Why cant you gain muscle and lose weight at the same time?

[JesseStylex]

I heard people say you either have to cut or bulk.

But ive been eating normal sized meals with protein and stuff in there. (Not diet or bulking meals )

And Ive been lifting and running 1 mile a day for 5 weeks. ive droped 18 pounds and gained muscle all at the same time.

So why do people say bulk or cut?

[IRCRomeo]

Well you won't do much of either. When bulking, people look for substantial gains. That isn't possible while cutting. I'm currently doing both as well. My strength and mass have improved, but I'm getting learner as well. I'm not trying to get huge, just more tone and lean.

[Fuelish]

..... but I'm getting learner as well. I'm not trying to get huge, just more tone and lean.

U-oh ..... there's that "tone" word....good luck, bro - folks hate that word it seems

[Swiftyer]

U-oh ..... there's that "tone" word....good luck, bro - folks hate that word it seems

its so true.
There is no such thing as TONE!

[mimo]

I heard people say you either have to cut or bulk.

But ive been eating normal sized meals with protein and stuff in there. (Not diet or bulking meals )

And Ive been lifting and running 1 mile a day for 5 weeks. ive droped 18 pounds and gained muscle all at the same time.

So why do people say bulk or cut?

because to gain weight you have to increase your calorie intake to above maintainance and to lose you have to drop it below maintainance. if youre a beginner,you can build muscle and drop fat quite easy,provided that your diet and training are not retarded

[RipStone]

Is it possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? Yes. Easy to do? Hell no!

If everything is in perfect harmony(diet, cardio, lifting, recovery) and you are a little lucky, then you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. However, this is very, very diffuiclt to achieve and takes a lot of expereince in regards to knowing how your body works and what works well for you. You would be better off not wasting your time trying to do the "impossible" and just pick on goal and stick with it.

The reason why it is so hard to do is(and this is a really over-simplfying things) in order to gain muscle you have to at an excess of calories. IN order to lose fat you have to eat less calories then you burn. For example, lets say you maintain your weight by eating 2000 cals a day. If you ate 1500-1800 cals a day then you would lose about 1lb a week, losing mostly fat and some muscle. If you ate 2200-2500 cals a day then you would gain about 1 lb a week, gaining mostly muscle and some fat.

[rockstarsar]

U-oh ..... there's that "tone" word....good luck, bro - folks hate that word it seems

its so true.
There is no such thing as TONE!

Oh God, don't get me started. (I'm a girl)

[savvy]

you can lose fat/gain muscle together, it just takes time

If you do a clean bulk, with some cardio on off days from lifting, the muscle you gain will use more kcals/your exercise will lose body fat

[mimo]

you can lose fat/gain muscle together, it just takes time

If you do a clean bulk, with some cardio on off days from lifting, the muscle you gain will use more kcals/your exercise will lose body fat

except that the muscle you gain will also need more cals if you want it to grow some more.
it can be done,for a non-beginner too,but its not easy and it takes some knowledge.ive done it with UD2.0

[xJonathanx]

The reason why it is so hard to do is(and this is a really over-simplfying things) in order to gain muscle you have to at an excess of calories. IN order to lose fat you have to eat less calories then you burn.

Yes. And cardio will burn muscle, along with fat. Unless you have bulked previously and there is alot to spare, you'll have a hard time putting size when trying to do both.

[TDukes]

because muscle weighs more then fat....therefore, if you gain muscle...you gain weight

[vja2000]

A simple truth; most body builders put on the best lean mass after a hard cutting cycle.

What the first poster is asking is why folks say you can't cut and gain at the same time - WHEN HE'S DOING IT NOW! And, although he IS doing it now, y'all are STILL telling him he can't.

Truth is, you can put on good, quality muscle while droping body fat percentages and for someone heavy or overweight, this is the best way to go. I always refered to this process as "getting in shape" or "becomming fit."

