Martial Artists ()()()()

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 08:15 AM

Are any of you into Martial Arts (or any other sort of combat)...

Currently I am in Tae-Kwon Do, but I don't think it does anything in real life, on the streets, and therefore wouldn't do anything in a UFC tournament (UFC is what I want to do!)...

I was thinking training in some Maui Tai Kick-Boxing, some Ju-Jitsu, and some Submission Wrestling...

Maybe even some Russian/Isreali combat training!

What do you guys do, how effective would it be in a street fight?

And does being active in learning a combat overtrain you?

**Choke ya Out** · 10-01-2002, 08:23 AM

i do vale tudo.. it is very effective in street fighting and is good for strength training... i dont find it overtrains me...

**Groosman** · 10-01-2002, 08:35 AM

Azzazzin: you've made good choices, maui thai and jiu jutsi are great, if youre into street fighting you'll find that you can use the maui thai a lot

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 08:47 AM

Well heres how I see it:

Maui Tai you learn to use your knees and elbows, and I'm a close up fighter (I'm very unflexable, and don't like high kicks), and if I combinde that with some sort of ground fighting, like Submission Wrestling or Ju-Jitsu, it will be very potent...

I think I will do this...

**CQ_Demolishers** · 10-01-2002, 09:08 AM

karate,
gives me speed and balance
i recommend it to every1

**dez\null** · 10-01-2002, 11:40 AM

wrestler. nuff said.

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by dez\null
wrestler. nuff said.

Seriously...

If a wrestler got Bruce Lee on the ground, he would be f***ed!

It's good to have a skill like Boxing or Kick-Boxing combined with Wrestling because you could do damage in the strikes too!

**Jack-MA** · 10-01-2002, 01:05 PM

Azzazzin we must be in the same boat!

I also study Taekwondo but wish to stop it for something more practical for the streets - I was also thinking along the lines of Submission Wrestling and Muay Thai, perhaps Wing Chun Kung Fu (very simple, effective style). Thai Boxing and Wing Chun are both very simple, deadly standup arts, and with something like jujitsu or submission wrestling, you should be able to quickly end a fight on the ground and get back on your feet - vital in a multiple attacker situation when you need to hit fast, hit hard, and move constantly.

Best of luck to you.

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 01:14 PM

Thanks bro!

Where you from?

**brandon194** · 10-01-2002, 04:13 PM

Krav Maga is awesome, but best used on the street. If I were you I would just look for a submission fighting dojo.

**BrKonman** · 10-01-2002, 04:44 PM

Hey, I'm with ya Jack-MA. I've got a little over 11 years of MA under my belt, randing from Mu-Do-Kai, TKD, Shotokan Karate, Judo(only a bit, I don't like rules :P) Wing Tsun, BJJ and Pentjak Silat.

Personally, I'd say any combination of Wing Tsun and Ground Fighting is the way to go. If you're going UFC though, watch out... I remember the whole No Wing Tsun controversy with Emile Boztepe(sp?) Wing Tsun and Pentjak Silat are by far, two of the deadliest, most brutal and effective arts I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing, and being a part of. I've been out of training for about a year and a half, but am planning on starting again, and since Silat instructers are so hard to come by, I'm planning on a split of Wing Tsun, Escrima, and BJJ.

As a little side note, I actually have two friends in the UFC and they both say their BJJ training is what they use most.

Just my .02

- B

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 06:53 PM

Wow that's really cool...

Could you do me a favor and send me a few links on the stuff, or have your friends email me at jesseginsberg420@hotmail.com

I really want to get into the sport, and even more so into UFC...

I'm from Canada so finding people that teach the arts here is even harder...

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 06:54 PM

By the way, why is Wing Tsun banned from UFC?

**AzBadass** · 10-01-2002, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by brandon194
Krav Maga is awesome, but best used on the street. If I were you I would just look for a submission fighting dojo.

Damn straight... I competed the Tae Kwon Do tournament circut for a few years. Good for a fun time, but worth almost nothing in a street fight.

