can you mix creatine, whey, and caffine together?

[raymondh]

if you mixed them up, would they be any different? I'm talking about just powders with powders.

[hxcBB]

well first id like to know how you have 2,000 post and are still asking these questions.

[TheRussian]

No, your shaker bottle will detonate, coating you in burning napalm.

But honestly, you can mix them together just fine...but think about what these supplements do:

Creatine: requires water to transport phosphocreatine into muscle cells.

Caffeine: a diuretic, depletes water from your system

So, if I were you and mixing these 2 supplements together, you could probably get by just increasing your daily water intake. Although, If you were only taking the caffeine as part of a post work-out shake then I wouldn't even worry about additional water as the effect on creatine stores is probably negligible.

[PSKlifter]

drop the caffeine

[raymondh]

No, your shaker bottle will detonate, coating you in burning napalm.

But honestly, you can mix them together just fine...but think about what these supplements do:

Creatine: requires water to transport phosphocreatine into muscle cells.

Caffeine: a diuretic, depletes water from your system

So, if I were you and mixing these 2 supplements together, you could probably get by just increasing your daily water intake. Although, If you were only taking the caffeine as part of a post work-out shake then I wouldn't even worry about additional water as the effect on creatine stores is probably negligible.

what if I take a lot of water?

[raymondh]

what if I take a lot of water?

on another note, I've seen people take caffeine to get a jump start pre workout as well as their creatine. What if they are only using creatine as an ATP facilitator, would caffine in this case actually minimize bloat?

[PSKlifter]

on another note, I've seen people take caffeine to get a jump start pre workout as well as their creatine. What if they are only using creatine as an ATP facilitator, would caffine in this case actually minimize bloat?

not only does caffeine effect creatine effectiveness it can also spike cortisol levels and thus lead to a rasie in bf, especially in the lower ab area.

[Flagg3]

well first id like to know how you have 2,000 post and are still asking these questions.

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

[PSKlifter]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

[Garage81]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

Wow, thorough.

[raymondh]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

1. This is an online forum. Any discussion is valid, except for trolls.
2. Many of my posts are valid and have more merit than all the troll posts you see EVERYDAY
3. Me starting a supplement company? Not sure if you comprehend your own understanding, if I am asking all these dumb questions, I would not even think about starting my own supplement company
4. the DMT issue is more complicated than you assume.

Flagg. This is your last warning. SHUT THE **** UP and stop defaming me. Your post in reponse to this thread is as childish as the way you handle your emotions about my signature. My signature stays. No need to dig up all my past to make yourself feel better because you did not get your way.

[jkeithc82]

Interested in making an extra $3000+/month from home by working for a publically listed NYSE company? PM your e-mail or AIM address and we'll talk. U.S. Only.

www.futureworks.xs3.com Professional websites $200-$300 per project. No hourly rates.

Since it has been established that the signature will stay, I am wondering how successful you have been with this raymond?

[Flagg3]

3. Me starting a supplement company? Not sure if you comprehend your own understanding, if I am asking all these dumb questions, I would not even think about starting my own supplement company

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

4. the DMT issue is more complicated than you assume.

Real complicated. A 16 year old trying to sell steroids. That about sum it up?

Flagg. This is your last warning. SHUT THE **** UP and stop defaming me. Your post in reponse to this thread is as childish as the way you handle your emotions about my signature. My signature stays. No need to dig up all my past to make yourself feel better because you did not get your way.

Not sure if you understand the definition of defamation my young friend, but you can't be defamed if your being quoted with the truth.

I can post messages referring to your small winky all day long if I'd like to. It's not my fault that you posted it online.

Oh, and keep the signature. Ignoring the fact that you can't even spell the word publicly, it's obviously working out really well for you. That extra $3,000 per month isn't quite enough to live on in high school, eh? Good thing you've now also got that extra $80 per week working at the Vitamin Shoppe.

Flagg

[Pat Bateman]

not only does caffeine effect creatine effectiveness it can also spike cortisol levels and thus lead to a rasie in bf, especially in the lower ab area.

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

[NoNameNecessary]

Actually, caffeine has no effect on the affectiveness of creatine. Although, they do opposite things, one does not inhibit the other. I just wouldn't reccomend taking them at the exact same times, but one in the morning (caffeine per say) and the other Pre or post workout (your creatine), would be fine. Secondly, I would reccomend keeping the caffeine to a minimum. I do two tablets in the morning, and creatine pre-workout, and it works just fine.

[balplayer0]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

um BURN hahahahaha

[PSKlifter]

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

caffeine and creatine:

Results published in the Journal of Applied Physiology

Bethesda, MD -- The serious athlete knows better than to rely just on a famous cereal to provide additional energy in preparation of a sporting event. Supplements have assumed an important role in today's training regimen. Some – such as anabolic steroids -- have been deemed illegal by most sports authorities. Others – such as caffeine and creatine -- are controversial yet presently allowed.

