Question about injuries from Deadlifts (and other back stuff)

**The Viking** · 09-20-2005, 04:19 PM

Not sure how to name the title. Meh. I guess these are some pretty dumb questions, but I don't really know the answers.. Heh, so yeah, please take a look.

Say a person that can deadlift 200lbs for 5 reps; if he tried 250 with a rounded back and poor form, he could possibly bust up his back. Right? Now, just how serious could this injury be? Could your back just completely snap and you be dead? Please give me some info on this, thank you.

Second, now say another person, he's all strong and stuff, works with great form, can deadlift 600lbs. Now, if he goes for just 200lbs, he should easily be able to do it. Well, what if he tried 200lbs with poor form and his back rounded? He wouldn't get injured, will he? If not, I suppose the reason would be because his back is strong enough to support his bent spine with the weight?

Third and lastly, when people are talking about poor flexibility in the back, how does that exactly work? Is it just that their back muscles are stiff and unflexible or does it have anything to do with the natural range of motion of their vertebral column?

Thanks in advance.

**NewBlackDak** · 09-20-2005, 07:15 PM

I've seen a guy that deadlifts ~400 bend over weird to pick up a bag of dog food, and hurt his back pretty bad.
The weight it would take to snap your spine would be considerably more than you can probably lift. Sure 600 might kill you when you can only do 200, but if you could only do 250 I doubt you could even move 600. I tried 580 the other day, and my form went bad(didn't get my hips into it). It didn't affect my back at all. The only thing that hurt is my thigh. I used my leg to push the weight away from me, so it wouldn't fall on me. Small bruise and a big scrape from the knurling, but I'm fine otherwise.

**The Viking** · 09-20-2005, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by NewBlackDak

I've seen a guy that deadlifts ~400 bend over weird to pick up a bag of dog food, and hurt his back pretty bad.

Wha the heck? Are you serious? I bend over to pick up almost everything, besides when I'm lifting; and I don't recall having the slightest problem with my back or spine or anypart of my body. Besides, how did you know he deadlifted 400? I mean, do you see him at the gym, and then bumped into him and some Pet store or something? Meh, I dont suppose this happens often now... I guess it could if you're in some really weird position and something funny is going on at that moment.. Or maybe he just has really bad flexibility in his back; like this one guy I know.

**NewBlackDak** · 09-20-2005, 07:39 PM

Actually he's my buddy, and we workout together about once a month. He turned(without really moving his hips) to pick up a 40lb sack of dog food off a shelf, and pulled a muscle in his lower back. Took weeks for him to get over.

**The Viking** · 09-20-2005, 07:44 PM

Ah, I see. Well, pulling a muscle happens. I thought he actually got one of those bones near the spine in the vertebral column messed up. Heh, well thanks for clearing that up.

Yep, so thanks. And any other comments are very welcome.

**psychojoe** · 09-21-2005, 12:17 AM

no one can say what would happen in the situations in your post dude. Its gonna be way more complicated than just a certain % of your max lift done badly = injury threshold

Regarding the 600lb DLer doing 200 with a rounded back - according to most sources, when rounded, most of the muscles involved in supporting the spine are taken out of action, putting a lot of the load on connective tissues and the spine itself. So if this DLer was any more able to support 200lbs with a rounded back than a weaker DLer, it may be largely to do with the strength of his non-contractile support components

**Danimal** · 09-21-2005, 05:45 AM

My advice is don't dwell on what if's. People throw out their backs bending over to pick up a pencil. Yes, they are usually out of shape couch potatoes but it happens. My brother just slipped a disk in his neck, using a pitch fork to take straw out of the back of a truck. He's been a manual laborer his entire life and even though he's not weightlifting strong, he can put in a full day of hard work and is in good shape. What he was doing was normal activity for him. You can never tell when it will happen, so you can't worry about it. The only thing you can do is to make sure you use the best form possible and don't go overboard on your lifts- whether it's too many reps of a certain weight, or too much weight. Learn your limits, push your limits, but be smart about it. If I can squat close to 600, I'm not going to try 700 just to see what it feels like. I'd try 625 though. If I can bench 440, I'm not going to try 500 just to see what it feels like, but I might try 460. Get the idea?

**DieselWeasel** · 09-21-2005, 06:20 AM

I deadlift with a rounded back most of the time and I never get hurt. However, I could be the exception that proves the rule.

http://media.putfile.com/max_dead_455
http://media.putfile.com/max_dead_325x11

**lifterg** · 09-21-2005, 09:12 AM

A lot of times you can actually do the damage with a heavy weight, then when lifting something lighter, in a bad position, the spasming starts.

I have deadlifted over 600 a bunch of times. One of the most painfull epsodes started picking up a 45 from a plate rack.

Bottom line is he'll heal.

**P0W3RLIFT3R87** · 09-21-2005, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by The Viking

Not sure how to name the title. Meh. I guess these are some pretty dumb questions, but I don't really know the answers.. Heh, so yeah, please take a look.

Say a person that can deadlift 200lbs for 5 reps; if he tried 250 with a rounded back and poor form, he could possibly bust up his back. Right? Now, just how serious could this injury be? Could your back just completely snap and you be dead? Please give me some info on this, thank you.

Second, now say another person, he's all strong and stuff, works with great form, can deadlift 600lbs. Now, if he goes for just 200lbs, he should easily be able to do it. Well, what if he tried 200lbs with poor form and his back rounded? He wouldn't get injured, will he? If not, I suppose the reason would be because his back is strong enough to support his bent spine with the weight?

