WARNING: VPX's NO-Shotgun & BSN's CellMass contain traces of Coumarin

[fitnfirm]

Eric is a legend, any supp company would be honored to have him on their team.

[dan7681]

Dan7681 is a legend, any supp company would be honored to have him on their team.

Well I think legend may be to strong of a word (maybe hero?) but thank you fitnfirm

[redhawk76]

No offense or disrespect to BB.com but I don't believe the results of the tests that are carried out by them.

BB.com is all about business. Good brands or not. Safe supplements or Steroids. Whatever legal.

BSN is too good a brand for them to ignore and they just wont want the product of their choice to fail label claims. IMHO, whichever product is a cash-cow for them, they would want the same to pass tests, weather bad publicity and come at the top at all costs.

Agreed completely.

[laz]

I cannot speak on behalf of BSN, but I can however speak on behalf of VPX. And yes, we do care what goes on in these threads. But what these boards do not see is all the work we are doing to clear things up. These things take time, tests take time, working with the TGA in AU on this matter takes time and will not happen over night. Patience is a virtue and something most people do not possess. I can understand people may be upset about these allegations, but don't forget, innocent until proven guilty, and at this point the AU has nothing to show for their claims.

The employees at VPX do not have time to sit on these boards 24/7 to make sure all members are happy. But I am here to help whenever I am able. I apologize if you are not getting the answers you are looking for, but be patient and you will see.

You are right, even if Shotgun did contain Coumarin, it would not be enough to cause any physical harm. And the scientists at VPX are NOT sitting around saying, "hmm...I think we should put some Coumarin in Shotgun and see how many people will figure it out." We are good people producing good products, take it or leave it.

This is the response i would expect to see. Obviously I dont think that this product was purposely contaminated. I dont see why others feel that this issue can be cleared up in a day. Lets use rationale here.

[Patrick Arnold]

Yeah, he did. I actually discussed this with him and asked him this direct question: "Are you sure you want to post this?"

Please understand that I was only posting HIS words...they were not MY personal view. I know that in the past he and Pat have not seen eye to eye, and have argued many, many times...and both of them have been guilty of personal attacks against eachother and eachother's company. However, I do not know why he attacked Pat like this in this thread. He was adamant in wanting me to post this for him, so maybe there is more to the story than we know about. Maybe more has gone on between the two of them than we know.

Honestly, I have alot of respect for Pat's knowledge. I have argued with him in the past myself, and disagree with some things he has done, but I cannot deny the man's brilliance. Plus, I have used several of his products with great success and also love his MD column.

I also respect Jack alot too, but I DO wish he would have posted his response himself, and next time I will ask him to do so. I do not want to get involved in any kind of pissing match, and should not have agreed to post what I did.

If I DO post anything more in this thread, it will either be my views alone or any facts I become privy to.

I don't harbor and animosity towards you for posting that. I actually really got a kick out of that post.

I think Jack has alot of money, alot of sales, and alot of power amongst distributors and the mags. But the one thing he really wants and does not have is what i have. That is widespread respect and admiration and guru status amongst the masses - and all the influence that goes along with it. He would kill for that, i know he would. So he hates on me for it.

And personally, i think its a hoot!

[Patrick Arnold]

No offense or disrespect to BB.com but I don't believe the results of the tests that are carried out by them.

BB.com is all about business. Good brands or not. Safe supplements or Steroids. Whatever legal.

BSN is too good a brand for them to ignore and they just wont want the product of their choice to fail label claims. IMHO, whichever product is a cash-cow for them, they would want the same to pass tests, weather bad publicity and come at the top at all costs.

BTW, which are the most trusted and prestegious laboratories out there who undertake these kind of testings?

you get what you pay for with labs.

[Fitsho]

you get what you pay for with labs.

like Ergopharm, we too have labs here on location. However, in this situation, our labs may not be deemed so credible thus forcing us to outsource and send samples to a third party lab. Which we have done...

[Patrick Arnold]

neoborn is a legend, any supp company would be honored to have him on their team.

