Putting Mike Mentzers HIT to the test

DRush · 10-02-2005, 03:01 PM

I have read alot of about Mentzer on this site with people pro and against his training ideas.But one glaring detail is anyone actually posting results of them being on the workout. I just purchased his latest book HIT the Mike Mentzer Way and was very impressed by his training methods and ideas. But A little background on myself. Im not a newbie starting to workout. I as many here have hit a sticking point in training, being that im not growing in size or strength anymore.I have switched my training around many times.More days, different splits, more sets, different excersises, adding excercises,supersets etc. So even though I , after reading the Mike mentzer book, find it hard to workout every 3-7 days Im going to try it out full bore.I will post my starting measurements since I have been on the workout almost 2 weeks now.

Arms Before 17 2/8 Now17 5/8 (all measured cold)
Thighs before 26 1/2 now 26 7/8
Chest before 46 1/2 now 47

Weights have gone up tremendously
I used to be able to do 20 45LB plates on the leg press for 6-7 up 1 sec down 2.Now Im doing 16 45lb plates with super strict form 16 reps with a 4 second negative with a 1 second pause at the bottom and 2 sec up. I am still feeling out the weights, and feel stronger at every workout, but it is tough mentally to go Hi intensity especially with leg training.

Im incline benching 225 for 12 with as before 4 sec negative 1 sec pause at bottom and 2 secs up. Before I could only muster 185 for 8

I cannot compare the arm excersises because I was doing 8 reps each arm with 55lb dumbells in strict form. Now for arms I do the reverse grip pulldowns with 165lb for 11 with the same 4 sec negative 1 sec pause at the bottom and 2 sec down. At this point I am still feeling out the weights to see what I can max out to. After the 165 set I felt I could have done more weight as with the leg presses.

One of the things maybe most who havent tried the HIT but debunk its effectiveness is the fact of the 4 sec negatives the 1 sec pause at contraction and the 2 sec push/ pull depending on excercise. This is what makes the excercise so intense.Im breathing heavily, and can feel my heart pumping. The funny thing with HIT though with the 4 sec neg and the pause and 2 secs up if the fact the mind fights it all the way.The body tries to resist,and I feel this pushing my body to "no mans land" contributes to the overall results of the routine. I never felt this way doing volume.I feel that if I had tried to train this way while doing volume I would overtrain in a week easily.

In comparing to how I used to train,I feel the time the weight is actually being lifted up and down during the hit routine is actually the time it takes most people to do 2-3 sets in volume training.But I will see how this pans out and will post my progress as I go along. But here are my stats :

I have been training almost 4 years regularly, My Age is 28 My height is 6ft and my bodyweight is 220 Im at 12% bf.

My overall opinion at this point is I like what I see with the tape measure and what I see with the weights, I still cannot get used to the time off between routines but I am getting used to the idea having a life outside the gym and seeing results. But all in all It is still early to tell.I think a full 6-8 weeks of this will be a good yardstick of measurement to see if the routine holds water or not.

LaggingBiceps · 10-02-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

I have read alot of about Mentzer on this site with people pro and against his training ideas.But one glaring detail is anyone actually posting results of them being on the workout. I just purchased his latest book HIT the Mike Mentzer Way and was very impressed by his training methods and ideas. But A little background on myself. Im not a newbie starting to workout. I as many here have hit a sticking point in training, being that im not growing in size or strength anymore.I have switched my training around many times.More days, different splits, more sets, different excersises, adding excercises,supersets etc. So even though I , after reading the Mike mentzer book, find it hard to workout every 3-7 days Im going to try it out full bore.I will post my starting measurements since I have been on the workout almost 2 weeks now.

Arms Before 17 2/8 Now17 5/8 (all measured cold)
Thighs before 26 1/2 now 26 7/8
Chest before 46 1/2 now 47

Weights have gone up tremendously
I used to be able to do 20 45LB plates on the leg press for 6-7 up 1 sec down 2.Now Im doing 16 45lb plates with super strict form 16 reps with a 4 second negative with a 1 second pause at the bottom and 2 sec up. I am still feeling out the weights, and feel stronger at every workout, but it is tough mentally to go Hi intensity especially with leg training.

