Classical Pianist Seeks Finger-Strengthening Advice

[jerrys88]

Hello Bodybuilding Forum members - this is my first post here.

I am a dedicated advanced amateur Classical pianist. After many years of struggling to improve my ability to play piano at a high technical level, I have come to the realization that the foundation of a virtouso piano technique is an extremely high level of individual finger strength, including what are naturally weak fingers, namely the ring-finger (4th) and pinky (5th). I am posting here because I'd like to know if there are lessons I can draw upon from body-building science that I can apply to my piano practicing.

One of the most significant discoveries I've made recently is the power of isolation exercises. Typically, pianists spend hours playing "pattern" exercises, such as "Hanon Exercises," which are similar to drumming the fingers on a table-top, repeating a given pattern while moving up and down the keyboard; or etudes, which are actual pieces of music that call upon the weaker fingers to work consistently throughout. These are not what I consider "isolation" exercises, since while each individual finger plays, the whole hand and body is free to move and contribute to the action of pushing down individual notes. Thus, one can think one is developing individual finger strength, when in actuality one is relying on varying degrees in combination of finger-activation, arm weight, and/or forearm rotation. The isolation exercises I refer to are exercises in which one or more fingers are held down, while the remaining fingers play in varying patterns, thus "forcing" the individual fingers to be moved without the aid of arm weight or rotation. The results I've obtained by practicing these forms of exercises have been astonishing and incomparably more effective (leading me to believe that effortlessness is a byproduct of strength), but I still have questions about exercising in general.

Please note - I am fully aware that the muscles that move the individual fingers are NOT in the fingers, thus when I speak of developing individual finger strength I mean developing the muscles that move the individual finger - wherever they are (mosly in the forearm, I believe).

My questions to you body-builders are these:

1) Are there different KINDS of strength? I ask this because it doesn't really require alot of strength to push down a piano key, and not a lot of strength to move one's finger, and yet if one tries to play a note with, say, the 4th (ring) finger in isolation (hold down the other fingers while trying to tap the 4th strongly on a table top), one will see that the finger is "weak." Is this just plain-vanilla muscle weakness? I am aware that strength building is only one side of the coin - the other is simply developing the brain-finger reflex connection to an extremely high level, another thing that isolation exercises is excellent at.

2) What matters more - amount of repetitions, or how much power one puts into each finger stroke? If power is more important, then is striking the note as hard as one can what is called for? Do you think there is any benefit to be gotten from pressing into the key after the strike, contracting the muscles responsible for the action?

3) Do you think that the LIFTING of the finger is important to exercise also?

4) Is there an optimal amount of time to spend on exercises, and how does one determine that?

5) I've read about the benefits of working muscles hard one day and resting them the next. Does this apply to what I'm talking about? What would be an optimal schedule? Exercising every other day? Exercise one day, then rest for SEVERAL days? Vice-versa? What is the optimal ratio of work:rest?

6) Many pianists injure themselves trying to develop the kind of finger strength I am referring to. I believe it is because they somehow over-train or train in unhealthy ways. What guidelines would you recommend to avoid injury?

7) This relates to number 6. Does good, effective and efficient exercising involve any sensation of pain? Of course I am not referring to a level of pain that is obviously indicative of injury, but rather the kind of dull pain one might experience when exercising PROPERLY - it's hard for me to describe. Is there such a thing? Is it essential? If so, how does one know how hard to push and when to stop?

8) Are there things you know about exercising that I haven't even thought to ask that might improve my exercise effiency?

Well, I don't really expect any replies to this very off-beat post, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. I just think there is a lot of athleticism to playing a musical instrument. I embrace that aspect of playing as a means to mastering the instrument and being able to play great music, and I want to learn as much about it as I can. Any replies will be most greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[jdmalm123]

Very interesting post! My mother was a classical floutist (offered 2nd chair with Leonard Bernstein in the early 70's). Anyway, your questions...

1. The main types of strength are raw strength (how much you can lift), power (factors in velocity, how quickly you can lift a weight) and muscular endurance (how long you can maintain muscular work without fatigue). Increased resistance is used to train raw strength, speed work is used to train power and repetition/volume is used to train endurance. Your right in stating that neuromuscular (brain:muscle) connection plays a major role in fingering keys. The body tends to find the most metabolically and mechanically simple way to do work. It doesn't want to isolate fingers b/c it's harder and less efficient. Your past training techniques would illustrate that. I think isloating fingers with drills and even resisitance would be helpful, but you have to maintain your skill work as well. You will lose dexterity and make your finger action unproportional for playing piano if your only goal is to even out individual finger performance.

