Milk, the real deal.

**tre14** · 09-21-2002, 04:12 PM

i know this topic has been discussed throughly but im looking for an updated version.

is milk really as good as many people say it is? supposedly lactose is prone to turning into fat more often than not, yet some say it keeps you thin.

what's the real deal with milk these days?

**Luke530** · 09-21-2002, 04:44 PM

yogurt and milk both score low on the glycemic index but score high on the insulin index... therefore, it takes lots of insulin to clear them... but the insulin release is slow (no spike) so it's low on the GI...

here is an article for you to read...

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/insulin.htm

I'll be back later to explain further... I'm busy right now

**tre14** · 09-21-2002, 07:00 PM

jesus christ, cant we get more people in on this?

**Luke530** · 09-21-2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by tre14
jesus christ, cant we get more people in on this?

unfortunately, most peope don't understand this... so what are they going to say... I'll exlain it further... it's just that even though milk does not cause a spike... it releases lots of insulin to clear lactose... and the more insulin you release, the more fat you may tend to store if glycogen stores are full or muscles are not sensitive at the point of consumption...

**tre14** · 09-21-2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Luke530

unfortunately, most peope don't understand this... so what are they going to say... I'll exlain it further... it's just that even though milk does not cause a spike... it releases lots of insulin to clear lactose... and the more insulin you release, the more fat you may tend to store if glycogen stores are full or muscles are not sensitive at the point of consumption...

this may be true but i would like to hear some opposing view points. it's like the arguments about failure; there are valid points on both sides.

**Luke530** · 09-21-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by tre14

this may be true but i would like to hear some opposing view points. it's like the arguments about failure; there are valid points on both sides.

what areguments are there... these are just facts from the insulin index... there is not much to argue... it's been proven like they Glycemic Index... and is used by diabetics....

What argument do you want from someone?

**tre14** · 09-21-2002, 10:39 PM

you got a link to that insulin index guide?

**Luke530** · 09-22-2002, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by tre14
you got a link to that insulin index guide?

there is no guide... there is only a small table i posted above...

at least I don't knowthey have one yet... I'm sure they don't or I would have known about it...

**Luke530** · 09-22-2002, 06:05 AM

go to www.glycemicindex.com search for a food, and on the right... some foods will have an Insulin Index Rating...

**FemaleTeenBBldr** · 09-22-2002, 06:10 PM

hey will drinking 8 oz. of nonfat milk before bed make me fat? the milk i bought is fat free and has 13 grams of sugar...will this sugar turn to fat while i am asleep?

**Luke530** · 09-22-2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by FemaleTeenBBldr
hey will drinking 8 oz. of nonfat milk before bed make me fat? the milk i bought is fat free and has 13 grams of sugar...will this sugar turn to fat while i am asleep?

if your glycogen stores are full, yes

**tre14** · 09-22-2002, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Luke530

if your glycogen stores are full, yes

well.... im still not sold. many people on these boards advocate drinking milk before bed, including str8 whom, like most people, trust a lot.

**Luke530** · 09-22-2002, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by tre14

well.... im still not sold. many people on these boards advocate drinking milk before bed, including str8 whom, like most people, trust a lot.

if glycogen stores are full, any carb will turn to fat...

and if you are not sold on the milk... fine, one glass wont kill ya... I just would not make it a huge part of my diet...

do what you want, you don't have to be sold... I'm just giving you facts.

**Timbo** · 09-22-2002, 08:12 PM

Tre...you seem sold on cow juice being one helluva nutritional asset to your arsenal...so stick with it, bro! If you like it and it's assisting you towards your goals, then just drink it...you asked for some opinions and Skywalker is just doing his damndest to give you his side of the coin, based on some facts. If this is the worst thing that you think you're doing, then you're in damn good shape.

**Luke530** · 09-22-2002, 08:15 PM

LOL, how true... T-Rock to the rescue...

although, this does need further research since the Insulin Index itself needs more research... most are not fimiliar with it...

