Bulked up ecto's, how did you lose the fat?

[Joel H]

I'm an ecto, and I'm bulked up. I've tried various fat loss things, but as soon as I drop calories I seem to lose a lot of muscle. I'm starting to think that I need to keep my calories very close to my bulking diet, just slightly lower, and then do serious cardio to just burn the fat off. I can handle high volume and lots of training, I have a great recovery system and fast metabolism, but by simply cutting calories and doing 20-30 minutes of HIIT combined with aerobics, I'm losing too much muscle on about 500 cals below maintenance. Would it be better to go back up to maintenance levels and just do a lot of aerobics? For me I gain on 4500, maintenance is about 4000 calories a day, and 3500 is extremely catabolic. Any help would be appreciated.

[nithos]

#1 - Most people can't do 30 minutes of HIIT if done properly without dieing right on the spot. If you are doing it on the treadmill or eliptical, it is not HIIT. Sorry, I just speak the truth.

#2 - I would just stick to your typical maintanance/bulking routine, change your macro ratios around to be more conductive to cutting and then add some additional activity.

[turbos10]

[QUOTE=nithos]#1 - Most people can't do 30 minutes of HIIT if done properly without dieing right on the spot. If you are doing it on the treadmill or eliptical, it is not HIIT. Sorry, I just speak the truth.

[QUOTE]

How do you figure? I have been doing HIIT on an eliptical and I can say that it puts me down hard by the end. If you sprint at high resistance on an eliptical it is VERY taxing. Try sprinting at 230 strides/min. at the highest level and tell me it is not killer. I get to the point that I feel like collapsing and my stomach feels like it is about to chunk at the end of a 30 second sprint. After the sprint, just staying on the machine at 130 and lowest level is extremely hard. I cant imagine I could work out harder and not pass out.

[nithos]

If you sprint at high resistance on an eliptical it is VERY taxing. Try sprinting at 230 strides/min. at the highest level and tell me it is not killer.

That's what I do (maintain 225 for 30 sec, then 170 for 60 sec) in the winter when the streets are icy and I have to do my cardio in the gym. Honestly, it works up a good sweat, but it doesn't have me feeling like I am ready to die like jogging the curves, sprinting the straights.

Different fitness levels, I guess.

[dude544]

I'm an ecto, and I'm bulked up. I've tried various fat loss things, but as soon as I drop calories I seem to lose a lot of muscle. I'm starting to think that I need to keep my calories very close to my bulking diet, just slightly lower, and then do serious cardio to just burn the fat off. I can handle high volume and lots of training, I have a great recovery system and fast metabolism, but by simply cutting calories and doing 20-30 minutes of HIIT combined with aerobics, I'm losing too much muscle on about 500 cals below maintenance. Would it be better to go back up to maintenance levels and just do a lot of aerobics? For me I gain on 4500, maintenance is about 4000 calories a day, and 3500 is extremely catabolic. Any help would be appreciated.

Initially, you'll lose a lot of water.
Losing muscle/fat can be hard to judge. Some people think they're losing muscle due to size decreases on chest, arms, calves, etc. But a lot of the time this is just localized fat to that body part.

I'm not a big fan of HIIT. I'm pretty much an ecto, I did 20 mins jog pace cardio on a cross trainer in the morning, 15-20 mins after work, 3-4 times a week depending on how many weeks I was out.

I used to do HIIT & had no success. Lost muscle. I much prefer, especially since i lose fat easier, to put on the mini ipod & jog down on the cross trainer.

The first few weeks of cutting are the hardest (I actually think this is the point most people regret bulking for so long and gaining too much excess fat)

Make sure you drop your calories slow, don't start off on full blown cardio.. do 2-3 short, less intensive sessions a week.
During the first couple of weeks, Monitor your weight loss like you would monitor Tara Reid as your GF going out to a party with her girlfriends. The weight loss should be 1-1.5lbs a week.

I would try to lower the intensity of the cardio, take the time down a notch & monitor the calories from there. Big time cardio is only needed when your weight loss starts to slow. Some people don't do any cardio whatsoever.. I prefer to do cardio sessions due to the increase in calories it allows me to consume.. equalling more strength for the gym.

