Big cat, PA, WL, All, I need some help with the science behind....

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 08:16 PM

... what the hormonal mix in my body would have caused my prostate to go haywire. I think it's both Estrogen and DHT related. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELP ME WITH THIS!!!!!!

I did an 8 week cycle of:

Week 1-2: 1-AD

Week 3-4: Tren X

Week 5-8: ONE + and 3Alpha the last 2 weeks.

Did high dosages across the board.

I was fine until I stopped and came off the cycle.

What is going on in my body chemistry?

I did Nolva and Armidex post cycle.

Thanks for your help.

Jake

2demon2 · 09-10-2002, 08:18 PM

What were your dosages? How old are you?

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 08:22 PM

I did about 600 a day of 1 AD and standard doses of tren upping it at the end and then standard dosing of ONE+ going max dosages at the the end with a couple hundred a day of 3Alpha. I am 29 years old.

K (same) · 09-10-2002, 08:48 PM

Jake,

I wasn't gonna post, but I think this info may help you with your medical condition. Good luck my friend.

Ken

Calcium D-Glucarate

Description:

Calcium-D-Glucarate helpa the body excrete excess levels of estradiol It is very effective nutrient for removing toxins, carcinogens, and excess steroid hormones. It is being studied effects for preventing lung, prostate, and breast cancers.

Calcium D-Glucarate is the calcium salt if D-glucaric acid, a naturally occurring substance found in humans and in many plants. Calcium D- Glucarate has been shown to be an effective detoxifying agent through its effects on glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is quantitatively one of the most important Phase II conjugation pathways for the detoxication and excretion of xenobiotics, lipid soluble toxins, and steroid hormones. The final rate of elimination of toxic chemicals which undergo glucuronidation is measured not only by the rate of conjugation with glucuronic acid but also by the rate of de- glucuronidation by beta-glucuronidase. Beta-glucuronidase, coming largely from intestinal bacteria, cleaves the glucuronic acid from the glucuronide allowing the toxin or conjugated hormone to be reabsorbed by the ileal mucosa. Calcium D-Glucarate increase net glucuronidation by inhibiting beta-glucuronidase. In animal models, oral administration of calcium D-glucarate results in a 50% inhibition of beta-glucuronidase for 5 hours.

The effect of Calcium D-Glucarate on reducing serum estrogen levels may help to accounts for the results from a group of animal studies evaluating the effect of Calcium D-Glucarate on mammary cancer, where 50-70% reductions of tumor formation have been reported. In rats fed a calcium glucarate fortified diet, researchers found that serum estradiol levels were decreased by 23% and the urinary excretion of 17-ketosteroids were decreased by over 50%.

References

1. Walaszek Z, Hanausek-Walaszek M, Minto JP, Webb TE, Dietary glucarate as anti-promoter of 7, 12-dimethylbenz[a]anthracene-induced mammary tumorigenesis. Carcinogenesis. 7(9):1463-6, 1986.

2. Amdur MO, Doull J, Klassen CD, Casarett and Doull's Toxicology: The Basic Science of Poisons, 4th ed., Mcgraw-Hill, New York, 1991.

3. Dwivedi C, Heck WJ, Downie AA, Larroya S, Webb TE, Effect of calcium glucarate on beta-gluconidase activity and glucarate content of certain vegetables and fruits. Biochemical Medicine and Metabolic Biology. 43(2):83-92, 1990.

4. Heerdt AS, Young CW, Borgen PI, Calcium glucarate as a chemopreventive agent in breast cancer. Israel Journal of Medical Sciences. 31(2-3):101-5, 1995.

5. Walaszek Z, Potential use of D-glucaric acid derivatives in cancer prevention. Cancer Letters. 54(1-2):1-8, 1990.

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 08:53 PM

Thanks K. So help me out with the science please. I understand that it would decrease the levels of excess steroids in the body but is it safe to say that it "excess" levels of steriods that is causing the inflamation?

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 08:54 PM

BTW K that is a great post; why wouldn't you post??? Your input is always valued by me.

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 09:02 PM

One question I have is, is it the use of any androgen or specific one that could have caused the problem?? Anyone??? Please!!!

K (same) · 09-10-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windwords7
Thanks K. So help me out with the science please. I understand that it would decrease the levels of excess steroids in the body but is it safe to say that it "excess" levels of steriods that is causing the inflamation?

Most likely excess hormones causing a "flare up", which is typically the case with prostate. But I am no doctor for sure.

I wasn't gonna post b/c my mind is not functioning at its best

. But for what it is worth,I don't want to just turn my back on a bro.

dio · 09-10-2002, 09:19 PM

Jake,

It was probably a combination of your personal physiology (and how you react to androgens) and the fact that you used very androgenic prohormones/steroids. The more androgenic, the more likely the chances of side effects. Most people here worry more about their hair and skin then their prostates -- but I'm sure that quite a few experience swelling.

Par Deus · 09-10-2002, 10:37 PM

Both androgens and estrogens are implicated in prostrate hypertrophy -- I don't really know any more than that. Pretty sure PA knows more -- think he may have written an article on the subject.