Im incline benching 225 for 12 with as before 4 sec negative 1 sec pause at bottom and 2 secs up. Before I could only muster 185 for 8

I cannot compare the arm excersises because I was doing 8 reps each arm with 55lb dumbells in strict form. Now for arms I do the reverse grip pulldowns with 165lb for 11 with the same 4 sec negative 1 sec pause at the bottom and 2 sec down. At this point I am still feeling out the weights to see what I can max out to. After the 165 set I felt I could have done more weight as with the leg presses.

One of the things maybe most who havent tried the HIT but debunk its effectiveness is the fact of the 4 sec negatives the 1 sec pause at contraction and the 2 sec push/ pull depending on excercise. This is what makes the excercise so intense.Im breathing heavily, and can feel my heart pumping. The funny thing with HIT though with the 4 sec neg and the pause and 2 secs up if the fact the mind fights it all the way.The body tries to resist,and I feel this pushing my body to "no mans land" contributes to the overall results of the routine. I never felt this way doing volume.I feel that if I had tried to train this way while doing volume I would overtrain in a week easily.

In comparing to how I used to train,I feel the time the weight is actually being lifted up and down during the hit routine is actually the time it takes most people to do 2-3 sets in volume training.But I will see how this pans out and will post my progress as I go along. But here are my stats :

I have been training almost 4 years regularly, My Age is 28 My height is 6ft and my bodyweight is 220 Im at 12% bf.

My overall opinion at this point is I like what I see with the tape measure and what I see with the weights, I still cannot get used to the time off between routines but I am getting used to the idea having a life outside the gym and seeing results. But all in all It is still early to tell.I think a full 6-8 weeks of this will be a good yardstick of measurement to see if the routine holds water or not.

im thinking of trying HIT one day. how do your workouts go?

DRush · 10-02-2005, 04:08 PM

I actually question the workout,because Im in and out of the gym so fast.If you were a beginner and were very new /unsure about how to do the excercises i give it 30-40 minutes tops and that is pushing it to do each routine. Since I know the excersises, the correct form and how to do them im in and out of the gym in under 25 minutes. They routine goes quick but the workout is very intense, like I posted before the hardest part is pushing to that HI intesity level.It is a very tough thing to overcome. When you are doing the excercises it is tough when you are doing the 4 sec negative, the body is screaming to hurry the hell up, you just want to rush through it, but you have to fight back the urge and concentrate and not get to excited. This is especiall tough when doing legs, for me anyway.But all in all the routine are pretty basic and you go through them pretty fast. Like I said I you will question the routine when you first start it. You will say what the hell kind of routine is this, this is not enough sets. I say this because I always trained using volume training.But the tape measure doesnt lie, Im gaining size and strength. So I assume it works. I want to give it at least 6- 8weeks, since I want to rule out if I was overtraining with my last routine, which was 3 days a week routine for mass which consisted of basic multijoint excercises, it was a full body routine. We will see.

Ron Schwarz · 10-02-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

I actually question the workout,because Im in and out of the gym so fast.

Actual time spent in the gym is not correlated to results.

Can you post your actual routine? I'm interested to see what you are doing. I'm a HIT guy, but I don't use Mentzer's system. My style is much more in line with Dr. Ken Leistner and Rob Spector's approaches.

MoreMuscle · 10-02-2005, 04:49 PM

I just started HIT today also after being lost in HVT land for a while. I've done HIT before and experienced the best gains of my life, but got back into HVT because, as you said, it is very tough mentally. I'm back now though. I would be really interested to see your program in detail as well. Good luck!