[Joel H]

Ok, I'm doing very close to HIIT. I ride my bike up serious hills with it on the highest hardest gear there is, and pump up as fast and hard as I can, while using the brakes to slow myself down, so that the pushing is very hard because I'm moving so slow. So I do at least 4-6 of these big hills, during my 25-30 minute rides... so the rest of it is aerobics level stuff. I'm not doing 30 seconds on 30 seconds off style... but there are 4-6 moments of all out effort that usually last 20-60 seconds depending on the hill I'm facing... so it's close IMO. I might try some stationary bike HIIT and see how that goes.

I think I just dropped calories too much. I was losing around 1/4 to 3/8" a week or something, and wanted more fat loss so I dropped calories again and started to really look like crap and lost more size. I really like HIIT, it has made me stronger on a calorie deficit consistently now for 6 weeks or so. I'm going to raise calories back up some, regain some lost muscle, and then just increase cardio slowly each week and see what affect that has.

[turbos10]

That's what I do (maintain 225 for 30 sec, then 170 for 60 sec) in the winter when the streets are icy and I have to do my cardio in the gym. Honestly, it works up a good sweat, but it doesn't have me feeling like I am ready to die like jogging the curves, sprinting the straights.

Different fitness levels, I guess.

True on the fitness levels. I have never really done anything other than 20-30 minutes low intensity on the eliptical, and I used to run when I was younger and lighter. When the eliptical stops kicking my butt and I am in better shape I may have to try sprints in the park running track.

[Joel H]

Dude544: I have looked at the fibrous carb diet, and just tried it some on my evening meals, and sometimes I feel sick from eating a whole can of green beans or something. I never eat vegetables hardly, except maybe some broccoli mixed in with my rice or something, so trying to eat a bunch of vegetables messes up my body, even if it's just one meal out of the day. I mean, I can eat a few mini carrots, a small pile of corn, but trying to eat a ton of any green veggie seems to make me ill for some reason.

And any time I lower calories much more than 3500 I start losing muscle size in a big way. I've been cutting all summer, aside from a few short mini bulks to restore some lost muscle, so I'm not new to cutting, nor cardio, so I don't think its initial water by any means that I'm losing. I did get sick last weekend, and I'm still battling, it so that had something to do with losing a little more muscle.

However, I think I am just going to have to take it slow. The problem with taking it slow, though, is it seems like you semi starve all week long, and then have 3-4 beers and a couple chips at a party or something on the weekend... and you've blown 90% of your fat loss for the week. For example, my stomach will go down 1/4 to 3/8" during the week... then come the weekend I'm not lifting or doing cardio, and I gain 1/4" back from doing nothing and eating less than normal, but might have 2 beers or something. Maybe it's beer bloat, but most the time I don't even do that, and still seem to gain over one tiny screwup, negating a week where I didn't make any muscular gains, and just barely lost some fat, so it's rather frustrating to only lose 1/8" a week or something after thinking I was down 3/8" to 1/2", and then seemingly nothing changed, yet my stomach blows back up.

So I thought I needed to lose more each day, so that one screw up or fluctuation would not do anything. Maybe I'm panicking, but instead of looking better, I look worse. I look fatter because my muscles area smaller, and the water in my mid section has dried up, but now my spare tire looks even bigger. It's horrible.

Rather than the fibrous diet, what about just eating more meat, and just a small amount of veggies?

Also I drink a lot of milk, is the simple sugars in milk bad for fat loss? I drink this stuff for every meal. I love it, and feel empty if I don't get my milk! Is it screwing up my effort to keep insulin lower at night, thus making me store more fat than I would if I replaced the milk calories with more lean meat and complex carbs?

[dude544]

Dude544: I have looked at the fibrous carb diet, and just tried it some on my evening meals, and sometimes I feel sick from eating a whole can of green beans or something. I never eat vegetables hardly, except maybe some broccoli mixed in with my rice or something, so trying to eat a bunch of vegetables messes up my body, even if it's just one meal out of the day. I mean, I can eat a few mini carrots, a small pile of corn, but trying to eat a ton of any green veggie seems to make me ill for some reason.

Don't worry. If you look at my thread.. I didn't follow it correctly.
I pretty much consumed mainly Broccoli only for those days.. hardly any green beans.
I refered to them more as 'low carb days' (which they pretty much are). One of the reasons it asks for mainly green veggie sources is due to the low calorie content when compared to foods like oatmeal, rice, startchy foods. I pretty much lowered my calories on these days, reducing any type of carb and increasing my greens slightly. The other days I refered to as 'bulking' days. I ate near enough(lower during the final weeks) what I would eat during my bulking cycles. I increased my breads, oatmeal, cereal, etc. intake.
I alternated higher carb days to fall under lagging body part training days.