2. That's where your art comes in. You know that key strike and pressure affects the timbre and duration of a note.

3. Yes, opposing muscle groups need to be maintained in balance for health. If finger/forearm extensors or flexors are not balance, it will become pain, weakness or other limitation in the hand, wrist or forearm.

4. Time spent has to do with goals, but, in general, effective exercise is brief and intense with adequate rest/recovery between session. A slow, steady increase in volume and resistance is advisable. Try adding one finger strengthening session per week and keep doing all your other practice. Also, keep the resistance lower than you think might be optimal. It's always better to err on the side of under-doing it. Start with one rubber band or similar and then slowly progress.

5. See my answer to #4.

6. See #4 and keep in mind that you intuitively know what is too much. Yes, you have to push just a tiny bit past your current thresh hold, but not much. Let's say you do 10 reps with one rubber band and the next few days there is no negative impact on your playing. Next week, try 12 reps, then 14, then 16, etc. Once you feel you could do a high number of reps, add a rubber band and go back to 10 reps and start the progression over. It may feel tediously slow, but working out is a lifetime pursuit just like perfecting your playing.

7. Fatigue, momentary ache, slight "burning," feeling a muscular "pump," etc. are all expected with normal exercise. Working through pain is ill-advised. Fingers and their related muscles are relatively small and would have a low capacity for added work. Slow build-up is critical.

8. Think preventatively. RICE your hands after a session. Sleep well and eat well. Take notes on the details of your sessions. Over a long-term program, plan in rest periods. Once every 4-8 weeks, skip a session.

[jerrys88]

Thank you so much for your response, jdmalm123.

I really appreciate your explanation of the different types of strength - that explains the confusion I had - I think I am trying to develop POWER, not STRENGTH. That makes so much sense!

I find it interesting that you say that "speed work" is what develops power. I guess that would mean that when I am practicing these isolated finger movements I should try to make each finger movement as quick as I can, yes? Very interesting! Endurance plays a role, too, I think, so I guess I increase that by slowly increasing length of my exercise sessions. Your comments are very enlightening!

Regarding how hard I strike the key, I really only asked in relation to how it would effect the build-up of strength (power). In doing these exercises I am not so concerned about musical matters - building up maximum power I believe will give me the ability to play at all levels of volume and speed. I think you answered my question when you stated that "speed work" is what builds power. In this case, speed just happens to translate into louder volume.

I'm afraid I'm a little confused by these two statements you made: "...in general, effective exercise is brief and intense with adequate rest/recovery between session." and " Over a long-term program, plan in rest periods. Once every 4-8 weeks, skip a session." The first comment I would interpret to mean, say, a day of exercise, a day or two of rest, but the second comment seems to imply it would be OK to exercise 4-8 weeks without skipping a day. Can you clarify this for me? I have been practicing my exercises on average about 5 days a week (one half-hour session each day), resting the other two days a week.

I am a little confused by your comment about steadily and slowly increasing volume AND resistance. I understand increasing volume, i.e. the length of my exercise sessions. However, I think resistence training is not really what I'm after if resistence is usefull for developing, as you put it, RAW strength, is it? Would you not agree that what I'm really trying to develop is POWER, not RAW strength? Or do you think I should ALSO be developing strength? If so, can you explain what you mean by the use of rubber bands? I'm not familiar with that. Can you explain what it means to RICE one's hands? I'm not familiar with that either.

Thank you for clarifying this issue of "fatigue, momentary ache, slight "burning," (OK) vs. working though pain (Not OK). That is also very helpful.

I really appreciate your comments, jdmalm123 - they are just what I was looking for. Thank you, again.

[mroth86]

Probably work on your grip strength. I will provide a few things..in gymnastics we have to be able to hold onto bars extremely strong, so grip strength is pretty important.

