Best rep range for gaining mass?

[gymjunkee01]

Hola Gents-

My boyfriend wants to get your all's opinion on something...

What do you think is the best rep range for gaining mass? 8-12, 4-6, etc.?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[ChelNam]

8-12 at least 65% of 1RM.

[powerman2000]

8-12 at least 65% of 1RM.

Winner

[Rane14]

lift heavy, in good form, fastest way to make gains while your body is in good condition.

[Celticfan]

The best way to gain mass is to eat like a beast.

[gymjunkee01]

The best way to gain mass is to eat like a beast.

Well, that my boyfriend I both know already... We're just looking for the best rep range. But thanks for your input!

[Mammoth3]

in my opinion, i do between 1 and 6.

example: bench press

set 1 = 175 for 4-6 reps (not failure)
set 2 = 185 for 4-6 reps (not failure)
set 3 = 215 for 3 reps (failure)

and the next week, i will try for 220 and do 2 or 3 reps.

[Malodrax]

8-12 is generally used for mass

[xXxCG1785xXx]

reps are a state of mind. it's not like ur body is gonna say..."oh! u only did 10 reps! i need you to do 12 to grow!" just use a good amount of weight and go to failure. obviously, if u can do anything over 12, u might be using to light of a weight. and if you can only get out 2-3 reps, well then your lifting to heavy. the key is to use a moderate-heavy weight at around 60-70% max rep strength. i've been certified by NASM as a trainer, and sure NASM says that 8-12 65% 1 RM is best...but it depends on you. That is a good range to fall in...but don't get too caught up in reps.

If u want max hypertrophy, be sure to isolate the muscle as much as possible, and to match the load line up, directly opposing the action of ur muscle. for example, a lot of people swear by preacher curls. if u break the exercise down, ur biceps are at an angle of approx. 45 degrees and resting on the pads, physics will show that the downward force of the barbell/dumbells is transferring down through your elbows and into the pad. that is why u will notice a lot of preacher curl pads have two raggedy holes where ur elbows usually sit. a lot of the weight gets dispersed before it even gets to your biceps. sure, you will feel some resistance, obviously, but it is not working ur muscle to its potential. think about it, ur biceps are pulling ur forearm upwards at an angle, so it makes sense that the load line (force) has to be directly opposing the force of ur biceps. therefore, the force, for max results, should be at 180 degrees from ur biceps (picture a circle with a line crossing straight through it...the diameter of the circle. now picture that line crossing a small dot in the center of the circle. from the dot to the left of the circle is the force of ur biceps, from the dot to the right of the circle is the force of the resistance opposing ur biceps). the best way to perform a preacher curl is to use cables instead of a barbell or dumbells. line up the cable at 180 degrees from ur biceps, and both ur biceps and the cable (load line) should make a straight line when ur arms are extended. u'll notice that u will have to use a lot less weight, and u'll feel less force driving ur elbows into the pad, as well as much more of a burn. for the most part, you should be able to apply this principle to any exercise. if the load line, or line of force is not directly in opposition to the agonist muscle, then u have to modify your stance or angle of ur body, whether u use cables or free weights.

this may seem like bull**** to you, or u may already do it, or u may know it but aren't paying attention to it at the gym, but i guarantee, if u at least try to lift this way, u will never go back. i've made more gains working out like this in a year, than i did in the 3 previous years of lifting before hand. i went from 195 to 208. the years before, i went from 180 to 195 (only 5 pounds a year!...opposed to 13 in one year!). and remember, if ur lifting naturally, eating right, and doing everything to the best of ur potential, 1 pound of solid muscle a month is all you can put on (and i'm talking muscle, not water retention or fat).