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 11:13 PM

Ok, I am getting a better idea now. It looks like I am suffering from benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) as a result of high levels of DHT from the 3 Alpha and the other adndrogens from the 1-Test.

Finasteride is used to treat this often times. "Finasteride prevents the male hormone testosterone from being converted into its active form, and this reduces the size of the prostate. However you may need to take it for 6 months before your symptoms improve, and it has the greatest effect in men with the largest prostates. A small percentage of men who take finasteride experience sexual problems."

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 11:15 PM

PLEASE READ AND COMMENT ON HOW TO ADDRESS THIS!

The cause of BPH is not well understood. For centuries, it has been known that BPH occurs mainly in older men and that it doesn't develop in men whose testes were removed before puberty. For this reason, some researchers believe that factors related to aging and the testes may spur the development of BPH.

Throughout their lives, men produce both testosterone, an important male hormone, and small amounts of estrogen, a female hormone. As men age, the amount of active testosterone in the blood decreases, leaving a higher proportion of estrogen. Studies done with animals have suggested that BPH may occur because the higher amount of estrogen within the gland increases the activity of substances that promote cell growth.

Another theory focuses on dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a substance derived from testosterone in the prostate, which may help control its growth. Most animals lose their ability to produce DHT as they age. However, some research has indicated that even with a drop in the blood's testosterone level, older men continue to produce and accumulate high levels of DHT in the prostate. This accumulation of DHT may encourage the growth of cells. Scientists have also noted that men who do not produce DHT do not develop BPH.

Some researchers suggest that BPH may develop as a result of "instructions" given to cells early in life. According to this theory, BPH occurs because cells in one section of the gland follow these instructions and "reawaken" later in life. These "reawakened" cells then deliver signals to other cells in the gland, instructing them to grow or making them more sensitive to hormones that influence growth.

windwords7 · 09-10-2002, 11:21 PM

Now I'm confused!!

==========================================
Article by Patrick Arnold

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 08:51 AM

Would taking something like Nolva help with the estrogen related issues that result in BPH?

Patrick Arnold · 09-11-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by windwords7
Ok, I am getting a better idea now. It looks like I am suffering from benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) as a result of high levels of DHT from the 3 Alpha and the other adndrogens from the 1-Test.

Finasteride is used to treat this often times. "Finasteride prevents the male hormone testosterone from being converted into its active form, and this reduces the size of the prostate. However you may need to take it for 6 months before your symptoms improve, and it has the greatest effect in men with the largest prostates. A small percentage of men who take finasteride experience sexual problems."

Do a medline search on prostate and 3alpha-androstanediol (also known as 5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov./entrez/query.fcgi

You may see cause for concern

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold

Do a medline search on prostate and 3alpha-androstanediol (also known as 5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov./entrez/query.fcgi

You may see cause for concern

Ok Pat. I have done that. Can you give me some feedback about what guys are doing once they have BPH due to the factors of DHT or Estrogen. I know that something in my cycle casued it and now I want to fix it.

Thanks for you input.

Jake

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 11:50 AM

So if you are prone to BPH (I had no idea that I was but apparently I am) what PH's would be best to take to avoid such sides?

4ad and 19nor?

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 11:51 AM

Does this play a role?

=======================================
Steroid 5alpha-reductases and 3alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases: key enzymes in androgen metabolism.

Jin Y, Penning TM.

Department of Pharmacology, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, 3620 Hamilton Walk, Philadelphia, PA, 19104-6084, USA.

Androgen action in mammals can be regulated at the pre-receptor level by the intracellular formation and degradation of potent androgens, such as 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (5alpha-DHT). In androgen target tissues (e.g. prostate), 5alpha-DHT is formed from circulating testosterone by the action of the type 2 steroid 5alpha-reductase (5alpha-R) and its action is terminated by the action of a reductive 3alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3alpha-HSD) which forms the weak androgen 3alpha-androstanediol. Oxidative 3alpha-HSD isoforms, however, can provide an alternative source of potent androgens by converting 3alpha-androstanediol to 5alpha-DHT. Working in concert, 5alpha-Rs and 3alpha-HSDs determine the amount and the type of androgen available for the androgen receptor and hence affect transcription of genes under androgen control. In peripheral tissues (e.g. liver), type 1 5alpha-R and reductive 3alpha-HSD isoforms work consecutively to eliminate androgens and protect against hormone excess. Thus, different 5alpha-R and 3alpha-HSD isoforms participate in distinct anabolic and catabolic processes and their important roles in androgen action render them drug targets for the treatment of androgen-dependent diseases.

Spnkthru_AST · 09-11-2002, 12:13 PM

i have you gone to a doctor or considered it?
not to be an ******* but I think it might be a better idea
then scouring the internet looking for ways to solve a potential
serious problem

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spnkthru_AST
i have you gone to a doctor or considered it?
not to be an ******* but I think it might be a better idea
then scouring the internet looking for ways to solve a potential
serious problem

Of course I have. Your not talking to a newbie. I need to understand the science because Dr.'s don't have the first clue unless they are very specialized in the matter. My Dr. litterally had ZERO to offer on the matter of BPH and adrogens.