LaggingBiceps · 10-02-2005, 04:59 PM

i do a sort of HIT (I think) you do 1 exercise to failure then superset with another then do a drop set. wait 3 min, do the third exercise with a drop set and ur done with the bodypart.

idk how the original HIT goes though

Ron Schwarz · 10-02-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreMuscle

I just started HIT today also after being lost in HVT land for a while. I've done HIT before and experienced the best gains of my life, but got back into HVT because, as you said, it is very tough mentally. I'm back now though. I would be really interested to see your program in detail as well. Good luck!

Some tips about this:
1. Take periodic layoffs. Don't train for 7-10 days every 4-5 months or so. You will recharge this way, and you won't lose any real muscle mass/strength. Studies have indicated that with advanced powerlifters it takes about 14 days to really start losing strength.
2. You can sometimes use the cumulative exhaust method instead of training to failure. See enclosed.
3. You don't HAVE to go to complete failure on every set every time to stimulate growth. Going within 1 rep of failure will work. Or perhaps only go to failure for your weak points, and do within 1 rep for the stronger ones.
4. Get enough sleep and eat enough quality food.

DRush · 10-02-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Schwarz

Actual time spent in the gym is not correlated to results.

I agree! I think this is one of the biggest hurdles people who do a volume training system run into when trying this system. They are so used to all the time they spent in the gym on a 4 or 5 day a week routine that this routine on paper looks like a joke.But anyway here is my routine it is basically straight from the book with minor modifications.:

Workout #1
Chest
Dumbell flys for pre exhaustion 1x6-10 reps
Incline presses 1x1-3 (I modified this, as I go for 6-10)

Back
Straight arms pulldowns for pre exhaustion 1x6-10
Palms up pulldowns 1x 6-10
Deadlifts 1x6-10
____________________________________________
Workout #2
Legs
Leg extensions for pre exhaustion
1x12-20
Leg presses
1x12-20
Standing calf raises
1x12-20
Abs
Situp 1x12-20
____________________________________________
Workout #3
Shoulders
Dumbell lateral raises 1x6-10
Bent-over dumbell laterals 1x6-10
( I substituted the excersise above with behind the neck presses, funny thing is when I was doing my other routine I incorperated these as well and was only doing 155,with this routine I already jumped up to 185 and I thought I could do more after that set.)
Biceps
Palms up pulldowns 1x6-10
Triceps
Tricep pressdowns for pre exhaustion 1x6-10
Dips 1x3-5(I modified this also because of the strength of my upperbody I can easily do 10-15 with the slow 4 sec negatives, I will be starting to wear a loaded weight belt but I wont go under 6 reps)
__________________________________________
Workout #4
Legs
Leg extensions for pre exhaustion
1x12-20
Leg presses
1x12-20
Standing calf raises
1x12-20
Abs
Situp 1x12-20

It is a repeat of #2. This is my workout as of now. I rest typically at least 3 days,I rest more after legs probably 4 and take more if I dont feel 100%, as my job is very taxing,( I work my city DPW which is trash,recycle etc which is very demanding physically)
I will tell you right off the bat I dont go and blast out 1 to the max set, I have at least one lighter warmup set.This is one thing I do for leg presses.I have actually found my knee problems subsided with this routine.

LaggingBiceps · 10-02-2005, 05:14 PM

^^ thats SORT of what im starting tomorrow...

mine is gonna go like this...

Monday-Chest/Shoulders
Chest
Flat Dumbell Bench Press (6-10)-
superset with
Incline Barbell Bench Press (6-10)(Drop Set)-
3 min. rest
Decline Barbell Bench Press (6-10)(Drop Set)-

Shoulders
Military Press (6-10)-
superset with
Rear Delt Raises (6-10)(Drop Set)-
3 min rest
Lateral Raises (6-10)(Drop Set)-

Wednesday-Legs
Legs
Squats (6-10)-
superset with
Leg Extensions (6-10)(Drop Set)-
3 min rest
Leg Curls (6-10)(Drop Set)-

Friday-Back/Arms
Back
Deadlifts (6-10)-
superset with
Dumbell Rows (6-10)(Drop Set)-
3 min rest
Lat Pull-down (6-10)(Drop Set)-

Arms
Barbell Curls (6-10)-
superset with
Close-Grip Bench Press (6-10)(Drop Set)-