[fitnfirm]

Awwwwwwww Pat you are learning the evil tricks we do with posts ! Im so proud of you

[dan7681]

Awwwwwwww Pat you are learning the evil tricks we do with posts ! Im so proud of you

they grow up so quick don't they

[Fitsho]

Awwwwwwww Pat you are learning the evil tricks we do with posts ! Im so proud of you

after 5 years it's about time!

[fitnfirm]

after 5 years it's about time!

HAHA ya now if he could just multi-quote .....................

[Patrick Arnold]

after 5 years it's about time!

ha ha

when was the last time you did a fractional distillation?

yeah, i thought so.....

[fitnfirm]

ha ha

when was the last time you did a fractional distillation?

yeah, i thought so.....

I just pee'd a little, does that count ??

[Fitsho]

ha ha

when was the last time you did a fractional distillation?

yeah, i thought so.....

college?

[sixthsense]

Eric is a legend, any supp company would be honored to have him on their team.

Thank you for saying such a thing. I am truly honored and flattered that you feel that way. Very, very kind of you.

[Elliptical Envy]

LMMFAO!

[sixthsense]

I don't harbor and animosity towards you for posting that. I actually really got a kick out of that post.

I think Jack has alot of money, alot of sales, and alot of power amongst distributors and the mags. But the one thing he really wants and does not have is what i have. That is widespread respect and admiration and guru status amongst the masses - and all the influence that goes along with it. He would kill for that, i know he would. So he hates on me for it.

And personally, i think its a hoot!

I appreciate that you hold no animosity toward me. I wanted to make sure you knew those were not MY words, nor are my opinions.

[Thug9]

Apparently not everyone on this board likes me (including the original OP of this very thread). Check out the only Negative Rep I have from this mess. Ha! I just received it a couple minutes ago...

he is a puss that likes to talk that crap on the net, he talked crap and gave me a bad rep haha, too much hate. I guarantee he wouldnt do it in my face, just what i believe in my heart.

[dito]

I just pee'd a little, does that count ??

Were you doing leg presses again?

[fitnfirm]

Were you doing leg presses again?

I hate your elephant like memory

[dito]

Tis a good thing. My memory that is.

[laz]

they had a show on them last night on history channel. they had the aryan nation on a couple of weeks ago

Ever been to North Chicago up north below Waukegan. Holy cowwwwwwwwww.

[1-Testosterone]

you get what you pay for with labs.

I think that answers it all.

[NeoRudyx]

You are categorizing every person who maintains a "real" job in the real world. You cannot do this until you have been in any sort of similar situation.

Again, I have a job to do, and it is not defined as a "company rep." I also have a career that I am trying to build, and having VPX on my resume (whether you think so or not) is a good thing for me.

Shana,

Having VPX on your resume is a great thing because that entry is all because of your work regardless of who you work for.

[Outside backer]

OK so you're not a rep for the entire line but a rep for Meltodown which you praised and reviewed. My point is you do have an affiliation and giving a review on your product is padding the feedback. If the product is good it should speak for itself. If you are a rep for the product post info in the company promo section, answer questions, let none biased people evaluate it.

Looks like you have been through this before
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1200

Also why are you the CEO's voice on the board and not a rep? Eric I have read many of your articles and have learned a lot from you and mean no disrespect but this is not correct here. So you are not an employee per say. Do you get compensated in anyway? a consultant? etc. I feel that with the info you get from VPX and the promo of the products you aren't doing this because you're just a nice guy. Let's get honest here.

man that thread really brought back memories

not of flaming but the talk of m1t 1 test and other ph's as they were so easy as to just walk in a store and get them.

my have times changed

[Nailbomb9]

he is a puss that likes to talk that crap on the net, he talked crap and gave me a bad rep haha, too much hate. I guarantee he wouldnt do it in my face, just what i believe in my heart.

Anybody else tired of the ol" "He wouldn't do that to me in person" tough talk? I think it's ridiculous, especially on the E-net. Talk is "CHEAP"...

[sixthsense]

OK so you're not a rep for the entire line but a rep for Meltodown which you praised and reviewed. My point is you do have an affiliation and giving a review on your product is padding the feedback. If the product is good it should speak for itself. If you are a rep for the product post info in the company promo section, answer questions, let none biased people evaluate it.

