Vanadyl Sulfate... Why is this toxic garbage in our supplements?

[NO HYPE]

BMOV was in phase II clinical trials and showed significant improvements in diabetic patients.

Yes. Was well aware of the Phase I & II trials. Unfortunately however, those trials mean nothing to individuals with non-dysfunctional insulin-mediated signal transduction. I simply fail to see the reason why healthy individuals willingly & chronically supplement BMOV and/or V complexes.

[CanadaBBOY]

Yes. Was well aware of the Phase I & II trials. Unfortunately however, those trials mean nothing to individuals with non-dysfunctional insulin-mediated signal transduction. I simply fail to see the reason why healthy individuals willingly & chronically supplement BMOV and/or V complexes.

Oh right, yeah, that would be the work of snake oil salesman (the supplement industry) putting anything they can get their hands on into a supplement and trying to make money off of gullible people (99% of the public), regardless of safety of efficacy. I thought that was old news?

I don't really think our views are in opposition here.

Perhaps now you better understand my ****-stirring comment, as it would be nice to see said irresponsible snake-oil salesman suffer financially.

[NO HYPE]

My comment was somewhat made with a ****-stirring goal.

Hence my comment.

I will show this stuff to them and they will probably find it amusing and I have no idea if they would sue or not (probably not).

Yeah, especially when considering the fact that BMOV and/or other V compounds are essentially worthless to non-diabetics.

[CanadaBBOY]

Hence my comment.





Yeah, especially when considering the fact that BMOV and/or other V compounds are essentially worthless to non-diabetics.

Yes, indeed. This isn't surprising as real scientists view the supplement world as a joke (rightfully so) .

[NO HYPE]

Real scientists view the supplement world as a joke (rightfully so).

Sorry brother..... Here's the part where you keep driving, and I open the door and jump out.

QUICK EXAMPLE = supplemental nitrate salts

Tell you what.... Get back to us when you can find some solid/peer-reviewed data [from those "real scientists"] that could even attempt to nullify the extensive data that demonsrates the ability of oral nitrates to act as a NOS-independent ergogenic aid via multiple pathways such as enhanced VO2max, enhanced time to exhaustion, enhanced NO distribution/vasoregulatory function ect.

[NO HYPE]

"amusing" thread isn't it Mr. Shit-stirrer?

[CanadaBBOY]

Sorry brother..... Here's the part where you keep driving, and I open the door and jump out.

QUICK EXAMPLE = supplemental nitrate salts

Tell you what.... Get back to us when you can find some solid/peer-reviewed data [from those "real scientists"] that could even attempt to nullify the extensive data that demonsrates the ability of oral nitrates to act as a NOS-independent ergogenic aid via multiple pathways such as enhanced VO2max, enhanced time to exhaustion, enhanced NO distribution/vasoregulatory function ect.

I'm a little lost... I never said anything contrary to what you are saying about nitrates.

[NO HYPE]

I'm a little lost... I never said anything contrary to what you are saying about nitrates.

Was your statement reguarding scientists "rightfully" deeming supplements as a joke, [NOT] contrary to the truth?

Nitrates were merely one of many examples.

[CanadaBBOY]

Was your statement reguarding scientists "rightfully" deeming supplements as a joke, [NOT] contrary to the truth?

Nitrates were merely one of many examples.

There is no doubt that supplements have significant physiological effects, I wouldn't debate that. The problem is that supplement peddlers use pseudoscience and incomplete studies (usually in animals) to draw conclusions about the effects of often poorly tested and understood chemicals for use in human applications (exercise physiology). Lots of the ideas presented are sound and make sense, but instead of acting on those ideas with proper scientific method and experimentation, they are presented as evidence in themselves and used to market these substances to the mass population (to make huge profits). Often times these chemicals are marketed as being natural as minerals/plant extracts, but saying a concentrated and fractionated plant extract is 'natural' is a non sequitor. Administering a concentrated dose of a chemical substance, regardless of it's origin, that elicits a significant physiological response is in the territory of medicine and drugs and should be treated as such.