I have taken the full course of medications that they have prescribed but they don't understand what they are treating.

It is each person's responsbility to take their own health care seriously. If you only go the Dr. and trust only what they have to say on the matter you will be ruined in no time.

iamthewalrus15 · 09-11-2002, 02:00 PM

Win, as you recall i'm on the same prostate boat as you. First we have to realize it is definatly our gentic makeup. Second its definatly related to androgens. Why this all happens? Yeah I'm with you and my doctor, no damn clue. My doc actually said "its cause you probably wait to long to pee when you have to do" which is of course bull****. Its just genetics man, we just cant handle it. I bought 1000, 160mg saw palmento pills from kilosports for 50 bucks. I'm going to load up and try another 1-test cycle soon.

anyway,, man let me know if you learn anything else

Patrick Arnold · 09-11-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windwords7

Ok Pat. I have done that. Can you give me some feedback about what guys are doing once they have BPH due to the factors of DHT or Estrogen. I know that something in my cycle casued it and now I want to fix it.

Thanks for you input.

Jake

I don't want to tell you how to treat an illness on the internet. I can get in big trouble doing that.

HOwever I will say that 5alpha reductase inhibitors are commonly used to treat BPH, and aromatase inhibitors show some promise as well.

Or, just stopping hormonal products may result in a remission of BPH (that is, assuming you actually have BPH)

Other than that, I recommend you see a doctor if you have BPH.

Patrick Arnold · 09-11-2002, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by iamthewalrus15
Win, as you recall i'm on the same prostate boat as you. First we have to realize it is definatly our gentic makeup. Second its definatly related to androgens. Why this all happens? Yeah I'm with you and my doctor, no damn clue. My doc actually said "its cause you probably wait to long to pee when you have to do" which is of course bull****. Its just genetics man, we just cant handle it. I bought 1000, 160mg saw palmento pills from kilosports for 50 bucks. I'm going to load up and try another 1-test cycle soon.

anyway,, man let me know if you learn anything else

Actually, I have to get up and pee about 5 times a night. I suppose I might have an enlarged prostate too. I have been peeing like this for so many years though that I guess I just don't even think about it

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold

I don't want to tell you how to treat an illness on the internet. I can get in big trouble doing that.

HOwever I will say that 5alpha reductase inhibitors are commonly used to treat BPH, and aromatase inhibitors show some promise as well.

Or, just stopping hormonal products may result in a remission of BPH (that is, assuming you actually have BPH)

Other than that, I recommend you see a doctor if you have BPH.

That's cool I understand that you can not specifically treat ME. Can you enlighten me on what 5alpha reductase inhibitors and aromatase inhibitors are commonly used/widely available? I would appreciate it very much.

Patrick Arnold · 09-11-2002, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windwords7

That's cool I understand that you can not specifically treat ME. Can you enlighten me on what 5alpha reductase inhibitors and aromatase inhibitors are commonly used/widely available? I would appreciate it very much.

Proscar is the most commonly prescribed 5-AR for BPH. This is pretty common knowledge

Aromatase Inhibitors are not normally prescribed for BPH but the non-androgenic ones like arimidex and aromasin would be appropriate. I do not know what dosages would be optimal but likely the same dosages that are used for typical estrogen suppression

Not much more I can say about this

windwords7 · 09-11-2002, 04:21 PM

Thanks Pat. Im on a quick learning curve here. I still have some Armidex. I will check on the Proscar soon.

Jake

windwords7 · 09-12-2002, 06:45 PM

I have finally found some decent measure of success in my war against this enlarged prostate problem that I have been having. All the the things that I am taking are from the natural arena and would be qualified as supps. It's a boat load of stuff but it's working!

Here is the list:

Standardized Saw Palmeto

Standardized Pygeum

Opti Zinc and another source with Copper

Vitamin B6

Fiber

Selenium

4x6 Acidophillis

Quercitin with Bromelain

Internal Cleansing Program that has high levels of cleansing herbs and lots and lots of sources of fiber.

Like I said it's working and I have been off all meds and have been almost totally pain free with the other secondary issues being resolved as well!

MrTrap · 09-12-2002, 07:32 PM

Jake that is great news. Hope it lasts. Enjoy being healthy for a long while before you do any more chemistry experiments, OK?

Traps

windwords7 · 09-14-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrTrap
Jake that is great news. Hope it lasts. Enjoy being healthy for a long while before you do any more chemistry experiments, OK?

Traps

A quick update. I am definately turing the corner and getting better each day. I am doing that specific regemin of supps that I stated earlier and it is working. My times of swelling and pain are MUCH less and getting more infrequent each day.

I want to comment on the intense Herbal and Fiber Cleanse that I am doing in conjuction with the treatment of the prostate problem. I really think that this is having a tremendous effect on my overall recovery and health in general. My energy is through the roof, my mood is very much improved, my body's elimination systems seem much more effective than I can remember in some time. I feel much healthier as result.

For what its worth that's my 2cc's on the matter.

WW7

Bramble · 09-13-2008, 06:54 AM

i agree