**Del** · 09-22-2002, 09:40 PM

Interesting article 'bout the insulin index. But how much does insulin effect fat storage?? I mean, lets not forget it shuttles nutrients to fat AND muscle cells. As far as I'm aware, the higher your blood glucose, the more likely that glucos will be shuttled to fat cells. Look at the pros: they inject insulin but try to minimize the amount of carbs they eat afterwards, "slin" is just about the anabolic steroid available... it doesn't quite make sense that a body builder would wanto minimise insulin, perioid. Wouldn't it be best to have as high amount of insulin as possible with lots of protein and minimal blood glucose? (unless you're injecting.... you could kill yourself.)

**Luke530** · 09-23-2002, 12:59 PM

no... you have it wrong... you can get very fat off insulin if you don't use it correctly... pors use insulin during times when muscles are most sensitive to it. if you use it whenever you want... you will just get fat...

insulin is horrible when it comes to fat storage... the more insulin you have the faster the storage will be, and if you muscles are full or not very sensitive to it at the time... you are gonna be growin a belly my friend.

let me put it this way... without insulin, you could not get fat.

pros and people who use it... have to time it correctly.

side effects of insulin abuse are - diabetes, and your pancreas may shut down.

**Del** · 09-23-2002, 02:02 PM

ok... point taken. But then what factor determines whether insulin shuttles nutrients to fat or muscle cells? Also, what I was trying to say was fish isn't nececerrily "bad" becauase it spikes insulin more than other proteins, if one were to eat fish by itself this would be good because the insulin would help get the protein to muscle cells and protein cannot be store in fat.... am I right?

**Luke530** · 09-23-2002, 02:11 PM

without carbs, fish itself would not release insulin. it would be turned into nitrogen in the blood and that would go to muscle cells, and the fats in the fish would give you energy by being oxidized.

what determines where insulin shuttles carbs and nutrients? the time of day your muscles are most sensitive, that is the time most nutrients will go to your muscles (breakfast and post-workout).

**Going4Gain** · 09-23-2002, 04:53 PM

Is there any data on the insulin/glycemic effect of lactose-free milk? It's sweeter-tasting than regular milk because the lactose has already been converted by an enzyme into sugars.

**Luke530** · 09-23-2002, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Going4Gain
Is there any data on the insulin/glycemic effect of lactose-free milk? It's sweeter-tasting than regular milk because the lactose has already been converted by an enzyme into sugars.

I'll look for the answer on that... I'm not sure... I would imagine it's much higer on the glycemic index since lactose is very low-gi and unles it is sweetened with natural fructose (i doubt it) then it's probably pretty high on the glycemic index... I don't know about the insulin index though. regular skim milk or full fat milk are both in the high 90s (98 for skim) on the insulin index but have very low GI.

**Del** · 09-23-2002, 05:59 PM

Umm... I think the article says fish/protein DOES release insulin:

"On average the snack foods produced the highest food group IS, followed by bakery products, carbohydrate-rich foods, fruit, protein rich foods and then breakfast cereals respectively (see figure). The researchers found significant variations in foods of the same food group, so food group alone is not a good predictor of insulin or glucose scores......On average fish produced twice as much insulin secretion as did the equivalent portion of eggs."

Also, lactose has a GI of 65, which I regard as too high while cutting. Anyway, sorry to be anal... I just wanna get my facts right.

**Luke530** · 09-23-2002, 06:05 PM

I though you were talking about the GI...

in the II, they are talking about protein rich foods, but that are consumed with carbs...

you don't really understand it... lots of breakfast cereals have a hi GI and II, plus if you consume milk with it... the total quantity and types of carbs consumed raise the II...

im talking about the II of milk being 98...

the GI of lactose on a 50g. test protion based on the glucose scale is a 43 and a 61 on bread... glucose is the only one that actually matters... anything under a 70 is good on a GI, this has a 43.

on the II it is a 98... not good.