Background

Caffeine, the primary ingredient of coffee, is used as a central nervous system stimulant, diuretic, circulatory and respiratory stimulant, and as an adjunct in the treatment of headaches. Evidence shows that caffeine intensifies muscle contractions, masks the discomfort of physical exertion, and even speeds up the use of the muscles' short-term fuel stores. Some exercise physiologists believe that caffeine might improve performance by increasing fat oxidation and conserving muscle glycogen.

Creatine is used by athletes to increase lean body mass and improve performance in single and repetitive high-intensity, short-duration exercise tasks such as weightlifting, sprinting, and cycling. It is a popular nutritional supplement that is used by physically active people - from recreational exercisers to Olympic and professional athletes. According to a recent survey, 28 percent of athletes in an NCAA Division IA program reported using creatine. The creatine that is normally present in human muscle may come from two potential sources: dietary (animal flesh) and internally manufactured.

The purpose of creatine supplementation is to increase either total creatine stores or phosphocreatine (PCr) stores within muscle. Supplementation increases the rate of resynthesis of creatine phosphate following exercise. Various studies have shown increased muscle PCr levels after supplementing with 20-30 grams of creatine monohydrate daily.

Creatine supplementation has also been known to shorten relaxation time during intermittent maximal iosometric muscle contraction. This shortened time, coupled with a creatine loaded muscle facilitates calcium absorption into the sarcoplasmic reticulum (the endoplasmic reticulum of skeletal and cardiac muscle). However, some believe that caffeine intake enhances calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

The Study

This has lead a research team from Belgium to suggest that the combined effects of creatine and caffeine supplementation may be counterproductive to creatine’s effect on muscle relaxation time. The authors of the study, "Opposite Actions of Caffeine and Creatine on Muscle Relaxation Time in Humans" are P. Hespel, B. Op 'T Eijnde, and M. Van Leemputte, all from the Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium. Their findings appear in the February 2002 edition of the Journal of Applied Physiology.

Methodology

Ten physical education students (nine men and one woman) participated in the study. They were told to abstain from medication and caffeine intake one week prior to the experiment. The subjects were additionally asked to avoid changes in their level of physical activity and diet during the 25-week duration of the study. In this double blind experiment, the subjects performed the exercise test before and after creatine supplementation, short-term caffeine intake, creatine supplementation in the short term, acute caffeine intake, or a placebo.

This study required the random assignment of the students into five experimental protocols, each lasting eight days. Three elements were measured during an experiment consisting of 30 intermittent contractions of quadriceps entailing two seconds of stimulation and two seconds of rest. Measurements included maximum torque (Tmax), contraction time (CT) from 0.25 to 0.75 of Tmax, and relaxation time (RT) from 0.75 to 0.25 of max.

Results

Key findings of this study included:

a confirmation of the fact that oral creatine supplementation shortens muscle relaxation time in humans: relation time was reduced by five percent and was significantly shorter than after the placebo; discovery that the intake of caffeine, combined with a daily creatine supplement, counteracted the beneficial effects of creatine intake on relaxation time and fatigue enhanced this inhibitory effect; and the observation that caffeine reduces the functional capacity of sacroplasmic reticulum calcium ATPase. Conclusion

The researchers believe that the findings from this experiment offer indirect evidence that suggests that facilitation of muscle relaxation may be important to the ergogenic action of creatine supplementation as well as power production during sprint exercises.

However, for the athlete in training, the key finding is that sustained caffeine intake, over a three-day period, negates the benefits of creatine supplements.

[PSKlifter]

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

From one of my previous posts regarding the cortisol issue.

Increased Cortisol Levels Lead to Abdominal Obesity

Chronically elevated blood cortisol levels that are caused by frequent stress or regular caffeine or coffee intake lead to an increased buildup of fat in the abdominal area; this type of weight gain further stimulates the release of additional stress hormones.12

Caffeine Exacerbates Insulin Resistance Syndrome

Caffine ingestion contributes to insulin resistance and impairs glucose and insulin homeostasis as part of the stress response.18, 19 Even moderate amounts of coffee can have this effect.20
Obesity, high blood pressure, impaired glucose metabolism and elevated LDL and lowered HDL blood lipids cluster to generate insulin resistance syndrome. Stress and the release of corticosteroids contribute to the pathogenesis of this syndrome. When people with this syndrome drink coffee as a weight-loss aid, it negatively affects all the conditions associated with this syndrome. 21, 22
Drinking coffee can cause insomnia and sleep deprivation, both of which have been found to increase insulin resistance.23 People who are deprived of adequate deep sleep, and are in situations of sleep debt have lower levels of glucose tolerance, greater insulin resistance, increased concentrations of blood cortisol and stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.24, 25