As i'm sure you know very well, many drugs originate from extracts of plants/sea creatures. By taking these compounds/extracts and selling them without proper testing (toxicology, pharmacology, binding specificity and and strength, etc.), and often sourcing them from shady chinese manufacturing facilities that can produce impure chemicals with residual solvent/catalyst/reagents, it is very irresponsible. It's like taking the job a team of scientists would do in 5-10 years (discovering a compound, characterizing it, synthesizing it, doing proper biology testing on it, followed by animal/human studies, etc.) and cutting it off at the very beginning of the processes and saying "meh, lets just sell it to the mass public and make tons of money, and if people get sick the effects probably won't be acute and they'll have a hard time proving it was us".

I find the field of supplements and "alternative medicine" fascinating and I enjoy these sorts of threads; however, the supplement industry operates entirely in the gray area of legality and science, and hides its dishonesty in 'natural remedies'. If an "alternative medicine" is shown to be effective, it ceases to be "alternative" and becomes adopted as actual medicine. We have creatine, protein powder, vitamins, some plant extracts, and so on, that are largely considered safe and reasonable for sale as unmonitored health products. But then we go into unlicensed pharmaceuticals that haven't completed testing and clinical trials (such as BMOV), and other modified synthetic compounds like PH and other inhibitors, and things get really ugly. There are people that have strong scientific backgrounds and just do this for a hobby or for money, but a lot of people don't really know what they're doing and end up selling very unsafe products to unsuspecting customers.

To summarize, the supplement industry has realized its potential as a multi-billion dollar industry, is now getting "too big for its britches", and is wandering into medical/scientific territory where it doesn't belong. I'm not debating the intelligence of people who are into this field and who enjoy discussing/debating it, i'm debating the companies that take advantage of loose FDA regulations and uneducated/gullible consumers to make heaps of money, while possibly causing deleterious effects to its consumers. It is irresponsible and it runs contrary to proper scientific method and ethics, hence my statement of "real scientists" thinking it is a joke.

[NO HYPE]

The problem is that supplement peddlers use pseudoscience and incomplete studies (usually in animals) to draw conclusions about the effects of often poorly tested and understood chemicals for use in human applications (exercise physiology).

Well as always, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves prior to jumping on bandwagons. The age-old practice of deceitful marketing tactics [with SOME companies] will never cease. Neither will the plethora of unknowing consumers who will continue to fall victim to their false claims and/or implications.

Thankfully however, the scientific data [or lack thereof] can be easily researched within the peer-reviewed literature. It offers an extremely effective way to determine fact from fiction.

[NO HYPE]

Since this thread was made, it seems some companies took the initiative to remove VS from their products however there seems to be an interest in BMOV, yet no plausible explanation for it's incorporation.

So with BMOV, they take the vanadyl ion lingand 3-hydroxy-2-methyl-4-pyrone and combine it with VS, thereby circumventing VS's poor oral bioavailability and toxcicity at therapeutically effective doses. Despite this improvement however, there exists no data that would suggest that BMOV is effective and/or beneficial for healthy individuals. Why bother?

[CanadaBBOY]

Since this thread was made, it seems some companies took the initiative to remove VS from their products however there seems to be an interest in BMOV, yet no plausible explanation for it's incorporation.

So with BMOV, they take the vanadyl ion lingand 3-hydroxy-2-methyl-4-pyrone and combine it with VS, thereby circumventing VS's poor oral bioavailability and toxcicity at therapeutically effective doses. Despite this improvement however, there exists no data that would suggest that BMOV is effective and/or beneficial for healthy individuals. Why bother?

As I said in my previous long post, there is not point. Like most supplements, its all marketing and sales.

[NO HYPE]

there is no point.