oh yes, and 1 more key point that will help ur lifting...most bodybuilders workout mainly in the saggital plane only (forward and back...i.e. nodding ur head "yes")...although some exercise are performed in the frontal plane...very few (side to side...i.e. moving ur head side to side and making ur ears touch ur shoulders). however, ur body moves in all planes...especially the transverse plane (rotational movements...left to right, right to left, etc....i.e. shaking ur head "no"), and a lot of people neglect to train their body in the transverse plane, leading to injury. one way you can train in the transverse plane is to train a key stabilizing muscle in ur body...the transversus abdominus (underneath ur rectus abdominis...running horizontal around ur body, starting from the midline of ur stomach and attaching in the back to a thick fascia in the vicinity of ur lumbar spine). if u can strengthen ur t.a., then ur strength will improve in most exercises. the only way to exercise ur t.a. is indirectly (there is little or no exercises that u can do to isolate it) by sucking ur gut up and in while exercising. picture tying a string around ur abdomen, now suck in ur gut and create some laxity in the string. now perform all ur exercises with the "string" being loose. it is hard at first, but over time it becomes second nature. it will actually help improve ur posture during working out...helping u keep neutral spine position (head and back in a straight line...spine straight as possible). also remember when ur exercising to keep an anterior pelvic tilt (hips forward...rear end out), t.a. flexed (remember the string), and a slight bend in ur knees. if u can remember all of these principles, u can maximize ur growth. and trust me, i used to lift "hardcore" and never believed in all this stuff, and i thought i knew everything, but until I tried it and saw that the mechanics behind it actually works, i will never go back. bodybuilding, in part, is a lot of trial and error, so u have nothing to lose by trying it. it's a learning experience, and even the most seasoned athletes could use some tips now and then. hope this helps.

[nads786]

do you have a picture of what your explaining im having a hard time seeing it in my mind

[SandManTFC]

I'm very new to BB, the rule I always use is to do between 4-6 reps for mass, If you can't lift 4 reps the weight is to heavy, If you lift more than 6 reps the weight is to light.

[AlxandrTheGreat]

^ Not true, any bodybuilder from amateur to the pro IFBB level will tell you that anything below 6 reps will only increase strength and very little growth will follow the strength increases. Bodybuilders who know what's up rarely go below 8 reps or past 15. You do build muscle all the way to 15 reps, but most stay with 8-12.

Personally I do 8-10 reps for my upper body exercises, and 10-15 for lower as legs grow best in that range. Most respond in these rep-ranges, but you could be different.

[TrainSmarter]

"How many reps should you do? And how fast should you do them? I can't tell you that because your goals and body is unique to you and you alone. Here are some general recommendations though. I almost always recommend 5-8 reps for bench press. Why? Because every damn person I know wants a big bench, because for some reason when the average person asks how much you can lift they are rarely asking what you can squat or deadlift. For legs most people do best on higher reps. Again this is not universal, but most folks build bigger wheels with higher reps. 10 as a minimum and as high as 50 works well. Do a all out set of 20 rest pause squats or 30 rep leg presses as your leg workout until you add a couple hundred pounds to them and tell me your legs are not looking wicked. For arm work I like to have the trainee do some work with lower reps (these don't necessarily have to be direct arm work either, heavy back work slams bi's as does heavy chest work slam tri's) and some higher rep work to cover all bases. If you are only doing strait sets, the old scheme of doing one low (5-8) rep set and then doing a burnout set of 15-20 works well for many people. I like people to train abs HEAVY with reps in the 10-15 rep range because if you want a big squat and deadlift you gotta have STRONG abs."

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=411195

[xXxCG1785xXx]

"How many reps should you do? And how fast should you do them? I can't tell you that because your goals and body is unique to you and you alone. Here are some general recommendations though. I almost always recommend 5-8 reps for bench press. Why? Because every damn person I know wants a big bench, because for some reason when the average person asks how much you can lift they are rarely asking what you can squat or deadlift. For legs most people do best on higher reps. Again this is not universal, but most folks build bigger wheels with higher reps. 10 as a minimum and as high as 50 works well. Do a all out set of 20 rest pause squats or 30 rep leg presses as your leg workout until you add a couple hundred pounds to them and tell me your legs are not looking wicked. For arm work I like to have the trainee do some work with lower reps (these don't necessarily have to be direct arm work either, heavy back work slams bi's as does heavy chest work slam tri's) and some higher rep work to cover all bases. If you are only doing strait sets, the old scheme of doing one low (5-8) rep set and then doing a burnout set of 15-20 works well for many people. I like people to train abs HEAVY with reps in the 10-15 rep range because if you want a big squat and deadlift you gotta have STRONG abs."