I learned a little bit of stuff from my old man (He studies Krav Maga/U.S. Special Ops)

Also, if your school has a wrestling program (crazy ****s if they don't) TAKE UP WRESTLING! 80% of all the moves I've been taught from high school wrestling are one step away from limb destruction or a submission hold

- Badass

**BrKonman** · 10-01-2002, 07:14 PM

Not sure if it's still banned, but originally there was a bit of a dispute between one of the leading Wing Tsun instructors, Emin Boztepe, and the Gracies. They have different styles, and clashing personalities to boot. Emin has since gotten a little big for a britches, and decided to start the his Emin Boztepe Martial Arts System.(1) Don't remember the whole story, but it was on the IWTO's main website awhile ago. Since his exclusion from the IWTO, I haven't been keeping up on current events, but it's fully possible that Wing Tsun has once again been allowed into the UFC. I'll see if I can't get my friends to gimme the low down on what's going on.

Also, just an example of WT's ability. I'm a small guy, always have been. I just started bodybuilding, not because I want to be bigger to scare people, or because I worry about someone "picking" on me, but because I don't like following rules, even genetic ones. My weight range was 125 - 130, and my height 5'5", 5'6" on a random good day with big shoes. When I trained WT, I at one time found myself going hand to hand with 190 pound judo-practioner, a 235 pound Kickboxer, a 260 pound Wrestler. At my weight, and height I actually was able to embarass the judo practioner, out-perform the kickboxer by stopping kicks and punches before they had a chance, and trapping/trap-breaking with the wrestler even better than he could. It is simple, and effective. 'Nuff said.

I'll get ya more info as soon as I can. Right now, it's time to go workout :P G'luck in your endeavors.

- B

(1) - http://www.wingtsun.com/emin/index_e.htm

And a random site to wet your appetite while I find the good links :P http://realisticselfdefense.tripod.com/Weak.html

**Clayzinho** · 10-01-2002, 07:21 PM

I'm a brown belt in Karate and TKD. I quit both of them when I found out about BJJ. My TKD teacher told me to go and rent one of the early Ultimate Fighting Championships(UFC). Royce Gracie, son of Helio Gracie(founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *BJJ*) was able at only 176 pounds defete Submission Wreslters, Wrestlers, Karate, Boxing(the guy was ranked top ten at the time by the WBA), Judo, and virtually all other martial artist. So I started training at an academy run by one of Royce Gracies Purple Belts (Brown belt now). I have been training for three years and got promoted to Blue Belt early this year. This summer I made a trip to Cali just to train with Royce, his brother, and his nephews. The training was great. Now I know I'm gonna be stepping on some toes here, but heres the ruf facts on Martial Arts and Martial Arts "masters".

First off, Emin Boztep is a JOKE. He couldnt fight his way out of a paper back if he had to. Sure he trains long hours in Wing Chung or EMBAS(His own style). But he doesnt train realisticly.

Wing Chung, Karate, and Kung Fu arent practicle for the street. Partly because you never train any of these martial arts 100% like you would in a street fight. The "excuse" for this is that they are "too deadly" to practice at full speed. Any art that you cant practice at full speed is worthless. Becuase in a street fight you cant expect to preform any of your so called "deadly techniques" right there on the spot in a street fight thats going 100%. Why? Because you have never done any of the moves at 100% full speed before! True, that if you were to put a ridge hand strike right in my throat, it would F me up. Thats where most martial arts go wrong. However, its very hard to land a clean hit in a street fight at all much less go into some fancy fighting routine.

Allow me to explain further.

In addition to the above statement, according to LAPD statistics, 95% of all REAL STREETFIGHTS will end up in a CLINCH and on the GROUND. Thats why Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, Wrestlers and Judokas have the advantage. Because these arts ENPHASIZE the clinch, and fighting on the ground. Jiu-Jitsu guys takedowns are good to get somebody to the ground, and once on the ground the technique takes over and the BJJ Fighter will easily acheive mount, rain down punches, the opponent will turn to his stomache, and give the BJJ Fighter the oppertunity(that is never missed) to apply the rear naked choke. Judokas takedowns on concrete can render(sp?) an opponent unconcious from one throw. Wrestlers have great takedowns, and if you have ever been on the bottem of a wrestler(You will only notice this if you are a BJJ Guy), you know that a wrestlers base is so good that there is no getting out.

And I'll go further.

Now, lets say you train years and years of Kung Fu, or Wing Chung or whatever, and get in a street fight. I have already shown you how hard it is to his somebody with regular punches, much less special punches or kicks, that must hit a specific area of the body to do any damage. Now, since 95% of all street end in a clinch, that means that the amount of time for you to execute any of your special or deadly moves is almost none. To further understand this point read on...