Precisely. I've been well aware of this for quite some time. My comments were primarily intended for product formulators/R&D consultants/consumers ect.

Yes we are somewhat on the same page [except for the "I find this thread amusing"] comment. I fail to see how companies suggesting 150mg of VS-per day is amusing. Know what I mean?

[CanadaBBOY]

Precisely. I've been well aware of this for quite some time. My comments were primarily intended for product formulators/R&D consultants/consumers ect.

Yes we are somewhat on the same page [except for the "I find this thread amusing"] comment. I fail to see how companies suggesting 150mg of VS-per day is amusing. Know what I mean?

Amusing in a cynical and baffled way.

[Guardian]

This concerns me cause BMOV is in Glycbol, I still have 3 bottles of that stuff to use up from when I grabbed it on wheycheap.com


NOHYPE

I believe a large amount of supplements used and promoted on here may have ill health effects most people are unaware of.

How many people use Betal Alanine yet are unaware of the fact that it can deplete zinc, copper, and taurine.

[NO HYPE]

This concerns me cause BMOV is in Glycbol

I would not be overly concerned. As I stated previously, BMOV circumvents VS's toxicity. I just can't find any plausible explanation for supplemental BMOV in healthy individuals.

How many people use Betal Alanine yet are unaware of the fact that it can deplete zinc, copper

Do you have any links?

and taurine.

This is a topic I planned on doing more extensive research on. There's more than meets the eye here. I will likely make a thread once I've got as much human in vivo data as I can find.

[xR1pp3Rx]

nohype?
can you tell me how you feel about overweight/boderline typeI diabetics useing said supplements at an advantage over the "healthy trained" consumer.
also i still use VS daily as a GDA for keto dieting... (grabbin bottle for amounts listed) 975mcg one per day. im aware this is well under toxicity levels of intake.. but has the literature proved it to be ineffective? or you just dont like that it hasnt been proven? i ask because im seriously thinking about useing some of the second gen GDAs... i was thinking slin sane.. with the limited amount of info i have provided you with, do you even think its worth buying something new? have used VS since anthony almada promoted it in the early 90s ... but after thumbing through your thread.. i am starting to wonder if its time to quit useing it alltogether. your thoughts on BMOV as a replacement GDA used in this manner (keto dieting specifacally)

in his book dan duchaine talks about how the insulin responce is nill during the keto phase and that not useing a GDA daily is a big mistake.. especially when trying to return to ketosis after the recomp. as to facilitate clearing of glucose from the muscles.

[NO HYPE]

can you tell me how you feel about overweight/boderline typeI diabetics useing said supplements at an advantage over the "healthy trained" consumer.

Vanadium compounds aquire some degree of efficacy for Type 1 & 2 diabetics, as referenced in this thread.

also i still use VS daily as a GDA for keto dieting.

Well, if you were previously eluding to the fact that you are a Type 1 diabetic, then yes [insulin resistance is another story], VS and/or BMOV may be a beneficial adddition as a GDA. In contrast however, there is no evidence [that I am aware of] suggesting that vanadium compounds elicit any appreciable effects on insulin-mediated signal transduction and/or glucose diposal in healthy individuals.

im seriously thinking about useing some of the second gen GDAs.

ALA [preferably Na-RALA], Gymnema sylvestre, Fenugreek, Bitter melon, ect. have some degree of efficacy within the literature.

[xR1pp3Rx]

actually already use the ALA in conjunction.. and yes i have felt and can easily gather symtoms... of diabetes.. runs in fam. so when i am eating well i have alot less problems (obviously). it seems to really help for me.. the 2 taken together.. i can usually acheive Ketosis in 36 hrs. is it not safe to say that if its been studied and proven to be very effective for diabetics in what it does to insulin and it actions..it would have atleast some effect on the average person who im assumeing is typically insulin resistant to begine with?

also would some effect be better than no effect as long as its considered a statistical difference? i mean really even though alot of this stuff is cheap... i dont wanna be pissin monies down the drain either. i guess thats gonna produce an opinion for an answere but still how you feel in general about these? why are they so popular ?(because of anabolic pump or somthing? )

[NO HYPE]

is it not safe to say that if its been studied and proven to be very effective for diabetics in what it does to insulin and it actions..it would have atleast some effect on the average person

would some effect be better than no effect as long as its considered a statistical difference?