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=411195

Ok, once u get over 15 reps...ur building muscular endurance, not strength...u should know this. if u want max hypertrophy, u need to shock the muscle and use an amount of weight that will break down the muscle tissue quickly. if u can do 50 reps, then ur body responds by increased vascularization and increased mitochondrian levels. in other words, it gets more efficient at moving little amounts of weight...which is good if u want to do isometric movements..ur body will be more efficient....but not good at building size. more reps will also burn more calories, so yea, ull look good...but not big.


and also, if u want a big deadlift and squat, its not big abs u want, its a strong transverse abdominus. abs bring ur ribs towards ur naval...so then how will they give u a strong deadlift or squat? (contrary to the belief that they fold u in half...ur hip flexors do that...ever notice why sometimes ur legs hurt after crunches?...yea cuz most people don't know the mechanics and ROM of ur abdominals and therefore don't isolate them enough to work them out. try using a BOSU board or a ball). ur transverse abdominals will help ur deadlift and squat. they are the major stabilizing muscle of the body.

[xXxCG1785xXx]

^ Not true, any bodybuilder from amateur to the pro IFBB level will tell you that anything below 6 reps will only increase strength and very little growth will follow the strength increases. Bodybuilders who know what's up rarely go below 8 reps or past 15. You do build muscle all the way to 15 reps, but most stay with 8-12.

Personally I do 8-10 reps for my upper body exercises, and 10-15 for lower as legs grow best in that range. Most respond in these rep-ranges, but you could be different.

GOOD JOB.

[W8isGR8]

Number of reps isn't as important as TUT. You could bust out 10 reps quickly, or you could do 6 reps at the same weight with a slow(4-6 sec) negative and explosive positive. What's going to subject the muscle to the most stress, a load on the muscle for 10 seconds or 45 seconds? If it's the same amount of weight, than obviously the latter. Most people use the 8-12 rep range because it usually falls into the 40-50 sec TUT range, which is optimal for hypertrophy. Of course you still need to be using a weight between 65%-85% of your 1RM.

[TrainSmarter]

Ok, once u get over 15 reps...ur building muscular endurance, not strength...u should know this. if u want max hypertrophy, u need to shock the muscle and use an amount of weight that will break down the muscle tissue quickly. if u can do 50 reps, then ur body responds by increased vascularization and increased mitochondrian levels. in other words, it gets more efficient at moving little amounts of weight...which is good if u want to do isometric movements..ur body will be more efficient....but not good at building size. more reps will also burn more calories, so yea, ull look good...but not big.

So in your opinion 20 rep breathing squats are not an effective way of adding size to your legs?

[TrainSmarter]

Number of reps isn't as important as TUT. You could bust out 10 reps quickly, or you could do 6 reps at the same weight with a slow(4-6 sec) negative and explosive positive. What's going to subject the muscle to the most stress, a load on the muscle for 10 seconds or 45 seconds? If it's the same amount of weight, than obviously the latter. Most people use the 8-12 rep range because it usually falls into the 40-50 sec TUT range, which is optimal for hypertrophy. Of course you still need to be using a weight between 65%-85% of your 1RM.

Exactly, that's what it says in the link I posted.

[xXxCG1785xXx]

So in your opinion 20 rep breathing squats are not an effective way of adding size to your legs?

ur legs are different. they respond to slightly higher reps seeing how u work them all day long and they need to be efficient. but 50 reps? no that won't build size. maybe 20 at the most. but let me see u do 20 SLOW reps of a good weight at about 65% 1RM. if u can do that much, then u r going too quickly. come on, remember the time under tension principle. that is why reps are a state of mind my friend. if u do lots of quick reps, well then it may work ur legs, but why waste energy when u can do 7-8 slowww reps with the same results? quick movements r not characteristic of hypertrophic exercises. its all an inverse relation. it depends on ur technique.

[xXxCG1785xXx]

yes exactly, i didnt see that u mentioned the TUT principle...misunderstanding on my part. LOL. nevermind...good job then. its good to see someone else who knows what they are talking about.

[W8isGR8]

ur legs are different. they respond to slightly higher reps seeing how u work them all day long and they need to be efficient. but 50 reps? no that won't build size. maybe 20 at the most. but let me see u do 20 SLOW reps of a good weight at about 65% 1RM. if u can do that much, then u r going too quickly. come on, remember the time under tension principle. that is why reps are a state of mind my friend. if u do lots of quick reps, well then it may work ur legs, but why waste energy when u can do 7-8 slowww reps with the same results? quick movements r not characteristic of hypertrophic exercises. its all an inverse relation. it depends on ur technique.