1) take newspaper you don't care about and won't care if it gets ruined. One page at a time, put your palm down on one corner and crumple it up. Do this for the whole paper

2) Towel pullups. Find a pullup bar and drape 2 towels over it with enough room to grab. Grab a towl with each hand and pull up. This relies on your fingers and wrists. They are pretty tiresome after awhile, so I'd say for you, just do a small handful of them per day (5 to 10). If you cannot pull yourself up like that, then just practice hanging on them for like 5 to 10 seconds at a time.

3) go to a rock climbing wall. They have amazing finger strength (one of the most famous french rock climbers can do a full chinup on ONE FINGER)

[bthom65]

I'm afraid I'm a little confused by these two statements you made: "...in general, effective exercise is brief and intense with adequate rest/recovery between session." and " Over a long-term program, plan in rest periods. Once every 4-8 weeks, skip a session." The first comment I would interpret to mean, say, a day of exercise, a day or two of rest, but the second comment seems to imply it would be OK to exercise 4-8 weeks without skipping a day. Can you clarify this for me? I have been practicing my exercises on average about 5 days a week (one half-hour session each day), resting the other two days a week.

in a lifting program you usually dont lift every day of the week so you are taking planned rest days during the week, the second implies skipping a planned workout day if you are a little sore every 4-8 weeks. at least thats what I got out of it

[jerrys88]

Probably work on your grip strength. I will provide a few things..in gymnastics we have to be able to hold onto bars extremely strong, so grip strength is pretty important.

1) take newspaper you don't care about and won't care if it gets ruined. One page at a time, put your palm down on one corner and crumple it up. Do this for the whole paper

2) Towel pullups. Find a pullup bar and drape 2 towels over it with enough room to grab. Grab a towl with each hand and pull up. This relies on your fingers and wrists. They are pretty tiresome after awhile, so I'd say for you, just do a small handful of them per day (5 to 10). If you cannot pull yourself up like that, then just practice hanging on them for like 5 to 10 seconds at a time.

3) go to a rock climbing wall. They have amazing finger strength (one of the most famous french rock climbers can do a full chinup on ONE FINGER)

Thank you for your reply mroth86 - those sound like very clever exercises, indeed, for strengthening grip. From reading jdmalm123's reponse, however, it seems to me now that what I am after is more POWER (velocity) rather than raw STRENGTH, but then, I wonder if I should be developing both, in which case your suggestions are much appreciated - perhaps jdmalm123 will clarify that for me. I always wondered about the exact KIND of strength I need to develop because, as I said in my original post, it doesn't take much (raw) strength to push down a key, or to move a finger.

[jdmalm123]

You are most welcome. I think you came with a well-prepared question and already absorbed what I said. Let me elaborate on strength vs power with the example of the rubber band as resistance.

Strength is without regard to time. You could flex your finger against the rubber band and take all day to complete a single repetition. No one could argue your strength in that. Power is performing the same work quickly (hence speed work). So, you would have to move your finger as quickly as possible against that reisistance to establish your power for the move. Once you can move it more quickly, you could state your power has increased even though the weight (and your strength) is the same.

I'm sure you already see how strength, power and endurance are inextricably intertwined. More power will assist with improving strength and a strength athlete would often reduce working poundages and try to move lighter weights faster as one training method. Of course, endurance is always there as a background to strength and endurance.

Your goal would be to imporve power but also maintain and improve your dexterity, accuracy and control. If you check youtube for olympic lifting vids, you'll see many reltively small people moving heavy weights quickly and precisely. They don't just heave a weight roughly. In the hands of the pros, the movement of the bar follows a path that varies only millimeters with each heavy rep. So, as the weight reaches an apex, the lifter is in total control. You should be able to max power while still being able to control strike (volume).

"The first comment I would interpret to mean, say, a day of exercise, a day or two of rest" YES, exactly!

"but the second comment seems to imply it would be OK to exercise 4-8 weeks without skipping a day. Can you clarify this for me?"
4-8 weeks at a frequency of 1 time per week

I am a little confused by your comment about steadily and slowly increasing volume AND resistance. I understand increasing volume, i.e. the length of my exercise sessions. Volume is the sum of all training variables (weight, reps, sets, etc)

However, I think resistence training is not really what I'm after if resistence is usefull for developing strength, is it? Would you not agree that what I'm really trying to develop is power, not strength? Or do you think I should ALSO be developing strength? If so, can you explain what you mean by the use of rubber bands? I'm not familiar with that. Can you explain what it means to RICE one's hands? I'm not familiar with that either.

some resistance is required, but you would not necessarily have to keep adding resistance to improve power (until you adapted and needed more power). Some (adequate?) strength will come with the power.