^^hope all goes well and i give mike menzter some more respect

DRush · 10-02-2005, 05:38 PM

I think some important things to keep in mind that seems to never get mentioned when people talk of HIT workouts is the fact on how you actually do them. I guess most I assume, think that when you say one set to failure they imagine one set of crappy form bench pressing for example, with bouce off the chest finishes. This is the farthest thing from the truth. Do the set with with the 4 sec negative, the 1 sec pause at contraction and the 2 sec finish. You will be surprised how intense and how hard that set will become. Do the math, if the set is 10 reps for example, a 4 sec negative on each one equals to 40 secs + 1 sec pause= 50sec plus the 2 sec finish. This means you are handling that weight for over a minute.Which I said in the other post will almost equal to the time it takes you to do 2-3 sets of volume training, and HIT is still more intense. The other thing is rest,unless you are doing steroids and even then only rest will let you grow.I look at it this way and I may be wrong. You get a small cut and it may take over a week to heal fully, so why is training any different?You tear down the muscle and you expect it to heal in 2 days?I think the 3-4 days and up is sound advice.(I have been at a standstill for almost a year in the size and strength department). Now on days when you do legs,Im sure you can do an upper body workout 2 days later as it wont affect the trained areas. Mike mentzer latest book is very informative and totally different in regards to anything anyone here has read up until now.As I have read Arnolds encyclopedia, Joe Weiders books, etc. And I can say without a doubt this book will be very interesting and informative to some one picking it up for the first time.

Ron Schwarz · 10-02-2005, 06:31 PM

If you want my honest opinion, I'm not a big fan of using pre-exhaust as extensively as your routine entails.

Here's an excerpt from the HIT FAQ about this:
------------------
There are two basic drawbacks to pre-exhaustion. First, your goal should be to get as strong as possible on the compound movements. If you spend too much time using this technique, your strength will increase on the single joint movement, at the expense of the compound movement. You want to get as strong as possible on the overhead press, not the lateral raise. Second, it’s
difficult as it is to push a straight set to failure. To do this with two exercises in a row with no rest is much more difficult. Most trainees will end up pushing hard on the first single-joint movement, but cannot push hard on the more result producing multiple-joint movement. Most people will not get big and strong from single-joint movements, so this ends up being counterproductive.
Additionally, even if you can really push yourself to failure on two exercises in a row like this (and remember this is actually very difficult), you could end up overtraining.
----------------------

Does that make sense to you?

In my humble opinion, pre-exhaust is something useful for the *really* advanced guys who have poundages that are really high, and are getting to a point in their life where using such heavy weights is really hard on their joints. Using a lighter weight for pre-exhaust is a useful tool for them in some cases.

The idea that the biceps are the "weak link" when doing chins, for e.g., and that your lats thus won't get enough stimulation, is false. Tons of guys have gotten quite big lats using chins, without pre-exhaust.

Now, "reverse" pre-exhaust aka post-exhaust is a different story. If I'm specializing on my biceps for e.g., I might do chins immediately followed by bicep curls. Again, however, I do this on a very occasional basis.

My position on all the "intensity enhancer" methods - forced reps, negs, pre-exhaust etc. - is that they are WAY overused by most people and that is why there are those who end up overtraining even on a limited volume approach like HIT. Focus on "regular" training to failure - or coming close to it - and you'll be much better off.

Awnold79 · 10-02-2005, 06:38 PM

One of the harderst challenges for me was NOT going to the gym as much. I also follow Mentzer's Heavy Duty system and have seen the best results of my life. NEVER did I ever imagine myself doing incline flys with 110's and then going on to do a set of 8 strict partials with 405lbs on the flat bench followed by 2 full reps on my own. This has been a great experience for me.....actually I just got back from the gym now...shoulders and arms today and I can barely type.

DRush · 10-03-2005, 06:50 PM

I went to the gym today workout was well went up in all but 2 excersises.