You still need a quick movement on the positive portion, as this recruits the fast-twitch fibers.

[xXxCG1785xXx]

You still need a quick movement on the positive portion, as this recruits the fast-twitch fibers.

\i do agree on that good job. rep points. ur the only other person i know who knows about recruiting fast-twitch fibers.

[Ron Schwarz]

You still need a quick movement on the positive portion, as this recruits the fast-twitch fibers.

That is not true. The "fast-twitch" fibers aren't really "fast-twitch". The difference between the FT (Type II) and "slow twitch" (ST/Type I) is one of SIZE and when they are activated is based on FORCE requirements, not speed.

The ST fibers are very capable of moving your limbs at very fast speeds. The increased FORCE requirements are what bring in the larger Type II fibers. And you can't bypass the Type I fibers for Type II - Size Principle of Recruitment.

This is why light weights basically do nada for size - the Type II fibers are never brought in to help.

Think about this logically. When you see a big guy lift a lot of weight WITHOUT BOUNCING the weight or using bad form, how fast does the weight move? It moves slowly. You can't move a heavy weight fast unless you cheat.

I've seen lots of so-called authorities use some pretty stupid arguments for moving the weight "fast". One wonders if they passed High school physics sometimes.

[xXxCG1785xXx]

That is not true. The "fast-twitch" fibers aren't really "fast-twitch". The difference between the FT (Type II) and "slow twitch" (ST/Type I) is one of SIZE and when they are activated is based on FORCE requirements, not speed.

The ST fibers are very capable of moving your limbs at very fast speeds. The increased FORCE requirements are what bring in the larger Type II fibers. And you can't bypass the Type I fibers for Type II - Size Principle of Recruitment.

This is why light weights basically do nada for size - the Type II fibers are never brought in to help.

Think about this logically. When you see a big guy lift a lot of weight WITHOUT BOUNCING the weight or using bad form, how fast does the weight move? It moves slowly. You can't move a heavy weight fast unless you cheat.

I've seen lots of so-called authorities use some pretty stupid arguments for moving the weight "fast". One wonders if they passed High school physics sometimes.

LOL good point as well.

[Defiant1]

Sorry gang, faster is better....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...387&query_hl=3

And moving a light load at maximum speed DOES recruit the type 2s....from Chad Waterburys article "Lift Fast/Get Big"

The Science of Fast Training
Muscle physiologists have discovered an important law of motor unit recruitment: the faster the tempo, the greater the recruitment of motor units. This is important because the more motor units you recruit, the greater the strength and muscle gains you’ll achieve.
Our nervous system is designed with an inherent, orderly recruitment of motor units. In other words, low-force tasks such as walking around your living room do little to induce muscle growth. Why? Simple: walking requires very little recruitment of motor units.
Jumping and sprinting, on the other hand, induce huge amounts of motor unit recruitment that leads to substantial muscle growth. What’s the primary difference between walking and jumping? Speed of muscle action, of course! The proof is clear when you observe the lower-body musculature of a gold-medal 100 meter sprinter compared to a hair stylist (i.e., someone who’s merely standing and walking all day long).
The benefits of fast training are:
1. Improved High-Threshold Motor Unit Recruitment
Quicker high-threshold motor unit recruitment occurs with super-fast tempos since you improve the recruitment of the motor units that have the most potential for growth. What I’m referring to are the fast-fatigable (FF) fast-twitch motor units that possess Type IIB muscle fibers. These motor units are capable of inducing huge amounts of strength and hypertrophy increases.
2. Improved Rate Coding
Rate coding is also enhanced with fast training. This relates to a change in discharge frequency of motor units with faster tempos. In other words, the firing rate increases with increases in speed (power) production.
3. Enhanced Synchronization of Motor Units
The last scientific element improved with fast training is enhanced synchronization of motor units. As you increase the frequency of fast training sessions, motor units improve their synchronous activation during maximal voluntary efforts. This leads to more strength and enhanced neuromuscular efficiency.
The three aforementioned variables (recruitment, rate coding and synchronization) all work in concert to enhance intramuscular coordination. But I’m not finished yet! A few more advantages of fast training are:
4. Improved Intermuscular Coordination
When you apply maximal effort to a load (attempt to lift it as fast as possible), you’re improving your body’s ability to maximally activate many different muscle groups simultaneously. This coordinated effort enhances intermuscular coordination which, in turn, improves your strength levels.
5. Altered Muscle Fiber Characteristics
With a consistent execution of fast training speeds, the skeletal muscle and nervous system adapt by converting many slow-twitch (Type I) muscle fibers to fast-twitch (Type IIA and IIB) characteristics. This is another perfect example of the specific adaptations to imposed demand (SAID) principle.