Most people who lift weights, lift weights to get in shape. A person who lifts weight and yet stays fat, will soon find something else to do. I had a friend of mine who did this; lifted and stayed fat. He was very strong and had 21-inch biceps. The problem was, we all knew he didn't have 21-inch biceps. In fact, none of us knew what size his biceps actually were. They could have been a very respectable 19-inches, but instead he only ever got credit for being fat and strong - not fit...

Vince

[savvy]

except that the muscle you gain will also need more cals if you want it to grow some more.
it can be done,for a non-beginner too,but its not easy and it takes some knowledge.ive done it with UD2.0

yeh, generally on a bulk you gradually up your calories..its very hard if you go about it like most (the reason most people think its not possible), but with knowledge comes the smarts to get it done.

Getting in great shape is 90% in the mind / 10% in the body

[Thin Build]

ive been losing fat and gaining muscle since i began training 8 months ago. i dont foresee myself stopping this trend any time in the next year. I have a good feel for my body so i figure as long as my protein intake is high it wont matter if im just taking in 2.5k cals a day.

[Flex500]

I heard people say you either have to cut or bulk.

But ive been eating normal sized meals with protein and stuff in there. (Not diet or bulking meals )

And Ive been lifting and running 1 mile a day for 5 weeks. ive droped 18 pounds and gained muscle all at the same time.

So why do people say bulk or cut?

My first quiestion would be how do you know you've gained muscle? You can't judge by weight because you have lost weight. You can't go by how you look because of course you look way more muscular because you've lost fat. You can't go by measurements because most likely they are getting smaller if you have lost by fat. And you can't go by strength, well, because hell their are 150 pound guys that are small that can play with 315 on bench. A lot of that has to do with other factors besides muscle, especially if you are a beginner. Many times when people are losing fat and they think they are also gaining muscle because they look more cut and appear to have more muscle. But in reality they haven't gained muscle just the fat over the muscle.


I think bulking and cutting is the best way to do it. The problem is people think to extreme in either direction. Bulking doesn't mean get up to 30% bodyfat and be a fata*s. Why not bulk up to 12-14% bf then cut down to 7-10%. Also it is harder to keep in an anabolic state and keep building with low bodyfat.

Also many people/sources think you grow muscle and gain weight better with a bodyfat over 10% but under 15%. That is pretty much the ideal range for growing.

"essentials of strength and conditioning"
"effective strength training"
"Journal of strength and condiditong" april 2002, optimimum fat levels for puting on muscle.

[IRCRomeo]

Oh God, don't get me started. (I'm a girl)

Uh oh, what did I start? =P

Okay, okay! Leaner and ripped! Better?

[Flex500]

What the first poster is asking is why folks say you can't cut and gain at the same time - WHEN HE'S DOING IT NOW! And, although he IS doing it now, y'all are STILL telling him he can't.

but the fact is that out of all the people who say "I am losing fat and gaining muscle" only about 1% of these people are actually doing this.

For example one of my close friends has a brother who is around 5'10" and 215 pounds. He wanted to gain muscle and lose fat. So anyway he got down to 200 before he started lifting. Just diet and cardio. He told us "man there ain't no reason to lift because look at all the muscle I have gained just from diet and cardio." But in fact he hadn't gained any muscle. But he lost a lot of fat. His arms went from around 16" to 14" but everybody thought his arms got so much bigger than they were. But in reality they were two inches smaller but looked lean.

Anyway my point is most people who think they are losing fat and gaining muscle are not actually doing that. Plus most of these people who do this never really look bigger. I mean my buddy who tries to do this has looked the same for 3 years. Why not just get up to 12,13 or 14% bf and get co*k diesel, then cut down. Do you need veins running through sculpted abs during winter anyway??

[Thestef]

If you are a true body builder, there are no other ways to gain any amount of muscle worth talking about unless you bulk, and then cut.
I think it also depends on your body type, ecto, meso, or endo.
Skinny, naturally muscular, and fat.

ecto guys find the bulking part hard, and the cut easy.
meso will find both equal
endo will find cutting hard

You have to adjust your trainning/Nutrition accordingly.