In boxing, both amature and proffesional, the GOAL is to knock your opponent out. Now, as a Wing Chung or Kung Fu fighter, you goal is basicly the same, just maybe in some cases the strikes are aimed different parts of the body. Now, you see how hard it is for a Boxer to land ONE clean punch to the others chin. Often the fight must go on for rounds and rounds for this to occure. So if it takes boxers rounds and rounds to hit ONE part of the body, then how are you going to do it in a 15 second street fight? Also, notice what else boxers do when they are in trouble. They CLINCH. They clinch because they know that they will not be hit from the clinch. There is too little space to chamber a punch. Now, add the takedowns of a wrestler(ESPECIALLY GRECO ROMAN), Jiu-Jitsu guy, and Judoka into the mix, and imagine how many oppertunitys there are to take the opponent down.

Did anybody see Lewis verses Tyson? In the first two or three rounds, Tyson came out swinging like a mother. He WANTED to KO Lewis in the first round. Lewis didnt want to be hit, so he CLINCHED.

See my point? There is just too little time for any of the so called "deadly" martial arts to preform any of these "deadly", or as I like to call them EXTREMELY low percentage techniques before a clinch occures, or they are knocked out. I have brown belts in TKD and Karate and a Blue Belt in BJJ so I know what I'm talking about.

In a street fight, if you are attacked by more than one person, NO martial art will be enough to win that battle. The only thing that will win that is GRIT DETERMINATION.

The UFC, or any Mixed Martial Art event is no longer style versus style. Royce Gracie success opened everybodys eyes up to the fact that if you want to win, you MUST learn BJJ. There is NO fighter in any UFC or Pride today that doesnt know BJJ. A decent BJJ Blue Belt will defeat MANY-ALL of you top Boxers or Kickboxers. If you want to compete in the UFC(and be successfull), you must Excell in either Striking(Boxing, Kick Boxing) or Grappling (Mainly Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu). If you are a striker, you must have good sprawl(aka takedown defense), and a "decent" ground game(BJJ). If you are a Grappler, you must have good takedowns, and be able to mix it up on the feet in order to worry your opponent about more than just the takedown. Now, top wrestlers can dominate a match by takeing the opponent down, and doing what is called "Ground and Pound". Where the wrestler(fighter on top) holds the opponent down, and punches from the top. This is where the guy on bottem MUST have a good Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu game. Sweeping a top wrestler with incredable base is almost impossible. Submitting a strong wreslter who is raining down punches in almost impossible. This is where "combinations" or "Transitions" come into place for the BJJ guy. Work a submission, get the wrestler concerned about his base, then sweep, then go for submission, then sweep, then go for submission, eventually you will get one of them. But what makes this harder is that even top wrestlers (That fight UFC) have knowledge of the armbar, chokes, and sweeps of the Jiu-Jitsu guys. So it forces the Jiu-Jitsu guy to be more creative, and technical in his movements.

I know I have stepped on some toes, but this is how martial arts are.

PS: The only traditional Martial Arts IMO that are worth training in are Judo and Jeet Kun Do. Bruce Lee was sooo far ahead of his time its unreal. He infasized using what works. However, people that say he was so bad he kill defeat any opponent within seconds of a fight is day dreaming. Bruce Lee was very fast and strong, however, he wouldnt last long with a good grappler.

**Clayzinho** · 10-01-2002, 07:23 PM

No Martial Art has EVER been banned from the UFC. That crap about WT being banned from the UFC is crap.

Oh, and which master did Emin Boztep challenge at a seminar then beat up? I forget, but it is so funny. He has this whole "anti grappling" thing and he took the guy down and was side mounted on him and was beating him up. So much for anti grappling...

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 08:42 PM

Exactly, I feel that any ground defence art would indeed be best, since most street fights end up on the ground...

But I also want to learn a striking art...

Ok, BJJ sounds really good, but I was thinking of mixing it up with Tai Kick-Boxing for these reasons:

Effective strikes, use of knees, use of elbows, use of forarms, train for agility...

So what do you guys think?

Do you think there is any BJJ in Toronto?

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Azzazzin
Are any of you into Martial Arts (or any other sort of combat)...

Currently I am in Tae-Kwon Do, but I don't think it does anything in real life, on the streets, and therefore wouldn't do anything in a UFC tournament (UFC is what I want to do!)...