Looks like you have been through this before
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1200

Also why are you the CEO's voice on the board and not a rep? Eric I have read many of your articles and have learned a lot from you and mean no disrespect but this is not correct here. So you are not an employee per say. Do you get compensated in anyway? a consultant? etc. I feel that with the info you get from VPX and the promo of the products you aren't doing this because you're just a nice guy. Let's get honest here.

SC...I was very honest from the get go. I am getting compensated for my time as an independent contractor for VPX...just as I currently do from Nutrabolics, Hard, and a few other companies. My time is valuable, so of course I will get compensated.

HOWEVER, at this point in my career I ONLY WORK WITH COMPANIES, OR BACK PRODUCTS THAT I BELIEVE IN AND PROVE THEMSELVES TO ME. I refused to rep Meltdown for VPX UNTIL I USED IT MYSELF AND TESTED IT ON SEVERAL CLIENTS (who knew nothing about the product except that it was a new "fat burner"). Testing it on my clients was essential, because I could pretty much control all variables. I MADE SURE that their diet, training, and cardio remained exactly the same, so if results were had (good or bad), they could be pointed at Meltdown, and not some other factor.

Many companies approach me to rep their products and/or do product write-ups, but I will refuse if I feel their products are not worth anything, or if the company is not reputable.

I was a fan of VPX LONG BEFORE I ever worked for them. I used their products with great success and I was quite vocal about it.

One thing you should know about myself and VPX is that when we parted ways in 2005 IT WAS NOT ON GOOD TERMS. I had a major disagreement with the CEO and chose to walk away. I had every reason to want to BURY the company on the boards as best I could, but I would not! This is because I honestly felt, that although I was not happy with the CEO, that the products were still excellent, and thus I still had to promote them as such.

Eventually I patched things up with Mr. Owoc, and I have consulted with him free of charge on many things. However, when Meltdown came along he really wanted my honest opinion and assessment on the ingredients and on how it worked in the real world. Once I gave him my review, he wanted me to get behind it on the boards, which I was glad to do because IT WORKS!

As far as being his voice on the board in the other thread...THAT IS AN ERROR WHICH I COMPLETELY ADMIT. I SHOULD NOT HAVE POSTED WHAT HE ASKED ME TO, AND SHOULD HAVE LEFT THAT TO HIM, OR SOMEONE THAT IS AN EMPLOYEE OF VPX. The press release was one thing, but I should not have posted his response to PA. Again, a mistake, and I admit it. While I have had my own disagreements with PA in the past, that was the past, and I should not have been the go-between in a personal attack...warranted or not. So I apologize to PA for that (on my behalf, not Jack's).

Jack is a very intelligent, passionate, and well-spoken individual that I have great respect for in many ways, but I think he should come on this board himself if he has something to say. I also wish he would direct his great writing skills and great passion for the industry into more constructive comments. If you ever sat down with him one on one you would see a very different person than you hear about on these boards.

As for Meltdown...if I posted in the wrong section the mods should move it (just like I said in the original post). My comments were not biased...they were honest. As a trainer of athletes from all over the world I cannot afford to be anything but. My reputation amongst the bodybuilding/athletic community...as well as my services as a trainer and coach are the most important things to me, and I will not risk that by bull****ting.

Nuff said.

[Elliptical Envy]

This thread sure is spicy

[Patrick Arnold]

Jack is a very intelligent, passionate, and well-spoken individual that I have great respect for in many ways, but I think he should come on this board himself if he has something to say. I also wish he would direct his great writing skills and great passion for the industry into more constructive comments. If you ever sat down with him one on one you would see a very different person than you hear about on these boards.
.

The first time i ever became aware of Jack was when i saw an ad for VPX that had him and the late Dan Duchaine posing in a picture at a trade show with Jack holding up a bottle of his first liquid prohormone product. the text of the ad suggested that dan duchaine was endorsing the product.

Dan was dead and of course could not protest. I knew dan, and was close with dan's other friends and no one had ever heard dan speak of owoc or speak of giving permission to be used by him for promotional purposes.

When Dan was alive he was very selective when it came to allowing someone to use his image for marketing purposes, and if he did he would justifiably ask to be financially compensated.

I cannot think of too many things lower then what Jack did then. What kind of person would do such a thing?