a whey shake post workout could kick ya out of keto?

[sunny81]

Hey,

I heard here on the boards that a whey shake post-wo could keep you from ketosis?

What do you all do? Better options? Just a lean meat?

Today is day five for me and I have only lost 1 lb. and figured I'd have lost more water weight by now. I thought maybe it's due to the whey. It's weird - usually I'm starving after a workout but for the past few days... nothing.. not hungry. Would it be okay to just wait for a while for hunger to strike and eat dinner (full fat)?

What have you all found to work?

Thanks!

[comedic.genious]

just have real food instead of the shakes.......

Originally Posted by sunny81

Hey,

I heard here on the boards that a whey shake post-wo could keep you from ketosis?

What do you all do? Better options? Just a lean meat?

Today is day five for me and I have only lost 1 lb. and figured I'd have lost more water weight by now. I thought maybe it's due to the whey. It's weird - usually I'm starving after a workout but for the past few days... nothing.. not hungry. Would it be okay to just wait for a while for hunger to strike and eat dinner (full fat)?

What have you all found to work?

Thanks!

[phabphour20]

or adding some fat into the shake (olive oil or peanut butter) could help moderate the insulin response.

I was gaining muscle, but didn't start losing fat until I cut out the PWO whey.

Lean protein by itself (say, a plain chicken breast with vegetables) causes an insulin response that is close to that of plain pasta. All your meals should contain at least some protein and some fat.

-PP

[jaim91]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

or adding some fat into the shake (olive oil or peanut butter) could help moderate the insulin response.

-PP

But the fat will blunt the shuttling of protein to muscles, no?

Don't we want a small insulin spike PWO to get teh protein there faster?

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by jaim91

But the fat will blunt the shuttling of protein to muscles, no?

Don't we want a small insulin spike PWO to get teh protein there faster?

I would only worry about this is you were bulking (as you are, right?).

For cutting, the PWO shake isn't going to really help all that much. If people just eat a good P+F meal afterward, I don't think the difference would be measurable.

There are far more anabolic hormones in the body than insulin, epecially in men. The protein will get to the muscle without insulin.

-PP

[marty6001]

Sunny,
Although a few more dollars, I use the nitro-tech protein and have never had a problem with being knocked out of keto. its aroundabout 5g total for the two scoops PWO. I also add 10g of creatine to it. Just my 1-1/2 cents!!

[rayjay]

if you only had whey and say water (maybe some glutamine like i do) would you really be having enough carbs to actually knock you out of keto?

i use PVL Whey Maxx and it only has 2g of carbs per scoop. 1 scoop of that + water + gluatmine = 2g carbs pwo. most boards ive read have been suggesting 15g of simple carbs (even eating just straight sugar...although i dont).

btw...adding olive oil to whey tastes god awful. i tried it today. you get a chocolatey taste but then you get that fruit smell/taste of olive oil, definitely not my cup of tea, but it does boost my shakes up to 27g fat, 2g carb, 23g prot, so i guess its not a bad idea.


anyone tried mixing whey with heavy cream or half/half instead of water? just a thought

[deadfingers]

Why not use Isopure? It's low/no carb and it tastes awesome. It's a little pricey, but it's the best stuff imo.

[rayjay]

because you just said it, its pricey haha. whey maxx is nice and cheap, tastes amazing and since its a local company (i'm a vancouverite) the guy at the store gives me huge discounts on it as opposed to when i buy ON and other non-local brands.

but i agree, isopure is a good choice if you can afford it. its tastes awesome too.

[deadfingers]

Eh idk I've really only tried a few different protein shakes out there. Muscle Milk, the GNC one and Isopure. I ordered some ON French Vanilla, and they seem to be a pretty popular brand around these forums so I gave them a shot.

[Andrew69]

Originally Posted by marty6001

Sunny,
Although a few more dollars, I use the nitro-tech protein and have never had a problem with being knocked out of keto. its aroundabout 5g total for the two scoops PWO. I also add 10g of creatine to it. Just my 1-1/2 cents!!