References:
12. Dallman, M.F., la Fleur, S.E., Pecoraro, N.C., Gomez, F., Houshyar, H., Akana, S.F. 2004. Minireview: glucocorticoids--food intake, abdominal obesity, and wealthy nations in 2004. Endocrinology. 145(6): 2633-8.
18. Petrie, H.J., Chown, S.E., Belfie, L.M., Duncan, A.M., McLaren, D.H., Conquer, J.A. and Graham, T.E. 2004. Caffeine ingestion increases the insulin response to an oral-glucose-tolerance test in obese men before and after weight loss. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 80(1):22-8.
19. Graham, T.E., Sathasivam, P., Rowland, M., Marko, N., Greer, F. and Battram, D. 2001. Caffeine ingestion elevates plasma insulin response in humans during an oral glucose tolerance test. Canadian journal of physiology and pharmacology. 78(7):559-65.
20. Keijzers, G.B., De Galan, B.E., Tack, C.J. and Smits, P. 2002. Caffeine can decrease insulin sensitivity in humans. Diabetes Care. 25(2):364-9.
21. Natali, A. and Ferrannini, E. 2004. Hypertension, insulin resistance, and the metabolic syndrome. Endocrinology and metabolism clinics of North America. 33(2):417-29.
22. Rosmond, R. 2005. Role of stress in the pathogenesis of the metabolic syndrome. Psychoneuroendocrinology. 30(1):1-10.
23. Boutrel, B. and Koob, G.F. 2004. What keeps us awake: the neuropharmacology of stimulants and wakefulness-promoting medications. Sleep. 27(6): 1181-94.
24. Spiegel, K., Leproult, R. and Van Cauter, E. 1999. Impact of sleep debt on metabolic and endocrine function. Lancet. 354(9188): 1435-9.
25. VanHelder, T., Symons, J.D. and Radomski, M.W. 1993. Effects of sleep deprivation and exercise on glucose tolerance. Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine. 64(6):487-92.

[raymondh]

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?



Real complicated. A 16 year old trying to sell steroids. That about sum it up?



Not sure if you understand the definition of defamation my young friend, but you can't be defamed if your being quoted with the truth.

I can post messages referring to your small winky all day long if I'd like to. It's not my fault that you posted it online.

Oh, and keep the signature. Ignoring the fact that you can't even spell the word publicly, it's obviously working out really well for you. That extra $3,000 per month isn't quite enough to live on in high school, eh? Good thing you've now also got that extra $80 per week working at the Vitamin Shoppe.

Flagg

I'm not you understand, my friend, what defamation is. If you would like an answer, I'm sure my lawyer could explain and demonstrate the essence. Becareful what you say Flagg, even if it is on the internet.

This conversation is over. If you would like to continue over this matter, you'll be hearing from my lawyer.



Good post PSK in regards to the research.

[Flagg3]

I'm not you understand, my friend, what defamation is.

Umm... Huh?

If you would like an answer, I'm sure my lawyer could explain and demonstrate the essence. Becareful what you say Flagg, even if it is on the internet.

This conversation is over. If you would like to continue over this matter, you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

Sure, have him give me a call. Oh wait, your in high school, live with your parents and earn $7 per hour. While your saving your pennies, let me list for you the 3 legal defenses against defamation:

* what you said was true;

* you had a duty to provide information;

* you were expressing an opinion.

But, let's forget about the fact that everything that I post is either true or my opinion, and also let's forget about the fact that your a minor with no reputation to slander anyway, and we have one more very important fact.

YOU CAN'T SLANDER SOMEONE'S ONLINE HANDLE. What, are you upset that I have forever slandered the username "raymondh"? No one knows (or cares) who you really are, and therefore, you can't be legally defamed.

Sorry to burst your bubble raymond, but as long as you post stupid crap and continue to spam these forums with your signature, prepare to keep on being flamed.

Flagg

[pu12en12g]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

^^^^^

BINGO

Good job troll hunter ! !

[jkeithc82]

Sure, have him give me a call. Oh wait, your in high school, live with your parents and earn $7 per hour. While your saving your pennies, let me list for you the 3 legal defenses against defamation:

* what you said was true;

* you had a duty to provide information;

* you were expressing an opinion.

But, let's forget about the fact that everything that I post is either true or my opinion, and also let's forget about the fact that your a minor with no reputation to slander anyway, and we have one more very important fact.

YOU CAN'T SLANDER SOMEONE'S ONLINE HANDLE. What, are you upset that I have forever slandered the username "raymondh"? No one knows (or cares) who you really are, and therefore, you can't be legally defamed.

Sorry to burst your bubble raymond, but as long as you post stupid crap and continue to spam these forums with your signature, prepare to keep on being flamed.

Flagg

<img src="http://www.maj.com/gallery/donotdisturb/SW-pics/stallowned.jpg">

[jkeithc82]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...6969&p=5275875

Damn Flagg, I didn't see your signature before I ordered Rice Olig. that I just reviewed. Live and learn I guess. Good work though!

[armz_ha]

He starts A LOT of stupid threads, usually about how his penis hurts when he pulls his foreskin back and various other 'too much information' threads. He also seems to believe that cardio will make you taller and that pills will make your penis bigger.

His signature claims that you can make $3,000+ per month working from home, and yet he just recently applied for a job at Vitamin Shoppe earning a whopping $7 per hour.

On top of that, the main reason that he has been starting all of these stupid threads recently is that he wants to open his own supplement company. (I guess he got the urge after he made a bit of money selling people bulk DMT powder after Ergomax was first discontinued.)

Oh yeah, one more thing. He just turned 17 in August.

Flagg

funny LMAO