Did the workout #1 I posted above, here are the before and after:

Dumbell flys: Last week I did 40lb this week I did 50lb but Im still feeling out the weights, I felt I could do more after the 50s

Incline bench: Last week 225 for 8 Today 245 for 9(felt i could do more as the workout states 1-3 reps in the book,at that rep range I feel 275 or even 295 would be possible,but I keep it 6-10, I felt I could have added another 10-15lbs in the 6-10 range)

Straight arms pulldowns :last week 75lbs today same but 2 more reps

Palms up pulldowns: Last week 165 today same same reps

Dead lifts: last week 225 for 8 today 275 for 8 ( I felt I could do moreafter the set, next workout 295 easy)

Not bad Im happy with the results, I know why I didnt go up on the 2 back excercises,as I was shouveling asphalt out of the back of the truck all day this morning, I think I may have worn out my arms this morning. Ill be definatly be taking at least 4 days off until the next workout.

One thing very important for anyone doing HIT style workouts is definatly somehow keep track of weights and reps to refer to on the next workout, this is a must. Until next time

LaggingBiceps · 10-03-2005, 07:09 PM

i did my first day of HIT and it came to bite me in the ass. im sticking to HVT now

cpa5oh · 10-03-2005, 07:22 PM

DRush please keep us updated on how this goes for you over the full eight weeks.

I'm an accountant and tax season looms...I'd LOVE to be able to train a little (time-wise) and gain alot. It just seems real unorthodox to me.

Sloandy73 · 10-03-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Schwarz

Actual time spent in the gym is not correlated to results.

Can you post your actual routine? I'm interested to see what you are doing. I'm a HIT guy, but I don't use Mentzer's system. My style is much more in line with Dr. Ken Leistner and Rob Spector's approaches.

It is what you do in the gym, not how long it takes you. I used to train at Iron Island Gym and about 8 years ago Dr. Ken gave me a high intensity back work out. It lasted about 6-8 minutes and I think it had to be the best work-out my back has ever seen. Since then I utilize the knowledge I learned at Iron Island gym combined with the high intensity books I read to develop my own high intensity training routine. Training to failure with perfect form is the only way to go in my book. Currently I train the entire body 2 times a week and after I warm up it takes me about 27-32 minutes to finish my routine.

DRush · 10-03-2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpa5oh

It just seems real unorthodox to me.

Doesn't it? Im so used to being in the gym 4-5 days a week that when I go, which is now every 4 days or so I go in there like today do the workout, took me about 25 minutes, anf then I leave.When I finish I just stand there and feel confused.I feel tired ,but Im always second guessing the workout.I hope this pans out,I like what I am seeing even after today. Thing was with me eating every 3 hours and keeping track of my intake was time consuming and throw that in with 4-5 days a week training I had no time for anything. Now Im making gains, and have alot more free time.But will defintatly keep this post updated.

Ron Schwarz · 10-03-2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

Doesn't it? Im so used to being in the gym 4-5 days a week that when I go, which is now every 4 days or so I go in there like today do the workout, took me about 25 minutes, anf then I leave.When I finish I just stand there and feel confused.I feel tired ,but Im always second guessing the workout.I hope this pans out,I like what I am seeing even after today. Thing was with me eating every 3 hours and keeping track of my intake was time consuming and throw that in with 4-5 days a week training I had no time for anything. Now Im making gains, and have alot more free time.But will defintatly keep this post updated.

Yes, it's not just a training style change, it's a lifestyle change. When I was training 5x/week+ my life revolved around my workouts. Now that I'm every 4-6 days, my workouts revolve around my life.

Hey, I'm not here to judge: some people like to spend more time in the gym. I'm very happy making great gains AND not spending only a small amount of time/week in the gym.

Ron Schwarz · 10-03-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpa5oh

I'm an accountant and tax season looms...I'd LOVE to be able to train a little (time-wise) and gain alot. It just seems real unorthodox to me.

I know, it violates the belief of "more time in the gym = better results".