10g of creatine is literally pissing money down the drain. At least its pretty cheap these days

3-5g is more than enough to keep creatine levels maxed out.

[unkept_]

Whey by itself causes a significant insulin spike, not as much as carbs do but definately noticable, rated around moderate and sometimes even high.

It's nothing you should honestly worry about. I use a cup of milk + whey and I don't get kicked out. Milk having ~10g carbs itself + whey spike.

[CanuckTank]

Originally Posted by unkept_

Whey by itself causes a significant insulin spike, not as much as carbs do but definately noticable, rated around moderate and sometimes even high.

It's nothing you should honestly worry about. I use a cup of milk + whey and I don't get kicked out. Milk having ~10g carbs itself + whey spike.

Is there any proof that whey spike insulin?

Can anyone provide some literature backing this up?

[unkept_]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

Is there any proof that whey spike insulin?

Can anyone provide some literature backing this up?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...+insulin+spike
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...+insulin+spike
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...+insulin+spike

Few threads that give good explanations. I don't have any articles, but all foods cause an insulin response because macros other than carbs can be converted to glucose themselves. There's a glycemic index and an insulin index.

I saw a post by Layne Norton, he's pretty credible and he says it himself. I can't find it right now, but I didn't believe it either till I researched, I always thought only carbs spiked insulin.

[CanuckTank]

Well ****, guess I will only be using shake PWO from now on for Keto only.

I usually have one right in the morning.

Wonder if I should can my R-ALA suppliment seeing it is an insulin mimicker.

[marty6001]

Originally Posted by Andrew69

10g of creatine is literally pissing money down the drain. At least its pretty cheap these days

3-5g is more than enough to keep creatine levels maxed out.

Your probably right, but its so cheap and I've read on a few forums here that it may help a bit to take 10 so hey what can it hurt. The worst that happens is I pee it all out!!

[jaim91]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

I would only worry about this is you were bulking (as you are, right?).

For cutting, the PWO shake isn't going to really help all that much. If people just eat a good P+F meal afterward, I don't think the difference would be measurable.

There are far more anabolic hormones in the body than insulin, epecially in men. The protein will get to the muscle without insulin.

-PP

I'm cutting. But this is what I got back from a nutritionist when I told him about Xtend and teh BCAAs being insulinogenic and stuff:

Leucine causes it's own little insulin reaction, but it is transient and not biphasic like a carb.

The take home? It stimulates insulin just enough to get it into your system. It will not increase insulin enough for it to freaking matter

[troythompson]

im keto bulking right now... should i NOT have a whey shake directly after my workout? im confused now... what dos everyone else do post workout? also, ive been taking xtend pre-workout, bad idea???

[CanuckTank]

Originally Posted by marty6001

Your probably right, but its so cheap and I've read on a few forums here that it may help a bit to take 10 so hey what can it hurt. The worst that happens is I pee it all out!!

Actually, all you are doing is overworking your kidneys for no benefit.

If you don' have to take that much, then don't take that much.

It is as easy as that.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by troythompson

im keto bulking right now... should i NOT have a whey shake directly after my workout? im confused now... what dos everyone else do post workout? also, ive been taking xtend pre-workout, bad idea???

For keto bulking I would definitely have the shake. You need as many opportunities as possible to get some protein into your system.

[troythompson]

that what i figured...

[jaim91]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

For keto bulking I would definitely have the shake. You need as many opportunities as possible to get some protein into your system.

But if you're not bulking, then the Xtend BARELY gives you an insulinogenic response. Nothing you have to worry about.

And the protein/kidney thing isn't true. It's only an issue i fyou have a pre-existing kidney condition

[marty6001]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

Actually, all you are doing is overworking your kidneys for no benefit.

If you don' have to take that much, then don't take that much.

It is as easy as that.