Third and lastly, when people are talking about poor flexibility in the back, how does that exactly work? Is it just that their back muscles are stiff and unflexible or does it have anything to do with the natural range of motion of their vertebral column?

Thanks in advance.

Anything can happen even if you use good form and a weight that is light. You don't really know when, but using good form and reasonable weight decreases the chance of injury. So, you shouldn't purposely try to use more weight than you know you can handle or at least are pretty close to. If you can't keep your back straight, even if you can lift the weight, than you probably shouldn't be lifting that weight yet until you get stronger. Besides, injuries heal, and I think it would take a lot to cause something very serious.

**GoJu** · 09-21-2005, 01:37 PM

I remember I was rack pulling this one day, warmed up with 225 and went up all the way to 365, realize my pull off the floor then was about 275 so this was a BIG jump in weight for me, but I figured I could do it. Funny things is I did, I got the one rep with 365 with relatively good form for a rack pull from knee level; that night though, I couldn't get up from a bent-over position without extreme pain, had to sleep with a heating bag under my lower back. 3 days later though I was fine and back in the gym, so it really depends on a lot of factors, my lesson: don't overestimate yourself and don't underestimate the weight, ESPECIALLY on deads and squats.

**The Viking** · 09-21-2005, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by DieselWeasel

I deadlift with a rounded back most of the time and I never get hurt. However, I could be the exception that proves the rule.

http://media.putfile.com/max_dead_455
http://media.putfile.com/max_dead_325x11

Woah, what the heck? (Especially the second one) Are most people supposed to be able to do that without messing up there back? So do you and some of these other people just have a stronger "spine" or something?

--

Also, a question about when you should stop during a set since, I guess you usually shouldn't go to failure when doing it... Anyway, when you start to feel that your back is starting to arch and bend, this is when you should stop, right? Basically (for normal people): Keep your back straight and you should be good, yeah?

And, I'm still wondering about back flexibility, etc, from my first post. Now with an added question: What is it that determins your flexibility at your waist to bend over with a straight back? Hamstring flexibility?

Thanks to you all.

**DieselWeasel** · 09-21-2005, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Viking

Woah, what the heck? (Especially the second one) Are most people supposed to be able to do that without messing up there back? So do you and some of these other people just have a stronger "spine" or something?

My secret is MILK!

Actually, I don't know. Maybe it's because my body became more accustomed to lifting heavy like that.

**runningback666** · 09-21-2005, 06:46 PM

i deadlifted 535(on a trap bar) as a freshman the first time i ever tryed it it was a round back now as a junior i suffer terrible arthritis, i cant even deadlift and more....

**Porky** · 09-21-2005, 09:25 PM

i pulled a muscle in my upper back once while whiping my butt.

hurt for days, there was a knot in my back for like a whole week

**big_baller** · 09-21-2005, 09:40 PM

those things happen though porky.

**notsoslimshady** · 09-21-2005, 09:59 PM

The way a Chiropractor explained to me was like this.

When you lift with a straight back you are using your muscles primarily to lift.

When you lift rounded you are (in addition to muscle) using the ligaments in your back to support the weight. Ligaments are connective tissue that holds your bones and spine together.

Therefore, If you lift with a straight back and get hurt it is more likely going to be muscular in nature.

however, if you lift with a rounded back allowing the ligaments to support the weight and you get injured it can be much more serious because.

a. It takes longer for ligaments to heal. Especially if it is torn.
b. If you have a ligament tear it can then leave you open to herniated disks etc. because that is what ligaments do, they support our spine from folding over.

This does not mean that you should not strenghen the ligaments. He stated that ligaments can also get stronger. However, it generally means when lifting maximal weight that you do not round your lower back.

**myPecsRbigger** · 09-22-2005, 02:44 AM

is a little bit of rounding ok ? and where do you draw the line between a little and to much rounding ?

i usually have a bit of a rounded back when i dl but it feels like my spine muscles are still holding it from going completly rounded thus the spine muscles are holding the weight

**Danimal** · 09-22-2005, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Viking

Also, a question about when you should stop during a set since, I guess you usually shouldn't go to failure when doing it... Anyway, when you start to feel that your back is starting to arch and bend, this is when you should stop, right? Basically (for normal people): Keep your back straight and you should be good, yeah?

Yes! Tho' by most peoples definition, arching is a good thing. Rounding is what you want to avoid. Just a difference in terminology.

**The Viking** · 09-22-2005, 03:31 PM

Eh? Can someone please tell me what the difference between "round" and "arched" mean? Thank you.

**notsoslimshady** · 09-22-2005, 04:15 PM

This link will show you straight back and rounded over.

http://www.stumptuous.com/baddl.html

**The Viking** · 09-22-2005, 04:53 PM

Yes, but I was asking for the differences between what some call a "rounded" back and an "arched" back. Which I don't think the link shows; although thanks for trying.

**notsoslimshady** · 09-22-2005, 04:56 PM

The "Dork" in the link is rounding and the "Diva" is arched. Take a look again.

**The Viking** · 09-22-2005, 05:12 PM

Hmm. Let me quickly draw a picture to illustrate my thoughts.

Here: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8162/bah3jx.jpg

Like that? If so, arching is just bending the "other way", yea?

**notsoslimshady** · 09-22-2005, 05:34 PM

Well Arching is just flexing the back muscles. When you just sit with good posture there is a natural arch of your back.

Therefore, when you deadlift with the appearance of a straight back it is also arched.

I do think that you should not arch your back so far that you look like that girl on the m&m's commercial, just a slight arch is fine.

Nice drawing. btw. In your arched back drawing. I do not think I could get in that position.

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