I was thinking training in some Maui Tai Kick-Boxing, some Ju-Jitsu, and some Submission Wrestling...

Maybe even some Russian/Isreali combat training!

What do you guys do, how effective would it be in a street fight?

And does being active in learning a combat overtrain you?

UFC won't get you anywhere on the streets

If TKD isn't working for you, find another school. A martial art is only as good as the instructor and the student.

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 09:12 PM

Look, it seems that most of you people are very young and don't yet grasp the concept of martial arts.

If you are still thinking that one style is better than the other, then you guys really need more experience. Your experience with McDojos is NOTHING.

Ground-fighting is a necessary component to fighting, but it should NEVER be the only component. If you're fighting a wrestler, you don't want to take him to the ground, you want to fight him stand-up while with a boxer, you can outkick him or grapple him. But by no means are ground arts better than boxing. True you only use your hands, but with great footwork and speed, you can stay in your comfort zone all the time. Plus, the boxer is a master with the hands as that's what they study most.

But don't get into the grappling phase. Grappling has its place. However, it is not the best for certain street conditions. You wouldn't do some moves on concrete than on a safe condition with mats. With multiple opponents, you're screwed. Even against a single opponent, if he has a weapon...

Why are you guys sucked into the "UFC/Pride" thing? It's a step closer to real fighting than something like WWF or a lot of MA tournaments in Western nations, but it is really nothing more than a fancy wrestling match with judges, rules, time, limitations, safe conditions, you name it. Grappling happens to be the best thing in THOSE conditions. Strikers are limited, judges determine wheter one wins (Gracie vs. Judo Guy where the judo guy won), there is winner-by-decision, more limitations, the mattress they call a mat, everything you can think of to prevent serious injury.

Emin took William Cheung down. William Cheung wasn't really anti-grapple but anti-Emin's association. Actually, William Cheung is a great fighter and would challenge Emin Botzepe any time again although he's nearing his age as he's over 45 or 50. Quite impressive for an old guy.

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 09:13 PM

If you honestly think you've are done with TKD, look harder. TKD does use elbows, knees, and a lot of kicks found in muay thai like the round kick and it has more hand techniques than what you might think.

**Azzazzin** · 10-01-2002, 09:45 PM

Maybe I should buy a good pair of running shoes so I can instead run away from a fight...

But I like to fight, and I would like to know how to fight well...

I do not like Tae-Kwon Do, and I find it to be boring...

This is simple: Ground technique + Striking technique = Good

You cannot only learn to kick, because things do happen in a fight, and if you find yourself on the ground, you are screwed...

Now, if you find yourself against someone who is an amazing wrestler, and you are a begginer wrestler, you are screwed. This is where striking comes into play...

So what I am looking for is not an art, but an effective way of fighting...

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Azzazzin
Maybe I should buy a good pair of running shoes so I can instead run away from a fight...

But I like to fight, and I would like to know how to fight well...

I do not like Tae-Kwon Do, and I find it to be boring...

This is simple: Ground technique + Striking technique = Good

You cannot only learn to kick, because things do happen in a fight, and if you find yourself on the ground, you are screwed...

Now, if you find yourself against someone who is an amazing wrestler, and you are a begginer wrestler, you are screwed. This is where striking comes into play...

So what I am looking for is not an art, but an effective way of fighting...

As contrary to popular belief, TKD is not all kicking. The idea came into play because most McDojangs put it into play.

Enroll into a better school that incorporates more locks, manipulations, throws, submissions, elbows, and knees and you'll see how fun it is... It's not supposed to be fun.

Well, since you're sucked into the "super MMA" stage, try shoto.

One thing that most sport ultimate styles lack is mental training. Not just mental endurance to push yourself harder, but mental training as in controlling emotions, calming yourself, learning to relax, and unifying your mind and body. Only then can you be effective at ANYTHING. On one scale, you have people like Randy Moss or Iverson who don't have control over their emotions and that's such a waste given their talent in their given sport. Then, you have people who bring the team (in MA, yourself) together to maximize your potential which is almost limitless, no matter what your physical condition is.

**BrKonman** · 10-01-2002, 10:16 PM

Okay, this is not a flame, or meant to start a war. I definitely agree that ground fighting is a necessary addition to any regime. I stated that WT plus a Ground Fighting art would be the way to go, so I'm not some guy saying WT is the only way to go and you don't need anything else. I'm not *that* foolish :P But you were off on several statements.