Regarding milk, i'm personally cutting back. After hearing the amount of hormones, estrogen links, etc. in it.. I decided to have milk mainly for cereals & cut back from drinking glasses of the stuff.
I drank some milk during my higher carb days but you should limit the amount when cutting. It bloats you and it has simple sugars (as you stated).

[dude544]

Maybe it's beer bloat, but most the time I don't even do that, and still seem to gain over one tiny screwup, negating a week where I didn't make any muscular gains, and just barely lost some fat, so it's rather frustrating to only lose 1/8" a week or something after thinking I was down 3/8" to 1/2", and then seemingly nothing changed, yet my stomach blows back up.

too many carbohydrates will bloat you. I was always a lot leaner on my low carb days than my high carb days.
Regarding looking smaller yet fatter, this is common for the first few weeks.
You're losing water and fat. Unfortunately, fat from the arms, etc. are the first to go.. The stomach area can be stubborn.
If you bulked up for a long period of time.. you're going to have to think more longer term when it comes to cutting. Just be patient bro.

[ericTHEninja]

#1 - Most people can't do 30 minutes of HIIT if done properly without dieing right on the spot. If you are doing it on the treadmill or eliptical, it is not HIIT. Sorry, I just speak the truth.

I gotta disagree, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I do 10 min of intervals in the winter on a treadmill with 1 min off at 6.5 mph and 1 min on at 11.5-12.5 mph. Whether you consider those speeds HIIT or not is really up to the person's physical fitness level. I can say I've almost fallen off the treadmill at least 15 times in my last 3 months of dieting, but it's better than falling on my ass at 5 30 am on the icy streets of Vermont. I'd have to say, if you're going to puke or passout after intervals over a short period of time (like under 15-20 minutes) and you're in good shape, you can consider it HIIT. I've almost puked or passed out at least 15 times.

[Joel H]

So dude, your saying I can just eat less on the low carb days and I don't have to stuff a bunch of freaky veggies down? This would be better for me as I don't really like vegetables very much. I can handle some, and for health reasons I try to get a little bit, but to me I'd be better off just eating my protein and maybe a salad or some broccoli.. but not like tons of fibrous carbs like they suggest, screw that. So how many calories below the bulking level do you do?

Do you train on these low cal days?

If so, would it be ok to have my simple sugar huge pre workout shake and carbs for breakfast, so I can have good energy at the gym, then just go low carb the rest of the day?

Is it important to do cardio on your low carb days, or is that dangerous?

I train M,T,H,F.. so how would you work in your low carb days on a split like that?

[dude544]

So dude, your saying I can just eat less on the low carb days and I don't have to stuff a bunch of freaky veggies down? This would be better for me as I don't really like vegetables very much. I can handle some, and for health reasons I try to get a little bit, but to me I'd be better off just eating my protein and maybe a salad or some broccoli.. but not like tons of fibrous carbs like they suggest, screw that. So how many calories below the bulking level do you do?

Do you train on these low cal days?

If so, would it be ok to have my simple sugar huge pre workout shake and carbs for breakfast, so I can have good energy at the gym, then just go low carb the rest of the day?

Is it important to do cardio on your low carb days, or is that dangerous?

I train M,T,H,F.. so how would you work in your low carb days on a split like that?

I did low carb 3 days a week to start with (didn't want to lose weight too fast), then bumped it up to 4 days a week midway through. I made sure I only did one low carb day on a workout day & I didn't consume dextrose/glucose with my whey post workout for that day.
I did cardio on my low carb day due to those days falling under no training days (which would obviously mean cardio). During the later stages of dieting.. I did almost faint during cardio (b.sugar levels/lack of carbs combo).

Monday tuesday, 'hursday', friday?? If that H is thursday, you could low carb on saturday, sunday, monday to start with.

[Joel H]

I think as long as I carbed up on Monday before the workout, I'd be fine.. so then the rest of the week I'd be on a near bulking diet? How much is low carbs? Just drop my total by 500 calories? Like lets say on my high carb days, I'm eating around 4000 calories, should my low carb day be 3000, with the calorie drop coming from carbs? That would still be a fair amount of carbs, I certainly would still have some energy... does that sound ok, or do you go way way low?