As for the rubber bands, picture your self sitting at the piano with your hands poised above the keys. You would need resistance against the downward press of each finger which rubber bands might provide. It would be like you're a marionette with each finger on a string, but you impose your will on the string instead of the opposite.

RICE is a sports therapy acronym for Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate

[JTrain306]

and yet if one tries to play a note with, say, the 4th (ring) finger in isolation (hold down the other fingers while trying to tap the 4th strongly on a table top), one will see that the finger is "weak." Is this just plain-vanilla muscle weakness?

This relates to your tendons - your 3rd (middle) and 4th finger are closely connected. Hold down the other 3 fingers, but keep your 3rd finger raised and you'll notice a dramatic improvement in the capabilities of the 4th finger. Conversely, tuck your 3rd finger back so that the top half is pressed against the table top - now try to move your 4th finger...... it won't budge.

[mroth86]

Thank you for your reply mroth86 - those sound like very clever exercises, indeed, for strengthening grip. From reading jdmalm123's reponse, however, it seems to me now that what I am after is more POWER (velocity) rather than raw STRENGTH, but then, I wonder if I should be developing both, in which case your suggestions are much appreciatted - perhaps jdmalm123 will clarify that for me. I always wondered about the exact KIND of strength I need to develop because, as I said in my original post, it doesn't take much (raw) strength to push down a key, or to move a finger.

Personally, I've been playing guitar for the last 9 years and play a lot of blues and jazz that require a lot of speed and precision. These have helped me a lot personally.

If you just want speed in your fingers, and power, my personal advice would be to strengthen your forearms, wrists, and fingers.

[jerrys88]

This relates to your tendons - your 3rd (middle) and 4th finger are closely connected. Hold down the other 3 fingers, but keep your 3rd finger raised and you'll notice a dramatic improvement in the capabilities of the 4th finger. Conversely, tuck your 3rd finger back so that the top half is pressed against the table top - now try to move your 4th finger...... it won't budge.

Good point, Davtown - a phenomenon that pianists are very well aware of. In fact, believe it or not there are those who discourage the development of individual finger movement altogether, especially the 4th finger, for this very reason. There have been several schools of playing that offer all sorts of alternative ways to play - mostly relying heavily on transfering weight from finger to finger or rotating the forearm, all while keeping actual finger movement to a minimum - none of which will ever lead to a high level of playing. Experience and common sense dictate, however, that despite this anatomical challenge, one MUST develop each individual finger's ability to move on it's own to the fullest. Just as ballet dancers where not born walking on their toes, musicians must develop abilities that are in a sense "unnatural." All the more reason to go about it wisely, slowly, and carefully to avoid injury.

[jerrys88]

Strength is without regard to time. You could flex your finger against the rubber band and take all day to complete a single repetition. No one could argue your strength in that. Power is performing the same work quickly (hence speed work). So, you would have to move your finger as quickly as possible against that reisistance to establish your power for the move. Once you can move it more quickly, you could state your power has increased even though the weight (and your strength) is the same.

I'm sure you already see how strength, power and endurance are inextricably intertwined.

...

some resistance is required, but you would not necessarily have to keep adding resistance to improve power (until you adapted and needed more power). Some (adequate?) strength will come with the power.

As for the rubber bands, picture your self sitting at the piano with your hands poised above the keys. You would need resistance against the downward press of each finger which rubber bands might provide. It would be like you're a marionette with each finger on a string, but you impose your will on the string instead of the opposite.

More really interesting comments, jdmalm123.

In an attempt to strengthen his fingers, the composer Robert Schumann famously used a contraption that I believe resembles the rubber band model you envision, but he wound up damaging himself in some way to the point where he could no longer play, so I would be very cautious about introducing an outside agent to provide resisitence. On the other hand, the concept may indeed have merit, and he may have caused himself harm simply by doing it in excess or in a flawed way. I believe the condition he developed was what we now call focal dystonia, which is not really a physical injury at all, but rather a neurological breakdown of the brain-muscle connection - I have to investigate the story more thoroughly. On the OTHER other hand, none of the greatest pianists throughout history have resorted to using an outside form of resistence, so I know that one should be able to attain the highest level of technical proficiency without it. On the OTHER OTHER other hand (I'm beginning to feel like an alien - three hands!) the idea is intruiging as an efficiency booster.