But really, if you think about it the concept is straightforward and simple: focus on a few basic compound movements (squat, deadlift, bench, chin, etc), work as hard as possible on these movements in good form, and do so on an infrequent basis, i.e., approx 2x/week, always focusing on adding poundage to the bar.

Tried and true concept.

Kane Fan · 10-03-2005, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Schwarz

I know, it violates the belief of "more time in the gym = better results".

But really, if you think about it the concept is straightforward and simple: focus on a few basic compound movements (squat, deadlift, bench, chin, etc), work as hard as possible on these movements in good form, and do so on an infrequent basis, i.e., approx 2x/week, always focusing on adding poundage to the bar.

Tried and true concept.

yah all that stuff has potential, but it's the failure part that makes me dislike it

Demorak · 10-04-2005, 03:17 AM

I use HIT from time to time... but I have a hard time gaining strenght on it. I mean some people I know can gain as much as 3-5 more reps each week. But I never seem to be able to get more then 1-2 more reps usually 1.
I guess its genetics because I still grow (0.5-1 pound each week)

DRush · 10-10-2005, 01:39 PM

Its been a few days past but did my latest routine which is routine #2 which is legs and abs heres what happended:

Leg extensions for pre exhaust:

previous best 175lb for 12 now did 185 for 12

Leg Press
Previous best 16 45lb plates for 16,now I just did 18 45lb plates for 14 reps

Standing calf raises

Previous best 175 for 12, now 195 for 13

All sets done strict form, 4 sec negative,1 sec pause at contraction and 2 sec finish.

Im still going up on strength,measured my thighs, they are a solid 27 inches.Calfs have also gone up a 2/8 inch.I did this workout on Thursday.The next workout will be on tuesday workout #3.Will update on this tomorrow.Thanks all for reading

Ron Schwarz · 10-10-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

Its been a few days past but did my latest routine which is routine #2 which is legs and abs heres what happended:

Leg extensions for pre exhaust:

previous best 175lb for 12 now did 185 for 12

Leg Press
Previous best 16 45lb plates for 16,now I just did 18 45lb plates for 14 reps

Standing calf raises

Previous best 175 for 12, now 195 for 13

All sets done strict form, 4 sec negative,1 sec pause at contraction and 2 sec finish.

Im still going up on strength,measured my thighs, they are a solid 27 inches.Calfs have also gone up a 2/8 inch.I did this workout on Thursday.The next workout will be on tuesday workout #3.Will update on this tomorrow.Thanks all for reading

Great! Congrats on doing so well.

Keep us posted.

splice · 10-10-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Schwarz

Yes, it's not just a training style change, it's a lifestyle change. When I was training 5x/week+ my life revolved around my workouts. Now that I'm every 4-6 days, my workouts revolve around my life.

Hey, I'm not here to judge: some people like to spend more time in the gym. I'm very happy making great gains AND not spending only a small amount of time/week in the gym.

I agree with this. When i was doing musclenow ( not knocking it) i had to revolve life around it. It was crazy to try to get in an hour to an hour and a half of workouts 4 or 5 days a week. It sucked literally. I gained some muscle but i think most people that do it have the time to do it. Maybe they don't work as much or whatever but it takes time for it. I hope this won't start some dumbass h.i.t vs hvt war no need for it. But I started working out using basic excersise 6-8 of them doing an A and B workout 5 times every two weeks and it's the best program ( for me) that has been tried. I have done HVT before who hasnt. But the power of hitting the muscle hard and Rest which is a big one are the key factors for me.

Everything works no doubt about it. I don't like to compare programs that people do to bodybuilders becaus ei know plenty of people that are big and strong that do one or two sets fullbody to failure. You could look at 4 of my buddies and think they work out constantly but two work out three days a week for an hour and a half total another for two days a week for the same time. The other one got so strong he reduced down to one day a week with four excersises and gets stronger every time. These dudes are big and they laugh when they here people say it doesnt work. They just jump in with someone do a set say " thank you" and get to the next set so they can leave and get on with life.