Here is a good web link to read up...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cynthia9.htm

[Jules Verne]

Besides the fact that it can be difficult to tell if you are gaining muscle when you are loosing weight (I agree, lifts are not a good way to determine this, especially if you have been lifting less than a few years), try gaining muscle and loosing fat at 8-10%BF.

At this range you will be in no doubt that you are actually doing this by simply looking at results in the mirror. I don't think there are many people here who have been lifting a while who can honestly say they can put on muscle while cutting below 10% or even 12% BF. It probably IS possible, but it would just take so long most don't bother - just cut the few extra %BF, then start a clean bulk.

For those people at higher BF and loosing say 1+lb/week, I seriously doubt you are putting on muscle - maybe if you have just started lifting (less than 6-9 months).

[c_montes]

I have been lifting for around 8 months. When I started I weighed 178 and had a BFP around 16. Currently I weigh 196 and have a BFP around 12. Doesn't this classify as cutting and bulking at the same time? Anyways, goodbye newbie gains. It was great while it lasted.

[vja2000]

If you are a true body builder, there are no other ways to gain any amount of muscle worth talking about unless you bulk, and then cut.

This is precisely my point with respect to a post I made in another thread; that the term "bulking" is confusing.

Bulking is the act or process of putting on more muscle. Therefore, the above statement, though it be exactly true, is also very confusing and suggestive.

It is true that you cannot put on more muscle without bulking, for bulking IS putting on more muscle. But, the confusion comes from the way the statement is phrased; it suggests that bulking and putting on more muscle are two different things - they are not.

Taking in more calories will result in bulking, provided you are doing something to stimulate muscle growth; this is a given. However, taking in more calories while doing nothing to stimulate muscle growth will not result in bulking, it will result in becomming fat. Therefore, the term "bulking" will not apply to this person; the person taking in more calories while doing nothing to stimulate muscle growth, even though they are taking in more calories - follow me? In other words, taking in more calories is not bulking, building more muscle is bulking and more calories are needed to do this. This is how "bulking" became associated with taking in more calories, but "bulking" is not simply taking in more calories. Once again, increased muscle mass is "bulking" in its true sense.

Maybe you all think this is a fine line to draw, but it is an extremely important distinction to make. Too many people are screwing themselves trying to "bulk up" because they do not realize that bulking is not simply taking in more calories and becoming heavier, but rather that "bulking up" means building more lean muscle mass and that it requires calories to do so. To put it another way; more calories do not result in more muscle on their own, it is the desire for more muscle that results in the need for more calories. Conversely, an abundance of calories will aid in the building of more muscle, but if the process of building more muscle ends, an abundance of calories will result in more fat. Putting on more fat is not "bulking," putting on more muscle is. Therefore, bulking is not simply eating more, it is the act of building more lean muscle mass.

I agree that it is near impossible to build muscle while losing fat. It is more likely that in order to build muscle, you must put on some fat. I live in Florida and my "shirt off" days are not quite over yet. I've enjoyed several months of solid abs, vascularity, and a well defined physique. However, during these same months of hard work under a heavy bar, I have only managed to gain 3 pounds while maintaining a body fat percentage of between 9.5 and 10.5 on average. I will now sacrifice the abs and definition for the coming months by taking in a greater level of calories, which will hopefully result in a great deal of "bulking up."

Vince

[mimo]

I have been lifting for around 8 months. When I started I weighed 178 and had a BFP around 16. Currently I weigh 196 and have a BFP around 12. Doesn't this classify as cutting and bulking at the same time? Anyways, goodbye newbie gains. It was great while it lasted.

if you bulk with a slight calorie surplus,and i mean 200-300 cals over maintainance, you MAY be able to gain muscle while keeping bodyfat stable or nearly stable.of course you will gain slower than a person who does a true bulking season.its a compromise.
regarding your post, do the math: if you gain muscle and keep bodyfat stable,your bodyfat % drops.this doesnt mean that youre losing fat,just that youre improving your muscle:fat ratio

[c_montes]

if you bulk with a slight calorie surplus,and i mean 200-300 cals over maintainance, you MAY be able to gain muscle while keeping bodyfat stable or nearly stable.of course you will gain slower than a person who does a true bulking season.its a compromise.
regarding your post, do the math: if you gain muscle and keep bodyfat stable,your bodyfat % drops.this doesnt mean that youre losing fat,just that youre improving your muscle:fat ratio

I have never thought of it that way. Thanks for clearing this up a bit.