[TexAss]

I didn't read everything in here but noticed wanting to strengthen ring & pinky fingers.

Try the IMTUGs from Ironmind.

You can also concentrate on using those two fingers for everyday tasks, opening doors, lifting stuff, etc.

[jerrys88]

I didn't read everything in here but noticed wanting to strengthen ring & pinky fingers.

Try the IMTUGs from Ironmind.

You can also concentrate on using those two fingers for everyday tasks, opening doors, lifting stuff, etc.

Thank you for that information, Mozelstein. This forum is such a great resource - I really appreciate everyone's comments. Again, I'm not sure just how much "raw strength" vs. "power" I need to develop, but if resistence does play a role, then this could be something I would want to check out. In fact, I suppose by working up SPEED while using such a device I'd be developing both simultaneously. Very interesting. I wonder if resistence can be adjusted on these - I'll check it out.

[MISSINGLINK]

I am glad I could get in on the ground floor of this one.

[canyonracerx]

I second rock climbing and/or climbing walls. I've been climbing (mainly bouldering) for about 6 months and my fingers have never been stronger.

[TexAss]

Thank you for that information, Mozelstein. This forum is such a great resource - I really appreciate everyone's comments. Again, I'm not sure just how much "raw strength" vs. "power" I need to develop, but if resistence does play a role, then this could be something I would want to check out. In fact, I suppose by working up SPEED while using such a device I'd be developing both simultaneously. Very interesting. I wonder if resistence can be adjusted on these - I'll check it out.

The IMTUGs are a set resistance but you can purchase harder ones.

I'd also stress, as a grip enthusiast/climber, don't neglect your extensors. Imbalances will end up being big trouble.

[dubano]

i haven't read the whole post but


one thing i know is nothing build finger strength same as climbing...

go climb on a synthetic climb wall twice a week and your finger strength will explode thought the roof

p.s
my dad was climber and when he was 24, he could bend 10 cm long steel bolt easily

[mroth86]

I like the rubber band idea. I used to do this when i had a rubber band around and was multitasking. Put your fingers in a string rubber band and just flex outwards for a little while. I remember it did make my fingers a little fatigued

But I also suggest getting your wrists and forearms stronger as well..

[jdmalm123]

I second rock climbing and/or climbing walls. I've been climbing (mainly bouldering) for about 6 months and my fingers have never been stronger.

I don't know...I've rockclimbed too, but I still can't play piano!

JERRYS88: I'm gonna maybe take some pics of fingers+rubberbands and get back to you...

[canyonracerx]

I don't know...I've rockclimbed too, but I still can't play piano!

JERRYS88: I'm gonna maybe take some pics of fingers+rubberbands and get back to you...

That's why I'm a drummer. I hit cowskins with sticks. A caveman could do it.

[jdmalm123]

That's why I'm a drummer. I hit cowskins with sticks. A caveman could do it.

Hey, that's copy-write protected! (yes, geico rep)

[jerrys88]

JERRYS88: I'm gonna maybe take some pics of fingers+rubberbands and get back to you...

I certainly don't expect you to, jdmalm123, but if you do get around to it that would be great.

I didn't read everything in here but noticed wanting to strengthen ring & pinky fingers.

Try the IMTUGs from Ironmind.

I did a little investigating online today and found that guitarists are fond of a device called the gripmaster, which is similar to the IMTUG except that it has separate pads and springs for each finger. I picked one up at a music store this afternoon and will experiment with it.

i haven't read the whole post but one thing i know is nothing build finger strength same as climbing...

go climb on a synthetic climb wall twice a week and your finger strength will explode thought the roof

To those who are recommending rock climbing - I'm afraid my schedule would allow me to do such a thing so infrequently that it would not be a viable way for me to exercise. I'm also beginning to think, from what I've learned from other responses here, that it may be better at developing a kind of strength different from the kind I need for my purposes, but I appreciate the suggestions.

[jdmalm123]

These pics seem simpler than I imagined but...

The closer to the tip of the finger, the greater the resistance (lever). Also, distance between working hand and other hand affects tension. You can mess with those variables for a long time before you consider adding a 2nd rubber band.