You do what you want to do but a personal suggestion to not waste your time is to do as little as possible to get the results YOU want. Why do more? no need. I was checking out the musclenow site and for a respectable guy to put that h.i.t is a myth or a scam is plain dumb. I havent seen an updated picture of him hmmmmmmmm makes me think is he really doing his own system.

But do what you need to get where you want....... ME? It's 5 times every two week 6-8 excersises one or two sets to failure in then out and enjoying life.

Just my take so you don't waste your time.

cpa5oh · 10-10-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demorak

I use HIT from time to time... but I have a hard time gaining strenght on it. I mean some people I know can gain as much as 3-5 more reps each week. But I never seem to be able to get more then 1-2 more reps usually 1.
I guess its genetics because I still grow (0.5-1 pound each week)

1-2 reps per week to me would be more than adequate. I'd be adding 10 lbs. on my bench and squat every week/2 weeks at that rate. I'm nowhere near that now.

DRush · 10-10-2005, 06:20 PM

Ive never heard about the muscle now system until I just read the response from splice. There is one glaring thing I do not understand that the owner or whoever runs that site says it is" Do NOT confuse strength gains with muscle building" I dont understand this statement. In the Mentzer book he specifically says that with strength gains the size will follow. It is logical to assume that when you move up in weight for a given amount of time the muscle will adapt by growing to accomidate the heavier weight. Yes I can say right now that the gains I had up until now have all been from HVT, but during that time I can say Ive been injured,(muscle tears, joint pain,etc) more than ever. While I just posted i just leg pressed 18 45lb plates this is the most weight I have ever pressed in my life, I have done 20 plates, but for no more than 8 reps, Im pumping out 14 reps with 90lbs less if you do the math Im lifting more lbs for more reps in more time,meaning if I pressed 20 45lb plates for eight reps using HVT I was pressing a weight of 900lbs x 8 which is a total of 7200lbs vs 18 45lb plates for 14 reps which is 11300lbs total.But, you have to figure out the time which the muiscle is actually working and if you go by the HIT I use which is 4 sec negative,1 sec pause at contraction and 2 sec finish you can figure the muscle is under stress for aproximatly 98 sec using 11300 lbs. Now I have said this method = to 2 or 3 sets of HVT and this equation will correlate this. Take the aformentioned example which I figured out the time for HIT , now lets figure out the time for HVT Take my 8 reps for 20 45lb plates( which was my best) I can say I wasnt doing anyhere close to a 4 sec negative lets just say 1-2 sec negative and definatly no pause at the bottom, and I pushed it up as fast as possible most likly 1 sec. Ill say each rep took about 4 sec to complete so take this and compute the muscle is under stess for 32 sec total which would = to about 3 sets HVT to = 1 set HIT and you are still doing more total weight using hit style. Now anyone can argue the fact on how long it takes to complete a rep in HVT, but you have to remember if you are doing HVT reps using the 4 sec negative, 1 sec pause at contraction and 2 sec finish, you are not doing HVT anymore you are doing HIT. And I can say honestly that If I was doing HVT using this method I would never be able to do as many set as I did. I agree HVT works,but being we work for a living, and dont workout for a living is a glaring fact of life. Being on HIT Im lifting more weight and the funny thing is my knees havent hurt since I started thie routine,and I thought it was the heavy weight, its all along been the volume, and the much needed days off that I never took.

Ron Schwarz · 10-10-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

Ive never heard about the muscle now system until I just read the response from splice. There is one glaring thing I do not understand that the owner or whoever runs that site says it is" Do NOT confuse strength gains with muscle building" I dont understand this statement.

That's because it doesn't make any sense. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. If you can bench 200lbs and later on can bench 300lbs, dontca think your muscles will be bigger? I mean, this isn't rocket science, y'know?

The silly logic some of these guys use is comparing one person vs. another. They'll say, "Look, Olympic weightlifters aren't as big as bodybuilders, but they are stronger".

Huh?

To which I say, look at the top powerlifters. Ever notice that the biggest guys lift the most weight? I mean, duh.