First: No Martial Art has EVER been banned from the UFC. That crap about WT being banned from the UFC is crap.

Now, I don't know if it was directly stated to the public or not, but WT practioners, during the ridiculous arguments between the Gracies and Boztepe, were regularly turned away from entrance into the arena. Officially banned? I have no clue, but I do know that my two friends in the UFC told me, when I was training and asking a rediculous amount of questions about things like this, that they knew several WT practioners who were not allowed entrance into their competition based on their art form. I have no reason to not believe them, especially since I can vaguely remember the statements on the IWTO's web page.

I can't say Boztepe is a complete joke of a fighter. He very definitely does have a talent, he's just an arrogant *******. And waaay to cocky for his own good. Bad image for the WT organizations on the whole. And I do remember that stint with his "demonstrations." His anti-grappling was also a load of bs, because what in the world is all the "trapping" called? Umm.. grappling? At least where I come from, you lock someones wrist and turn it into an armbar, that's grappling.

Now... I get to pick apart where I see differences in my experience with WC/WT and your experiences.

:: Wing Chung, Karate, and Kung Fu arent practicle for the street. Partly because you never train any of these martial arts 100% like you would in a street fight. The "excuse" for this is that they are "too deadly" to practice at full speed. Any art that you cant practice at full speed is worthless. Becuase in a street fight you cant expect to preform any of your so called "deadly techniques" right there on the spot in a street fight thats going 100%. Why? Because you have never done any of the moves at 100% full speed before! True, that if you were to put a ridge hand strike right in my throat, it would F me up. Thats where most martial arts go wrong. However, its very hard to land a clean hit in a street fight at all much less go into some fancy fighting routine. ::

Okay, in my training with WT, all techniques were known within about a months time. It's simple, and that's how it should be. Techniques mean didly-squat, what matters is the principles behind them. Counter A for Punch A means jack when a guy pulls Move C-D-and M. So these "deadly techniques"... I've never heard of 'em, never seen 'em, never plan on listening to 'em when they are mentioned. This isn't dim--mak, I learn where my fist should go, and it goes there when the timing is right because thats what my reactions say. There are no fancy fighting techniques in WT... just application of principles in whatever appears to be the most efficient and economical means based on a reaction.

The real training is in Chi-Sao (Stick Hands.) Developing a sensitivity that allows you to react before a motion is done. Simple again, efficient and to the point. If it weren't for this sensitivity training, I feel WC wouldn't be worth two licks. WC is in-fighting. It's fast, it's economy of motion, and it's react before something can be done to you. It's not which technique goes where.

And this junk about not training at full speed.... if I'm not training at full speed, there's no way in hell I will ever get past someone else who has been training in Chi-Sao. I better be going at full-speed/maximum effort if I wanna get a single hit in. I've seen matches between two WC practioners go for over a minute before someone finally got a shot past. That one shot is all that's needed to chain through and end the fight, by the by. Oh.. and don't forget about our Mok-Jong(did I spell that right for once?) The infamous wooden-dummy. That little punk is hell on hands when hitting full speed, full strength, but great for targeting and toughing up hands. I've broken through a few in my day.

:: In addition to the above statement, according to LAPD statistics, 95% of all REAL STREETFIGHTS will end up in a CLINCH and on the GROUND. Thats why Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, Wrestlers and Judokas have the advantage. Because these arts ENPHASIZE the clinch, and fighting on the ground. Jiu-Jitsu guys takedowns are good to get somebody to the ground, and once on the ground the technique takes over and the BJJ Fighter will easily acheive mount, rain down punches, the opponent will turn to his stomache, and give the BJJ Fighter the oppertunity(that is never missed) to apply the rear naked choke. Judokas takedowns on concrete can render(sp?) an opponent unconcious from one throw. Wrestlers have great takedowns, and if you have ever been on the bottem of a wrestler(You will only notice this if you are a BJJ Guy), you know that a wrestlers base is so good that there is no getting out. ::

Agreed, a pure WT guy hits the ground, he's going down and down hard. That's why a grapple background is a *necessity* not an option. However, I can't agree with that statistic, simply because it's not based on street fights(any fighting, or no fighting background, doesn't matter) versus someone who's goal is to stay standing, or get back up from the ground. I've been in bar fights, I've been blind-sided, I've been 3 on 1 and 5 on 2 and so on. I don't go to the ground easily, because I don't wanna. If I'm already fighting the guy, my reactions keep me up, that's what they are trained to do. If he tackles me from the get go, I find a way up, in a hurry. Either way, I get standing if I'm not comfortable on the ground. (Of course, I do have enough background with ground work to GET UP... which helps a lot :-P)

