Other than that, I am willing to say that there is no free will; we are simply products of the universe's past. The uncertainty principle in regards to free will is often argued that the odd behavior of electrons would not cause any change on a macrophysical level. There is the probability that I will turn into a duck, but it is so unlikely, that it is irrelevant. Even so, the uncertainty principle is still irrelevant. Even if I DO turn into a duck, I had no choice in it. Even if random things happen, I did not cause their random nature. Their random nature would at best create a random response in me The uncertianty principle does a good job at disproving a mechanical universe, but it cannot argue lack of personal will.

Anyway, the question of whether we personally have free will is also irrelevant.

We have two choices:
live life feeling that we are completely products of our environment, and live a sub-par life from any non deterministic viewpoint.
Or:
live the best life possible, assuming there is free will, and enjoying the capability.

In one instance, we lose nothing if we are wrong as we had no choice in trying to act a willful life, while in the other situation we lose everything, as we have abandoned out own will.

Sorry if that made no sense, I'm a bit sleepy...

[fkn_give_me_abs]

Originally Posted by EssenceOfApathy

Sorry if that made no sense, I'm a bit sleepy...

apology accepted :S

definitely interesting stuff though

[A & B]

I can't go through this stuff without thinking about paradigms and scientific dogma.

[Stinker]

Originally Posted by EssenceOfApathy

The common refutation for that theory is based on quantum physics. The uncertainty principle, I believe it is called. Many of you likely know that contrary to macro physics, electrons do not behave like normal matter. Instead, they are thought to be based on probability. Some scientists say that electrons behave in an essentially random way, others claim that we are simply not able to perceive the reasons for their actions. However, assuming the electrons do work like this, it could create variation in our universe, and thus free will.

Other than that, I am willing to say that there is no free will; we are simply products of the universe's past. The uncertainty principle in regards to free will is often argued that the odd behavior of electrons would not cause any change on a macrophysical level. There is the probability that I will turn into a duck, but it is so unlikely, that it is irrelevant. Even so, the uncertainty principle is still irrelevant. Even if I DO turn into a duck, I had no choice in it. Even if random things happen, I did not cause their random nature. Their random nature would at best create a random response in me The uncertianty principle does a good job at disproving a mechanical universe, but it cannot argue lack of personal will.

Anyway, the question of whether we personally have free will is also irrelevant.

We have two choices:
live life feeling that we are completely products of our environment, and live a sub-par life from any non deterministic viewpoint.
Or:
live the best life possible, assuming there is free will, and enjoying the capability.

In one instance, we lose nothing if we are wrong as we had no choice in trying to act a willful life, while in the other situation we lose everything, as we have abandoned out own will.

Sorry if that made no sense, I'm a bit sleepy...

Bump.

Determinism is an extremely attractive concept to any scientifically minded individual because it makes causality absolute.

For all intensive purposes we do have free will; I appear to have the choice of what I do with myself, and this means I have the choice to take actions that make me happy.

[injured44]

no you're wrong

[Boffman]

Originally Posted by OmniPotentTitan

So because we can't understand how the electrons move because of the uncertainty principle, you believe that refutes determinism? That is illogical.

Sorry quantum physics does not refute determinism.

If quantum events are actually random then determinism is false as a result. Still, there is no free-will in the event that our universe is indeterminate because of randomness.

[B_Master_Flash]

Originally Posted by injured44

no you're wrong

Wow, mega bump. I thought A & B was back for a second.