Besides, you compare yourself against yourself. It's a pretty safe bet that you can curl more when your biceps are 18" vs. when they were 14".

Crazy talk, I know.

DRush · 10-11-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Schwarz

That's because it doesn't make any sense. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle.

I just had a little giggle when I read that Ron, you said exactly what I thought.

Okay, here is another update.
Did the workout # 3 which is shoulders+ arms

Workout #3
Shoulders
1: Dumbell lateral raises
Last week I did 20lbs for 8 this week 25lbs for 8.I dont know if this weight is hconsidered heavy or not as I never did this excercise before, but I am making gains

2:Behind the Neck Press
Last week did 185lbs for 8, this week I added 10lbs and got the same reps

Biceps

4:Palms up pulldowns

Last week I did 165lbs for 11.This week I did 185 for 8
Triceps
5:Tricep pressdowns

This week I did 150lbs for 8 reps,last week I did the 160 for 8 but I cracked down on my form as I was way more strict and payed attention to the reps and negatives.This is a problem Im having, I have to stay so very focused, and be able to count down the negatives, and concentrate and the form,definatly hit it right this week

6: Dips

Now I said last time I would add weight and I did,funny thing is I should have added more.
Last week I didn my body weight which is 220, this week I added a 25lb plate and did 10 reps.Could have easily done a 35 if not a 45lb plate.So there are my updates. There are some update in regards to weight increase and body size changes also. Like I said in my previous post my thighs are up to a solid 27inches. I just measured my chest and maybe I measured wrong the first time but it now measures 48 1/2 right above the nipples . My arms are up an 1/8 also they are now 17 6/8. My body weigh is now 225, but will go down to 222 when I wake up.Thanks all for reading

splice · 10-11-2005, 06:37 PM

Drush- i agree with you on some of the things you are saying. I have gained on hvt who hasnt. Everyone has started with it. BUt with it came injuries even though i was using strict form and no jerking weight around like i see most. My knees couldnt take and my back thats a whole different story. KNow that i do only 1 to two sets instead of sometimes up to 5 my knees don;t hurt ( not even during winter time either).

YOu can get stronger and not bigger this is true but i would think if you can do 100 pouinds more on say the bench you might haev added some sort of muscle. NOt sure what the saying was by i think arthur jones said it that if you can curl 200 pounds with strict form your arms woulkd be big enough to handle most things not as big as a bear. Probably wrong but you get the point.

The musclenow guy is right in some things but seeing that he hasnt changed his pitcture on his website in years makes me think. But he's doing his thing and his program works for people so no need to knock it.

I just love h.i.t because i work so i don't need an ass load of time to get results. I can live a life besides in the gym. People who go to the gym and work out for 10 hours a week look better to impress others at the gym not people outside it.

I just say do as little as possible like i said before my buddy works out ocne a week and most would be jealous of this kid 5'9 210 solid pounds.

SO do what you do.

**_Dominik_** · 10-11-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRush

There is one glaring thing I do not understand that the owner or whoever runs that site says it is" Do NOT confuse strength gains with muscle building" I dont understand this statement. In the Mentzer book he specifically says that with strength gains the size will follow.

Not necessarily. You can make impressive gains in size and still be quite weak for your weight. Gyms are full of these guys. They're huge but they struggle to dip or chin-up their own body weight.

It's quite simple really. Strength gains are also due to neural (CNS) factors which come into play with maximal weights (1-3 reps). There are also two types of hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar.

Sarcoplasmic: "Specifically, filament area density in the muscle fibers increases, without an accompanying increase in muscle strength."

Myofibrillar: "This type of fiber hypertrophy leads to increased muscle force production. Myofibrillar hypertrophy is typically found in elite weightlifters (if the training program is designed properly) whereas sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is typically seen in bodybuilders." (Zatsiorsky)

That's why there are powerlifters under 200lbs who can bench, squat, or deadlift, over 3 times their body weight. How many bodybuilders can do that? Those who think strength gains are primarily due to an increase in muscle size are sadly mistaken.