Focus on rapid, powerful and accurate strikes. Might as well do them at the keyboard.

[jerrys88]

These pics seem simpler than I imagined but...

The closer to the tip of the finger, the greater the resistance (lever). Also, distance between working hand and other hand affects tension. You can mess with those variables for a long time before you consider adding a 2nd rubber band.

Focus on rapid, powerful and accurate strikes. Might as well do them at the keyboard.

Thank you so much, jdmalm123 - I never thought of anything like what your photos show, and from a scientific standpoint I can't see why it would not be beneficial. The only other experience I've had that is similar, in a way, is practicing on a piano with a particularly hard action, which I always thought was a good way to develop strength (power). This would give me the option of creating additional resistance whether I'm practicing on a piano with a light action or even away from a piano. I also like that one can control and fine tune the amount of resistence easily by using thinner or thicker rubber bands, one or more bands, and by changing the placement. Thank you so much for all your very informative comments, jdmalm123.

[jdmalm123]

Glad to help.
As a backup, just play everything by Erik Satie.

Send a message with your results after you train for a month or so.

[jerrys88]

Focus on rapid, powerful and accurate strikes. Might as well do them at the keyboard.

jdmalm123 - this is one of the most illuminating comments you made in this entire thread, and I almost missed it's full implication. At first I thought, "rapid, powerful and accurate," - oh, he means to practice Prestissimo (musician-speak for "really fast") and Fortissimo (really loud). But what you are describing is not Prestissimo but Staccatissimo! (notes are played extremely separated and distinct, like quick jabs). That is REALLY interesting - I would have NEVER thought of that, jdmalm123, and there is a world of difference. In fact, one can practice Staccatissimo and Slowly (with more space between each note) at the same time, so Tempo has much less to do with building power than I would have ever thought (except that you are able to do more reps in a shorter amount of time). How fascinating. I can't believe how much I've learned in this thread.

Send a message with your results after you train for a month or so.

I will, jdmalm123. As I said, developing power in some fingers is, in a sense, unnatural - particularly the 4th and 5th fingers, as certain fingers share tendons and nerves and are not designed to work separately, so this work must be done very cautiously, slowly, and in great moderation. Thank you once again for all your valuable comments.

[heidt410]

Check out the "GripMaster"...its a simple sqeezing device that I got at a climbing shop...it is different than others because it isolates each finger seperately....you can order one from www.campmor.com pretty cheap...

[jerrys88]

Check out the "GripMaster"...its a simple sqeezing device that I got at a climbing shop...it is different than others because it isolates each finger seperately....you can order one from www.campmor.com pretty cheap...

Thanks for the suggestion, heidt410 - I actually bought one 2 days ago and am experimenting with it. Despite its having separate keypads for each finger, or perhaps because of it, it's a little hard to isolate individual fingers, especially the 4th and 5th fingers - mostly because there is no way to fully stabilize the non-stroking fingers, but I'm thinking I may just have to learn how to use it. In fact, I'm wondering if there are ways to immobolize the springs under some keypads while allowing others to operate. I think that may be an improvement in its design.

[mroth86]

oh man, someone mentioned the grip master. I never used it, but I've heard it helps a little bit. To be honest though...Jerrys, you should try newspaper crumbling I mentioned earlier. As well as...squeeze a tennis ball a little bit like a stress ball. That should get your wrists into it..rubbing band helps too

Anyway, think about this though. Let's say you want to get your arms stronger. You may do curls as a novice right? But you also need to do your shoulders to have the support, and your back, etc. My point is that if you want to get your fingers stronger and faster, you will need support. What is attached to that? your wrist. What's attached to the wrist? forearm.

I think you should get your your fingers, wrists, AND forearms stronger for this. Believe me, as a guitar player at least, this stuff helps in my speed and accuracy as I play blues, jazz, or metal.

[jerrys88]

I hadn't thought of that, mroth86. Considering that strength and power do go hand in hand (no pun intended), I can see how strengthening overall grip power may be helpful. Your comments about building wrist and forearm strength are also food for thought. I especially like the newspaper crumpling exercise - I work for a newspaper, so I've got access to all the paper I need (Won't my employers be thrilled to see me crumpling our papers page by page during downtime!).