[SquatUK]

Yeah. Of course it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

But I think, with excellent diet and exercise, lowering your BODY FAT % while clean bulking is possible.

Here's an example:

John starts lifting at 170lbs at 12% BF (149.6lbs LBM, 20.4lbs fat)

Over a few months, he puts on 13 lbs of lean muscle and 1 lb of fat.

Therefore his weight will be 184 lbs (162.6lbs LBM, 21.4lbs fat)

Now his BF% is 11.6%.

But saying that, it's damn hard to do.

[SquatUK]

Yeah. Of course it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

But I think, with excellent diet and exercise, lowering your BODY FAT % while clean bulking is possible.

Here's an example:

John starts lifting at 170lbs at 12% BF (149.6lbs LBM, 20.4lbs fat)

Over a few months, he puts on 13 lbs of lean muscle and 1 lb of fat.

Therefore his weight will be 184 lbs (162.6lbs LBM, 21.4lbs fat)

Now his BF% is 11.6%.

But saying that, it's damn hard to do.

What do you guys think of this?

[dp13368]

Interesting article on exactly what you are asking:

from this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=488307

Cutter, Bulker, Cutting, Bulking-WHAT A CROCK OF BULL****

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------DOGGCRAPP-

If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?!

Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!)

Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!
If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.
You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a ****load of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that

DOGGCRAPP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[tanmonopolist]

This is a great thread

[Thestef]

Interesting article on exactly what you are asking:

from this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=488307

Cutter, Bulker, Cutting, Bulking-WHAT A CROCK OF BULL****

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------DOGGCRAPP-

If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?!

Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!)

Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!
If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.
You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a ****load of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that

DOGGCRAPP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems that every one has their own answer to "body building" about bulking and cutting and cardio, or how to train.

I think the trick is about how much you eat, what you eat, how you lift, how much cardio you do, and your genetics, and what you physically look like even before you start doing body building, and what your goal is.

Every one seems to have 1 answer for every one, but its not that simple.

I read and article a few weeks ago on bodybuilding.com about Anabolic Cardio... yes anabolic Cardio?? I told myself WTF is Anabolic Cardio? I wish I could give you guys the link, but I can't find it ????

It said to do 10 to 20 minutes of "Intense cardio", your body will releases a HUGE amount of growth hormones after the cardio session is over, just as much as if you worked out the big muscles of your body "legs workout".
They specifically explained that anything over 20 minutes is not good since your body will release a big amount of Cortisone, and as most of us know, Cortisone is very catabolic and its a body builders worst enemies. It converts your body's amino acids from your food intake and from your muscles into Glucoses to feed your nervous system... you body won't simply use up the carb you just ate or the protein from your food... if WILL use up amino acids from you muscles... hence being CATABOLIC.

It said to do use a full body cardio machine so that you SHOCK your system as much as possible and to PUSH as hard as you can during that 10 to 20 min of cardio, and not just ease through like you would do when doing 40 min of cardio or so.

Conclusion:

If you keep the cardio under 20 minutes and do it very intense, you will burn calories, you will lose fat, but your body will also release growth hormones and pack on muscle and at the very least keep the muscles you have.
They explained to drink your usual protain shake before, and after the work out, or take your usual supplements the same as if you just did a weight lifting workout.

If you going to compete or really need to lose a ton of fat... then you will have to adjust your calorie intake, cut out carbs and eat them at key times during the day and you might have to do more then 20 minutes of Cardio.