I guess I could start with that, and see what happens, and then lower by 500 on the low carb days if I do not see results? Let me know what you think, now that I don't have to eat 10000 pounds of green beans and broccoli, it seems like something I could probably do.

[dude544]

need to drop more cals/carbs on that low carb day..3000 calories is too many, especially when taking in 4000 cals the other 4 days.|
You should be consuming around 2500 low carb day.

[Joel H]

Thanks dude544 for all your help. I have a very fast metabolsim (4500 to gain weight, 4000 maintenance, 3500 is slow fat loss) so I think I'll start with 3000 just to be safe. If I don't lose anything, fine, but it's better than losing muscle, the next weekend or 3 day cycle, I can try 2500, don't you think that might be the safe way? If I go to low I seem to lose muscle. Maybe it's just in my head, but I think I'll start with 3k just to be safe, I've taken plenty of time on this, another week of not losing any fat won't bother me at all, as I wouldn't mind regaining some lost size on high cals for a week or two... so thats the plan. I'll start with 3000 cals and see what happens, if I don't seem to lose much or any, I'll do 2500 next weekend. Better safe than sorry I'd think

[Joel H]

After revisiting your old threads Dude544... All I can say is I'm really excited to give carb cycling a shot. I returned to higher calories today and it was like sticking an air hose into my muscles and blowing me up, I looked huge like instantly! Amazing how different you look in a few hours of eating big. I figured I'll be on high cals today and tomorrow, and I'll just try sunday-monday on low carbs and see how that goes. With my freaky fast metabolism, 2 days might be plenty for me. I just don't want to lose muscle, so I'll play things safe, and gradually lower calories more on my low carb days and extend to perhaps 3 days of it if 2 isn't enough. If I don't lose, oh well, I'll be enjoying maintenance levels for a week or so until I get this right.

All I can say is man you look incredible, and what blows me away is you did it in like 6 weeks! You went from 228 to 205... I'd be happy to be a little leaner than you were in the 228 pics, so I can then return to bulking.. I hope this works well, I'd love to get down to a 34 or 33" stomach and then just do 2" bulks and cut it off again. Maybe I'll like it and I'll get utterly ripped like you did, lol... Anyhow, wish me luck, I'm going for it.

[Joel H]

Well all I did was start cutting carbs at night time, except for 2 cups of milk in my bed time shake, and the fat is coming off rapidly and predictably. I have lost 1/8" off my stomach measurement each morning since I started this, on Sunday, for a total of 3/8" fat loss. My arm measurement is holding around 17", 1/4" bigger than they were last week when I decided that things needed to change. My chest has even come up some. I'm eating more calories during the day to support my workouts and energy needs, then at night I just don't eat much if any carbs, lots of protein and a few big salads. I've read leafy green vegetables are great fat burners. Needless to say I'm really happy to be losing fat quicker than I was, and the diet is very easy to follow. My workouts have been better due to eating more carbs during the day when I need them, and by cutting them out at night when I'm inactive, I elminate any chance to store fat, get to my below maintenance level quickly, and also control insulin spikes by avoiding carbs, and burn fat by eating greens. This ROCKS so far.. hopefully it will keep up. At this pace I'll be losing close to an inch a week, which means I could bulk for 4 months to gain 2", lose 2" in 2-3 weeks, and be back to bulking! I'd rather be bulking 10-11 months a year than to bulk 4 cut 4!

Anyhow, I'm pretty excited to have found something that works well for me... now I just have to keep doing it for a while and reach my fat loss goals and I'm in good shape to bulk all winter

[corpsegrinder1]

HIIT is the best IMO I do it on alternate days

[deadforaminute]

Initially, you'll lose a lot of water.
Losing muscle/fat can be hard to judge. Some people think they're losing muscle due to size decreases on chest, arms, calves, etc. But a lot of the time this is just localized fat to that body part.

this

you might think you have a certain amount of lbm when you really have much lower lbm than you think. unless your ripped after loosing the weight , your not lean.. unless muscle definition screams at you in the mirror. your not lean

its important to understand that building muscle and filling muscle are 2 diff things. when your body is bloated way up you are much stronger. lean out and you loose strength. people say this is loosing muscle when in fact it is not. it is flattening out or depleting muscle of glycogen