**Luke530** · 09-23-2002, 06:09 PM

protein insulin spike is low, non existant basically, however, it has to shuttle nutrients somehow, so it doe srelease insulin... now, protein is different than carbs because if muscles don't absrob it, it does not go directly to adipose... it must etiher be converted to glucose first or it is excreted through blood urea nitrogen... depending on your metabolism and current time of day and diet, your body may do either... once it converts it to glucose and it is not used however... it will be turned to fat...

when muscles arenot sensitive to insulin... lots of insulin must be released for one, and two, much of it will go to adipose... this is why both insulin spikes and large inulin releases are bad...

**Del** · 09-23-2002, 08:34 PM

ok... got it. But I hope they figure this stuff out properly ASAP.

**Timbo** · 09-23-2002, 09:23 PM

Wow, I've missed a lot in just a day! Dayum!

Luke...you make some great points, bro...but I do need to correct you on the protein and insulin response...protein (certain amino) acids do incite an insulin release...however, in the absence of carbs (or fats), this protein will be oxidized for energy most likely (which in itself is not a good thing either.

If the carbohydrate in foods is broken down into glucose very rapidly and the rate of appearance is great, then the insulin response will be drastic...the role of insulin is to clear the blood of glucose...obviously muscle and liver can only store so much glucose as glycogen, and can only do so at a limited rate, as receptors become saturated...so if glycogen stores are full and/or receptors for insulin on the muscle/liver are saturated, some blood glucose will be shuttled by insulin to adipose tissue (which also has receptors for insulin). However, realize that it takes a lot of carbs, and bad ones, over an extended period, to really accumulate adipose. However, with consistently elevated levels of insulin you totally shut off lipolysis and fatty acid oxidation.

And, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT, do you want to have chronically elevated levels of insulin...as Luke, my man, states, this is a primary characteristic of type II diabetics...you want to be sensitive to insulin, baby! By that I mean, you want your body to have to secrete less insulin for a given load of blood glucose and/or increased insulin receptors (preferably on the muscle). How to do this? Well, you'll just have to wait:-)

**Luke530** · 09-24-2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Timbo
Wow, I've missed a lot in just a day! Dayum!

Luke...you make some great points, bro...but I do need to correct you on the protein and insulin response...protein (certain amino) acids do incite an insulin release...however, in the absence of carbs (or fats), this protein will be oxidized for energy most likely (which in itself is not a good thing either.

yeah... you have missed quite a day...

I new aminos could elicit an insulin response... I just was not exactly sure how... I was kind of thinking how would protein get into muscles without insulin... now is it because if you ingest an all protein meal, some of it will be converted to glucose to shuttle then non-converted protein into muscles?

also, if you do not need protein at a certain point in time, it may very well be excreted through urine (blood urea nitrogen)

glutamine itself can give a nice insulin spike im sure... this is why it's good to take with a 50/50 mix of malto/dextrose post-workout.

Timbo... you know way too much, you are outta my league bro...

**Del** · 09-24-2002, 02:07 PM

damn it! just when you think you know all you need to know some pesky sceintist come up with some unconclusive but disturbing insulin study. My old mans a medical researcher, I'm gonna ask him about this and do some more research...

**Luke530** · 09-24-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Del
damn it! just when you think you know all you need to know some pesky sceintist come up with some unconclusive but disturbing insulin study. My old mans a medical researcher, I'm gonna ask him about this and do some more research...

it's not unconclusive... just new... but it's a fact... I'm still not sure what you don't understand...

**EricS** · 09-24-2002, 06:40 PM

the only thing I didn't agree with is the point about gaining fat if your glycogen levels are full. This is not nesesarily the case. fat mobilization and utilization rates are dependant on a number of factors, not just glycogen levels. And you are making the mistake of thinking that fat accumulation is a static proceedure.

You have to remember that fat is being burned and stored all day every day, it is the net amount of fat tht is oxidized or lack there of that will result in gains of fat.

in other words, the bottom line to fat loss is calorie deficit, regardless if those caloreis come from protein or carbs.

Because lets face it, bodybuilder's, who aren't dieting for a contest, will rearely ever deplete their glycogen stores if ever. And if there were a time that they ever did it would be after a work out and that when most will slam down huge amounts of carbs anyway.

Thread: Milk, the real deal.

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Milk, the real deal.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions