Carb-Ups.

[wine]

If you carb up on the weekend...and u dont eat carbs Monday...wont ur body just use all the muscle glycogen up on Monday?....then for the rest of the week ur body is burning protein when u workout? What's the point of the carb-up?

[johnnyironboard]

Your body should burn fat during the week. The carb up is done to super compensate your muscle with glyocgen to make it grow plus it helps you stay on your diet.

[wine]

if you skip the carb up, do you start losing muscle?

[johnnyironboard]

Originally Posted by wine

if you skip the carb up, do you start losing muscle?

yep.

[StevenW]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wine
if you skip the carb up, do you start losing muscle?

Originally Posted by johnnyironboard

yep.

Providing protein and fat intake is sufficent, why would you say you start to lose muscle tissue without a carb up? I don't agree with that at all. You would just stay in keto and be burning fat not muscle tissue.

[johnnyironboard]

Originally Posted by StevenW

Quote:
Originally Posted by wine
if you skip the carb up, do you start losing muscle?



Providing protein and fat intake is sufficent, why would you say you start to lose muscle tissue without a carb up? I don't agree with that at all. You would just stay in keto and be burning fat not muscle tissue.

Posts: 6

[skelooth]

Originally Posted by StevenW

Quote:
Originally Posted by wine
if you skip the carb up, do you start losing muscle?



Providing protein and fat intake is sufficent, why would you say you start to lose muscle tissue without a carb up? I don't agree with that at all. You would just stay in keto and be burning fat not muscle tissue.

actually, prolonged ketosis without a carb up is extremely catabolic to muscle tissue.

[StevenW]

WOW 3,462 posts I'm impressed. Thanks skelooth I didn't realize that. I've been in Keto for awhile now and I have been increasing my weights and gained muscle on 50 grams of carbs a day eating clean with a cheat day once in awhile.

[chimponarope]

Originally Posted by StevenW

cheat day once in awhile.

AKA a shoddy carb up

[StevenW]

Originally Posted by chimponarope

AKA a shoddy carb up ;)

You're right. :) Although it's more fruit than anything and I know that's not good for a carb up. For some reason I just can't handle the rice, potatoes, pasta etc. It really bogs me down so I've been trying to keep on more of an even keel with the macros. I just seem to do better that way.

[Kiwi_Fella]

Originally Posted by StevenW

You're right. Although it's more fruit than anything and I know that's not good for a carb up. For some reason I just can't handle the rice, potatoes, pasta etc. It really bogs me down so I've been trying to keep on more of an even keel with the macros. I just seem to do better that way.

You need the carb-up bro. You need that source of energy to fuel your workouts through the week. Not sure what your goals are but if your trying to maintain/add muscle and lose fat your going to need those carbs on the weekend.

Anyway, by the time Saturday comes round my body is absolutley starved of carbs It would capitulate if I didnt feed it them.

[wine]

ok..i dont understand...i eat carbs on the weekends..my body uses carbs during my workouts during the week?...why doesnt my body use up all the glycogen the 1st day i stop eating carbs?

[skelooth]

Originally Posted by wine

ok..i dont understand...i eat carbs on the weekends..my body uses carbs during my workouts during the week?...why doesnt my body use up all the glycogen the 1st day i stop eating carbs?

because it just doesn't work that way

You have PLENTY of glycogen for daily regular activities (walking, sitting, working, etc). We as weight lifters only get depleted of glycogen because we lift heavy plates 2-5x a week. If you're not lifting weights, there's no need to have carb ups.

As for the cardio issue, cardio uses liver glycogen which is the same but different.

[wine]

...but I thought we wanted glycogen depletion so we can get into ketosis?

[chimponarope]

Originally Posted by wine

...but I thought we wanted glycogen depletion so we can get into ketosis?

Liver glycogen

[wine]

so muscle glycogen doesnt get used when u dont eat carbs but liver glycogen will and itll put you in ketosis and yet ur muscles will still have glycogen to fuel workouts....do i have it right?

[wine]

egg noodles..ok for carb up?

[Eileen]

Originally Posted by wine

so muscle glycogen doesnt get used when u dont eat carbs but liver glycogen will and itll put you in ketosis and yet ur muscles will still have glycogen to fuel workouts....do i have it right?

Yep, that's it. And then you pound your muscles as hard as possible, so that when you carb-up, they super-compensate by grabbing as much glycogen as possible, so that you can do it even harder next week.

And egg noodles are fine, just stick to a low-fat sauce.

[pack]

How many carbs do you eat on the weekends? I eat no carbs tues-fri and 1200 grams on sat another 400 sun and 150 on mon. Its from that ultimate diet 2. So far ive lost fat, 6-8 pounds, and no size or stregnth.

[Scott LaPierre]

Originally Posted by skelooth

actually, prolonged ketosis without a carb up is extremely catabolic to muscle tissue.

It's not that I don't believe this is true, but could you please show me the research/evidence supporting this claim?

Thanks Skelooth.

[Scott LaPierre]

Originally Posted by Kiwi_Fella

You need the carb-up bro. You need that source of energy to fuel your workouts through the week.

How could the carbs from the carb-up be fueling your workouts "through the week"? If you're back in ketosis in a couple of days, that must mean the carbs from your carb-up have been depleted, and you're no longer using them to fuel your workouts, right? I could understand if you said those carbs fuel your workouts for the weekend, or maybe up to Monday or Tuesday, but the whole week? Would you please explain that to me if I'm missing something?

Thanks Kiwi Fella.

[Eileen]

After the carb-up, you try to eat and exercise (usually cardio) to deplete liver glycogen as quickly as possible to get back into ketosis. But your muscles are still full of glycogen from the carb-up, and will generally stay that way long enough for you to get down to the gym and pound them hard.

That's why people who work one bodypart each week, and do a depletion workout as well, find that the depletion is hardship compared to the original workout - the glycogen is gone and lifting takes a lot more effort.

If for some reason you have to do a bodypart more than once a week, or do a lot of extra stuff as well, you may find you need to do some from of TKD, where you add in a small carb meal before the workout or you won't have the power to get through it.

[Haywood Jablome]

Originally Posted by Eileen

After the carb-up, you try to eat and exercise (usually cardio) to deplete liver glycogen as quickly as possible to get back into ketosis. But your muscles are still full of glycogen from the carb-up, and will generally stay that way long enough for you to get down to the gym and pound them hard.

That's why people who work one bodypart each week, and do a depletion workout as well, find that the depletion is hardship compared to the original workout - the glycogen is gone and lifting takes a lot more effort.

If for some reason you have to do a bodypart more than once a week, or do a lot of extra stuff as well, you may find you need to do some from of TKD, where you add in a small carb meal before the workout or you won't have the power to get through it.

So, you're essentially saying that the muscle glycogen is only depeleted from that particular muscle group that you've worked? Do you have studies saying this? Because I've seen studies that when refilling muscle glycogen its not necessarily to the particular muscle that's been worked.

[Eileen]

Can you post me some details of those studies? I'm going on what studies I've seen, and how I feel when I do various things or combinations of things (if there's a stupid way to do something, I'll find it.)

My personal experience is that after a carb-up, I can do one HARD workout per bodypart, even if it is some days after, but then things start to go downhill. I can still do it, but it hurts a lot more.

[Haywood Jablome]

Originally Posted by Eileen

Can you post me some details of those studies? I'm going on what studies I've seen, and how I feel when I do various things or combinations of things (if there's a stupid way to do something, I'll find it.)
.

Sure, I'll try and find it tomorrow night. I think it was in one of the epic high GI vs low GI threads with Bobo from AM.

[Scott LaPierre]

Originally Posted by Eileen

After the carb-up, you try to eat and exercise (usually cardio) to deplete liver glycogen as quickly as possible to get back into ketosis. But your muscles are still full of glycogen from the carb-up, and will generally stay that way long enough for you to get down to the gym and pound them hard.

That's why people who work one bodypart each week, and do a depletion workout as well, find that the depletion is hardship compared to the original workout - the glycogen is gone and lifting takes a lot more effort.

If for some reason you have to do a bodypart more than once a week, or do a lot of extra stuff as well, you may find you need to do some from of TKD, where you add in a small carb meal before the workout or you won't have the power to get through it.

Are you saying you can go in to ketosis when your muscles are full of glycogen, as long as your liver is empty of glycogen? Is that correct?

So when we do cardio or exercise, what is being depleted: muscle or liver glycogen or both?

Also, if anyone has any studies supporting their responses, that would be great.

Thanks ahead of time.

[Eileen]

Cardio depletes liver glycogen, not muscle. In fact, just living depletes liver glycogen. Cardio just does it quicker. Ketosis is when your liver has run out of available glycogen (what's stored in your muscles isn't easily available) and has to start breaking down fats to use for energy instead.

[Scott LaPierre]

Originally Posted by Eileen

Cardio depletes liver glycogen, not muscle. In fact, just living depletes liver glycogen. Cardio just does it quicker. Ketosis is when your liver has run out of available glycogen (what's stored in your muscles isn't easily available) and has to start breaking down fats to use for energy instead.

Can you give me a pretty good guideline on the carb-up Eileen? In terms of length and how many carbs to take in? Thank you.

[Eileen]

The carb-up is probably the thing that varies most on a ckd, so there's a certain amount of trial and error in finding out what works best for you. As a general rule, the harder you work, and the more muscle you carry, the more carbs you can eat and utilise without overspill.

If you don't know how you react, I'd suggest starting with a one day carb-up, where you eat around 50% above maintenance, with protein the same as normal, fats as low as possible (but definitely less than your weight in kilos) and the rest carbs. If you have a problem with carbs, or are female, or don't lift hard, I'd keep it even lower than that. If you are carrying serious muscle, then you could go more.

A lot of people treat the carb-up as an excuse to pig out on junk food, but I find I have to keep it really clean - lean meat or fish, low-fat dairy with lots of root veg and whole grain cereals. Other good carb-up foods are sushi, mashed potato, wholegrain or rye bread, oatmeal, fat-free yogurt, low-fat chili con carne, stuff like that.

[Haywood Jablome]

Originally Posted by Eileen

Can you post me some details of those studies? I'm going on what studies I've seen, and how I feel when I do various things or combinations of things (if there's a stupid way to do something, I'll find it.)

My personal experience is that after a carb-up, I can do one HARD workout per bodypart, even if it is some days after, but then things start to go downhill. I can still do it, but it hurts a lot more.

Eileen, here's the one I was referring to:



Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.