Clinches... nothing wrong with that in WT. I'm already pressed up to your body, how much closer do you want me? You go to grab, I hit ya below the arm pit, or in the kidneys, or the groin, or the headbut to the jaw. It doesn't matter to me, the moment I know you're moving(sensitivity training) to grab me I've already hit you hard enough for a .25 second pause. More than enough to get something going with additional applications of principles.

:: Now, lets say you train years and years of Kung Fu, or Wing Chung or whatever, and get in a street fight. I have already shown you how hard it is to his somebody with regular punches, much less special punches or kicks, that must hit a specific area of the body to do any damage. Now, since 95% of all street end in a clinch, that means that the amount of time for you to execute any of your special or deadly moves is almost none. To further understand this point read on... ::

I've already stated, I don't do special or deadly moves. I hit first, I hit fast, I hit in a way that matters. I even occasionally block your clinch by hitting you in the jaw, and pushing your arm out of the way in the process. (Hard to explain in words, just imagine one stick being pushed slightly out of the way by another stick pointing straight out.) Or ending on a wrist lock, trap, whatever I have the opportunity to do. I don't need time to execute something, you need to finish executing it

:: In boxing, both amature and proffesional, the GOAL is to knock your opponent out. Now, as a Wing Chung or Kung Fu fighter, you goal is basicly the same, just maybe in some cases the strikes are aimed different parts of the body. Now, you see how hard it is for a Boxer to land ONE clean punch to the others chin. Often the fight must go on for rounds and rounds for this to occure. So if it takes boxers rounds and rounds to hit ONE part of the body, then how are you going to do it in a 15 second street fight? Also, notice what else boxers do when they are in trouble. They CLINCH. They clinch because they know that they will not be hit from the clinch. There is too little space to chamber a punch. Now, add the takedowns of a wrestler(ESPECIALLY GRECO ROMAN), Jiu-Jitsu guy, and Judoka into the mix, and imagine how many oppertunitys there are to take the opponent down. ::

Chamber a punch? Hah... I've never chambered a punch in my life. (Even in practicing TKD, which pissed my instructors off) If I'm grabbing your wrist and I need to punch, screw the grab I'm coming right off it for the next move. WT teaches two hands moving independently, no chambering, no need to extend. I'm in close to you to begin with, to PREVENT you from being able to do exactly what you're clinching against. I'm small, I don't want you to have an arm or leg length advantage. And I most definitely don't want to be on the receiving end of a punch that was chambered and perfectly executed.

:: See my point? There is just too little time for any of the so called "deadly" martial arts to preform any of these "deadly", or as I like to call them EXTREMELY low percentage techniques before a clinch occures, or they are knocked out. I have brown belts in TKD and Karate and a Blue Belt in BJJ so I know what I'm talking about. ::

Again.. not flaming, not calling you out, just honest curiosity. How many in-fighters have you dealt with in your day? I find in-fighting leads to the highest percentage of blocking/countering/trapping/efficient strikes, simply due to the fact that I'm so close, I can feel exactly what's going to happen, or is happening, and have a chance to barely move but succeed in my goal.

**BrKonman** · 10-01-2002, 10:25 PM

:: The UFC, or any Mixed Martial Art event is no longer style versus style. Royce Gracie success opened everybodys eyes up to the fact that if you want to win, you MUST learn BJJ. ... ::

Not necessarily BJJ, but I couldn't think of anything better as a ground fighting art. (Except perhaps the form of Silat where everything is done from a crouch, but I'm not much for sitting in Indonesian Jungles to get trained :-P) However, it should not be the end all be-all of training. If you can keep someone up, who simply doesn't fight as well from the stand, then when the time comes to hit the ground, he's already at a disadvantage. A proper combination is necessary to make a well-rounded fighter.

Once again, no flames/dissing/etc intended. Just clearing some things up that seemed to be left out. I'm sure there's more, and some things will remain unclear, but tonite was leg nite and my head is spinning.

Anyways, if you still have questions feel free to ask away. I'm always up for sharing what I know and learning something new... especially MA related.