The Missing Link
I can’t even begin to name all of the misleading advice that’s been dished out by newsstand muscle magazines, but one of the biggest misconceptions is slow training. I don’t know why in the hell trainees think they should lift a load slowly, maybe because it’s easier to lift slowly, or maybe because they can "feel" the muscles working. Either way, it’s pure bull**** that leads to inferior results.
If you want strength and size, you better learn to start lifting fast. How fast? As fast as humanly possible without compromising form!

Before it comes up, without MAXIMUM speed, it IS correct to say that load determines fiber recruitment (threshold load varies for different muscles). In fact, I use that aspect of muscular physiology to dispell the "must train to failure to hit all fibers" myth. Past this threshold percentage, rate coding is used to continue the movement.

[geriatricmuscle]

Sorry gang, faster is better....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...387&query_hl=3

And moving a light load at maximum speed DOES recruit the type 2s....from Chad Waterburys article "Lift Fast/Get Big"

The Science of Fast Training
Muscle physiologists have discovered an important law of motor unit recruitment: the faster the tempo, the greater the recruitment of motor units. This is important because the more motor units you recruit, the greater the strength and muscle gains you’ll achieve.
Our nervous system is designed with an inherent, orderly recruitment of motor units. In other words, low-force tasks such as walking around your living room do little to induce muscle growth. Why? Simple: walking requires very little recruitment of motor units.
Jumping and sprinting, on the other hand, induce huge amounts of motor unit recruitment that leads to substantial muscle growth. What’s the primary difference between walking and jumping? Speed of muscle action, of course! The proof is clear when you observe the lower-body musculature of a gold-medal 100 meter sprinter compared to a hair stylist (i.e., someone who’s merely standing and walking all day long).
The benefits of fast training are:
1. Improved High-Threshold Motor Unit Recruitment
Quicker high-threshold motor unit recruitment occurs with super-fast tempos since you improve the recruitment of the motor units that have the most potential for growth. What I’m referring to are the fast-fatigable (FF) fast-twitch motor units that possess Type IIB muscle fibers. These motor units are capable of inducing huge amounts of strength and hypertrophy increases.
2. Improved Rate Coding
Rate coding is also enhanced with fast training. This relates to a change in discharge frequency of motor units with faster tempos. In other words, the firing rate increases with increases in speed (power) production.
3. Enhanced Synchronization of Motor Units
The last scientific element improved with fast training is enhanced synchronization of motor units. As you increase the frequency of fast training sessions, motor units improve their synchronous activation during maximal voluntary efforts. This leads to more strength and enhanced neuromuscular efficiency.
The three aforementioned variables (recruitment, rate coding and synchronization) all work in concert to enhance intramuscular coordination. But I’m not finished yet! A few more advantages of fast training are:
4. Improved Intermuscular Coordination
When you apply maximal effort to a load (attempt to lift it as fast as possible), you’re improving your body’s ability to maximally activate many different muscle groups simultaneously. This coordinated effort enhances intermuscular coordination which, in turn, improves your strength levels.
5. Altered Muscle Fiber Characteristics
With a consistent execution of fast training speeds, the skeletal muscle and nervous system adapt by converting many slow-twitch (Type I) muscle fibers to fast-twitch (Type IIA and IIB) characteristics. This is another perfect example of the specific adaptations to imposed demand (SAID) principle.