As I stated previously, there is no evidence [that I am aware of] suggesting that vanadium compounds elicit any appreciable effects on insulin-mediated signal transduction and/or glucose diposal in healthy individuals. In light of the lack of evidence, if you feel that VS is effective for you, get an accurate/calibrated glucometer and see for yourself.

[godjoey]

Don't know the rules of reviving such an old post but wanted to share what I experienced of 10 years of using vanadyl sulfate.

Possible
Pros
Helped me in strength
Helped me lean out

Cons
A serious low feeling if not taken with a higher carb meal

I took vanadyl by bricked labs 10mg then sportpharma way back when they were producing it, if I recall correctly it was 7.5mg.

I cycled it from age 16 to 26, I was making great gains before vs. My doc said I had to slow down since I went from 130lbs to 220+lbs using cyproheptadine over just 2 years of use.

So I had to stop everything and I only used vs and little training at the time of age 17. I was able to bench 330 for 3 clean controlled reps just lighter training and just vs with 3 meals a day. I never pressed this much prior maybe coincidence with development. I lost size on vs from 240s to a much leaner solid 220s with a lot less training.

Again it might be coincidence or genetics I can't say determination because I didn't expect to get even a half of a rep also didn't train regularly. Thinking back it should not have been possible for me to press a weight like that with my taller frame over 6'2 at the time long arms. Not suggesting anyone take any of this stuff I'm just just sharing my experience of what I used 20 years back.

Little background we were poor, and vs was cheap. I had milk, eggs and steak whenever possible and plenty of pasta. Couldn't afford protein powders. Still today no powders or vitamins the last few years I still feel great. God bless.

[GigaPaladin]

Is this NO HYPE guy banned forever?

[RuckinFool]

Late to this topic but my experience with Vandal Sulphate did yield results...both good and bad.

Back in the late 90's I was using Twin Labs Super Vandal Fuel. Aside from whey protein this was the ONLY supplement I was taking. I took the Vandyl supplement per the directions on the bottle and the effects were as follows:

I experienced a pump that lasted long after my workouts and my muscle density was much more pronounced. This lasted at least until the next day's dose. It was really remarkable. I have never taken any other supplement that has such a pronounced effect on my body's appearance. It was kinda crazy really.

And now, the bad...

Around the time that I started taking Vandal Sulphate I noticed that I became mildly nauseous when I began eating food. I didn't make the connection at first but it wasn't long before I started to suspect that the culprit was the Super Vandal Fuel. That said I kept taking it. After about a month the nausea symptoms had become so pronounced that I began to develop an aversion to eating because I always got hit with a wave of nausea a few bites into my meal.

I stopped taking the Vandal Sulphate and a few days later the nausea symptoms went away.

A sales guy sold me on another brand that was supposed to be better so I decided to give it a go but it didn't produce any visible results...at all.

So I decided to give the Twin Labs product another try and BAM...I was right back to pumped, denser muscles and nausea. That was it for me. I just ****-canned the stuff and never looked back until a few years ago.

I was curious if anyone else had the same good/bad experience I did and if so why. I did some searching and quickly discovered that Twin Labs discontinued the product so I emailed them to see if they had any plans to ever produce it again and they promptly replied- "NO. Super Vandal Fuel has been permanently discontinued."

I did try another brand around that time and the only thing it did was make my wallet lighter.

I don't know why the Twin Labs brand was so effective but it definitely was not sustainable for me.

That's my experience with Vandal Sulphate.

[mia0011]

Hi,
interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now