- B

PS: :: I know I have stepped on some toes, but this is how martial arts are. :: .... I didn't even touch the concepts of Silat, but it would be a prime example of how you can never make such a broad statement. Oh, and don't forget Ba-Gwa-Zhang, and TaiJiQuan practioners. Those guys scare the sh!t out of me!

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by BrKonman
:: The UFC, or any Mixed Martial Art event is no longer style versus style. Royce Gracie success opened everybodys eyes up to the fact that if you want to win, you MUST learn BJJ. ... ::

Not necessarily BJJ, but I couldn't think of anything better as a ground fighting art. (Except perhaps the form of Silat where everything is done from a crouch, but I'm not much for sitting in Indonesian Jungles to get trained :-P) However, it should not be the end all be-all of training. If you can keep someone up, who simply doesn't fight as well from the stand, then when the time comes to hit the ground, he's already at a disadvantage. A proper combination is necessary to make a well-rounded fighter.

Once again, no flames/dissing/etc intended. Just clearing some things up that seemed to be left out. I'm sure there's more, and some things will remain unclear, but tonite was leg nite and my head is spinning. Anyways, if you still have questions feel free to ask away. I'm always up for sharing what I know and learning something new... especially MA related.

- B

PS: :: I know I have stepped on some toes, but this is how martial arts are. :: .... I didn't even touch the concepts of Silat, but it would be a prime example of how you can never make such a broad statement. Oh, and don't forget Ba-Gwa-Zhang, and TaiJiQuan practioners. Those guys scare the sh!t out of me!

You must learn a grappling art... If you want to compete in the UFC or the like. But the UFC is not fighting. Royce Gracie has never accepted a challenge unless the RULES were to his liking. Rickson however IMO, is a much better fighter in the sense that he's more open to other styles.

**MartialArtist** · 10-01-2002, 11:04 PM

BrK...
If your instructors get mad because of that, change. They are too blind and they stick to what works for them.

Not meaning to flame, but a brown belt in TKD and a blue belt doesn't mean you know the art. It means you are in the beginning process, but one does not "know" the art until decades of practice. I'm not talking about you know, but who are people to judge an art if they've never seen it or used it at its full practical level? I'm guessing most of you who label some arts as ineffective went to a McDojang school. If you haven't mastered the art, who are you to judge it? Because you are bad at it because you trained incorrectly and did not put enough time into it and are not fit for the art (too slow, etc.), who are you to judge? A tall guy would label wrestling as bad but TKD as good because of his disadvantage in wrestling and his advantage in some aspects like range? Although taller guys are usually less agile due to physics, they would have a much better time with something like boxing or TKD than a grappling/shooting art.

If you think TKD is ineffective, go to Korea and try to get into a combat TKD school.

And for BorKon, yes, boxers clinch. But TKD also has numerous counters for the clinch or if you're in a clinch (yes, they do teach multiple techniques for clinches), what to do right after. I remember the first thing my instructor did when he put me in a clinch was that he kneed me. When I tried to do the same thing in a drill, he got a double leg and bam. And this was an all-day type of thing, like boot camp. A few years later, I finally got him in a clinch in a sparring match (where he wasn't trying) and I tried to knee him and he elbowed me so hard in the thigh before my knee reached it's point of full power.

**BrKonman** · 10-01-2002, 11:25 PM

Hey MartialArtist, I think you have me confused with Clayzinho based on your responses. I didn't really make it clear, but I thought someone following the thread would catch it. Everything I posted between the :: :: was a quote from Clayzinho, not my own statements.

Yes, I did change instructors... didn't help though, my TKD instructors were still McDojo's as so many put it. I have fought against people with more than 7 years in Korean TKD, and yes, they are quite good. Unfortunately, from my point of view, it's too much of their own force driving their attacks. It's also very technique based, and I feel that a good and true martial art is good because it teaches concepts, not techniques. No offense to any Korean TKD practioners, it is very definitely an effective and powerful form, but for someone such as myself, it simply is not a feasible option. (By the by, I wasn't the one who said TKD is ineffective, hope ya didn't mistake me for it)

I have more than 11 years in many forms of MA in my grasp, and I don't feel for a second I have reached any decent level of qualification in them. I may not feel I've reached a good level for another 20 years of practice, but so be it. However, to say if you haven't mastered the art you cannot judge it is something I can NOT agree with. To master an art means a lifetime of dedication, and to make a judgement call on my personal feelings of a particular martial arts effectiveness most certainly should not require my lifetime to decide.