The Missing Link
I can’t even begin to name all of the misleading advice that’s been dished out by newsstand muscle magazines, but one of the biggest misconceptions is slow training. I don’t know why in the hell trainees think they should lift a load slowly, maybe because it’s easier to lift slowly, or maybe because they can "feel" the muscles working. Either way, it’s pure bull**** that leads to inferior results.
If you want strength and size, you better learn to start lifting fast. How fast? As fast as humanly possible without compromising form!

Before it comes up, without MAXIMUM speed, it IS correct to say that load determines fiber recruitment (threshold load varies for different muscles). In fact, I use that aspect of muscular physiology to dispell the "must train to failure to hit all fibers" myth. Past this threshold percentage, rate coding is used to continue the movement.

I've read Waterbury's article before and it's as interesting as ever. I do have a question regarding the link with the Isokinetic lengthening training results. Regarding the exercise itself. Did they increase resistance on the arm using the slower tempo, or were both equally resistive? If so, then it seems something is missing. One very basic reason for moving slower is the fact that you just can't move heavier weight faster. You may think explosive coming out of the box but you're going to be moving slow. And we both know quite a lot of large powerlifters..So I was just wondering if the experiment was comparing apples and apples?? If they didn't increase the resistance on the slow arm to compensate for the rate change on the fast arm, then???

gm

[Defiant1]

I've read Waterbury's article before and it's as interesting as ever. I do have a question regarding the link with the Isokinetic lengthening training results. Regarding the exercise itself. Did they increase resistance on the arm using the slower tempo, or were both equally resistive? If so, then it seems something is missing. One very basic reason for moving slower is the fact that you just can't move heavier weight faster. You may think explosive coming out of the box but you're going to be moving slow. And we both know quite a lot of large powerlifters..So I was just wondering if the experiment was comparing apples and apples?? If they didn't increase the resistance on the slow arm to compensate for the rate change on the fast arm, then???

gm

It says "maximum resistance".

Powerlifters certainly move as fast as possible, so no argument there from me or from any science as to why they would grow.

If you take a step back and look at it from the outside, if max speed/low load movements were done by slow twitch fibers only, then why would sprinters have large thighs relative to distance runners? And why would FT/ST ratios be high in sprinters?

[geriatricmuscle]

It says "maximum resistance".

Powerlifters certainly move as fast as possible, so no argument there from me or from any science as to why they would grow.

If you take a step back and look at it from the outside, if max speed/low load movements were done by slow twitch fibers only, then why would sprinters have large thighs relative to distance runners? And why would FT/ST ratios be high in sprinters?

I think people wind up where they belong. Genetics. In the first place, sprinters sprint because they are good at it and long distance runners run long distance because they are better at it. It comes from within. Therefore, one might therorize that predetermined genetics guides one to their destiny. It is my understanding that all muscles have both, fast and slow twitch. The ratios are subjest to predetermined genetics. Not vise verse. I didn't think you could convert one to the other. So what you have is what you become good at...??

gm

[Defiant1]

I think people wind up where they belong. Genetics. In the first place, sprinters sprint because they are good at it and long distance runners run long distance because they are better at it. It comes from within. Therefore, one might therorize that predetermined genetics guides one to their destiny. It is my understanding that all muscles have both, fast and slow twitch. The ratios are subjest to predetermined genetics. Not vise verse. I didn't think you could convert one to the other. So what you have is what you become good at...??

gm

Basically correct. But the fact that sprinters have a high FT/ST relative ratio indicates in sprinting FT fibers are a benefit, negating the "ST fibers are only used at low load" regardless of tension.

[BO-FLEXER]

I know everyone has an opinion so that is why I will state mine.
Most efficient way to build muscle = light enough to lift 4-6 reps heavy enough to acheive failure at 6-8. I am currently using a slightly modified version of Max OT which works for me. If your lifting over 8 reps than you are treading towards muscle endurance rather than muscle mass. It's equivalent to running track. A sprinters routine is made up of explosive short distances of all out intensity 50-200 yard distances. A medium distance runners routine is primarily made up of 400-800 yard distances. A long distance runners routine is made up of 800-3200 yard distances. The longer distances obviously will drain or deplete you more than the short distances however the speed or intensity is higher for the sprinter. However it's good now and than to mix it up and work on higher reps to build endurance however for strengh low reps heavy weights are key...