Point taken, and I mean it in a totally positive way!! Dropped to 5g as of today. And actually measuring lol... keep those kidneys happy and squishy!! Thanks!

[Vanusk]

Originally Posted by sunny81

Hey,

I heard here on the boards that a whey shake post-wo could keep you from ketosis?

What do you all do? Better options? Just a lean meat?

Today is day five for me and I have only lost 1 lb. and figured I'd have lost more water weight by now. I thought maybe it's due to the whey. It's weird - usually I'm starving after a workout but for the past few days... nothing.. not hungry. Would it be okay to just wait for a while for hunger to strike and eat dinner (full fat)?

What have you all found to work?

Thanks!

My personal experience with this is no, i've never noticed being kicked out of ketosis, however i never have used keto strips so it could have been possible, but im willing to accept being kicked out for a little while if it means my muscles get the neccsary protein they need. I dont include any fat in my PWO and i dont include any carbs (except whats in the protein powder), then about an hour/hour and half afterwards i eat a normal keto meal with fat and protein.

[Vanusk]

Originally Posted by deadfingers

Why not use Isopure? It's low/no carb and it tastes awesome. It's a little pricey, but it's the best stuff imo.

You should check out dynamtize elite whey, it taste much better then isopure and the carbs are so low its easy to fit into your daily macros. Orange dreamsicle mmmm

[muruku]

i believe ala is a insulin potentiator, as in it increases insulin sensitivity. but does not cause a insulin spike. correct me if im wrong though.

[Bo DeLone]

I have tried so many post workout meals during keto.

1. I have used a keto meal like cheese and meat postworkout. I got a massive calf cramp that lasted a few weeks after being in strict keto with intense weight training and minimal carbs for a month.

2. I have used a Muscle Milk shake postworkout. Overtraining symptoms hit hard after about 6 weeks.

I have used a dextrose/whey shake postworkout which I think worked by far the best for me in terms of recovery. I am not concerned with the dextrose getting me out of keto postworkout anymore when I used to be.

[GrimJack]

Here's a pretty cool study from the journal of applied physiology, comparing the insulin and glucose response to a high fat diet to a high protein diet and to a high carbohydrate diet. For once, by high fat they actually mean high fat, the high fat diet being 75 percent fat, 15 percent carbohydrate, 10 percent protein.
The high protein diet (protein 41 percent fat 40 percent carbs 19 percent) caused pretty big swings in insulin but not blood glucose, while the high carbohydrate diet (protein 10 percent fat 27 percent carbs 63 percent) caused big swings in both glucose and insulin. The standard diet was 11 protein 49 fat and 40 carbohydrate, and the insulin and blood glucose swings were very similar to those in the high carbohydrate diet, which shows that just swapping carbs to fat won't be effective until the fat to carb ratio becomes very high.
(I should mention the diets were all isocaloric.)




I don't think I can really do the study justice just by describing it, so here it is: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/85/3/935/T1

John Berardi suggests consuming half your day's protein just after working out. While that might cause an insulin spike after the workout, in a ketogenic diet framework you'd then be eating more fat vs protein the rest of the day, which would tend to encourage ketosis.
Your choice. (Anyone get the reference?)

[Bo DeLone]

Originally Posted by GrimJack

John Berardi suggests consuming half your day's protein just after working out. While that might cause an insulin spike after the workout, in a ketogenic diet framework you'd then be eating more fat vs protein the rest of the day, which would tend to encourage ketosis.
Your choice. (Anyone get the reference?)

Are you sure Berardi says to consume HALF your days protein just after working out? I think this is a typo.

That much protein at that moment could just cause digestive unpleasentness.

[NUDITY]

PWO insulin spike is very debatable whether this is favorable or not. Dextrose PWO will force glycogen back into the muscles (while maintaining ketosis) so I have been recommending it for people on keto but boy do get an earful from pro bber's on this. Many suggest it others say absolutely not. I don't think its that big a deal either way.

I take whey/casein as well creatine and 15g dextrose in a shaker bottle PWO.