Finally, once again ya got me mixed up with who I was quoting(I will try to be more careful next time.) The original post by Clayzinho spoke of how clinching is a great advantage for non-grappling based arts. My comments were merely that it is no such advantage against a martial art such as WT, and others.

The one who plans to be more careful on his quoting:
- B

**Azzazzin** · 10-02-2002, 05:21 AM

Ok, I do not feel TKD is bad, I just don't feel it is right for me...

Maybe if I found a good master, or flew to Korea, I would have a better time of it, but the fact is there are almost no teachers here in Canada that really know how to teach, and I sure as hell can't speak Korean...

Once again, I am not at all looking for an art...

Tai-Chi is an art, but it doesn't mean I could ever use it in a fight...

To master an art takes basically a lifetime, and I think it's all bull**** (no offence). I am just looking for the best of all things to throw into my little mix, and have my own style of fighting based on a lot of effective styles...

Right now I'm looking at Tai Kick-Boxing and BJJ, but Wing does sound cool...

**Clayzinho** · 10-02-2002, 05:51 AM

Okay..........

Lets start from the top. Hidehiko Yoshida never beat Royce. Royce dominated the fight up until the pre mature stoppage. Royce was never in trouble. If you want pics of Yoshidas "phantom choke" I have them and it clearly shows Royces neck 100% exposed. Its exposed because Yoshida didnt have his hand or wrist around his neck.

No Martial Artist was ever turned away from the UFC because of their style. And WT fighter that showed up would have been schooled by Royce the same way Royce schooled all his other opponents. Oh, and in the UFC's that Royce fought in, the only rules were no biting and no eye gouging....

I trained a total of 6 years in Karate, and 2 years in TKD. You said that since I'm not a "master" of the art that I'm not qualified to judge the art itself or whatever. And your right, I'm not a "Master" and I thank God for that. I thank him that I didnt spend more time than I did in it before I found something that really works. Yeah, I'm a Blue Belt in BJJ. Thats the first belt up from white, then its blue purple brown and black. The difference in belts is not who knows more moves, because every time somebody beats me its with a move I have seen and done a thousand times, its the sensativity to your opponent, how well you can feel his movement, how much pressure you can put on him etc....

You said that you could stop somebody from taking you down from a clinch. Yeah, I'm sure that WT and TKD have numerous "clinch defenses", but that doesnt mean they work. If I get both my arms under yours and around your waist, your done. I dont care what you hit me with, it will not have enough power to do any effect. Taking somebody down from a clinch that doesnt know either Judo, Wrestling, or BJJ is very easy. Because no other style (except kickboxing which does have some good clinch stuff) effectivly address ways to get out of a clinch.

I know TKD and Karate, as well as pretty much all other arts along that line very well. When I say that I mean that I spent about 8 years of my life dedicated to them and learning more and more about them.

If anybody knows Royce or actually has an clue on the MMA world, they know that the only rules Royce ask for are LESS RULES. Rickson IMO is the best Gracie. Ricksons technique is precise and crisp. His knowledge of the basics make him unbeatable. His only real opponent is age.

WT may look good and stuff, but the reality of it is is that once your in a clinch and dont know Judo BJJ or Wrestling, your not going to last long. Wasnt Bruce Lee big into WT but left it because of too many "fixed positions"?

Yes, I have been in enough fights to know what works and what doesnt. And you have to notice that the martial arts that are most effect are always the least popular. Judo, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Kick Boxing. I list kick boxing only because its the only striking art that I feel effectivly address the clinch situation.

If you want footage of BJJ guys easily defeating fighters from other arts, check this out-
http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/index.html

Click on Videos, and scroll down to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu- IN ACTION There are even previews available I think.

Another thing, I train BJJ because I feel its the most street effective marital art out there. If I felt that WT or any other style similiar had something to offer, I would train them. But I dont do katas, and hours and hours of self defense moves that dont work.

I feel that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the only martial art that has effect stand up striking techniques, clinch techniques, and ground techniques. These three links are great for info on BJJ

http://www.gracieacademy.com/index.shtml -Where I spent my summer training.

http://www.claudiofrancabjj.com/about.html

and the mother site- www.bjj.org

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