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    Exclamation Vanadyl Sulfate... Why is this toxic garbage in our supplements?

    I recently participated in a thread dealing with this, and I'm glad that the subject of vanadyl sulfate in our supplements, was brought to my attention however.... I wanted to compile all of my information, and present it in a seperate thread (as I feel that it is more appropriately titled, and I am more than willing to confront any company reps on this issue).

    It turns out that the majority of companies that are including this substance in their formulations, are doing so, WITHOUT ANY REGUARDS TO TOXICITY.

    Taking .5 to 1 mg a day of vanadyl sulfate is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. Most of the bodybuilding supplements contain a minimum of 5 mg.... and up to 30 mg!!!!

    "High doses of vanadium (anything over 15 mg/day) may cause liver and/or kidney damage."

    Adult

    Taking 0.5 to 1.0 mg/day of vanadium is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people. Some manufacturers promote high dosages (15 to 100 mg) of vanadyl sulfate per day, but studies do not support such dosages, and they may be toxic. Because the safety and effectiveness of vanadium have not been thoroughly studied, caution should be exercised when using vanadium as a nutritional supplement.

    Uses

    The effects of vanadium have not been studied extensively in people. The majority of studies to date have been conducted in laboratory animals.

    Body Building/Performance Enhancement

    While vanadyl sulfate is widely used by athletes to enhance performance, beneficial effects have not been confirmed by studies. Use of vanadium is not advised because of the potential toxic effects associated with high doses of this mineral.

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vanadium-000330.htm


    Material Safety Data Sheet


    MSDS Name: Vanadyl Sulfate

    Synonyms: Vanadium, Oxo[sulfato(2-)-O]-; Vanadium, Oxosulfato-; Vanadium Oxide Sulfate; Vanadium Oxylsulfate; Oxo(sulfato)


    EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

    Warning! Causes eye and skin irritation. Causes digestive and respiratory tract irritation. May cause liver and kidney damage.
    Target Organs: Kidneys, liver, respiratory system, eyes, skin.

    Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.


    Eye: May cause eye irritation and possible damage.


    Skin: Contact with skin causes irritation and possible burns, especially if the skin is wet or moist. Contact with the skin may cause skin lesions which are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers.

    *****://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/24800.htm



    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    I really find it interesting that there are about six NO products on bb.com that contain vanadyl sulfate.... too bad it has been shown to induce pulmonary vasoconstriction, as a result of NO inhibition.


    Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

    Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

    Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.


    Here is more incriminating evidence....



    J Inorg Biochem. 1994 Aug 1;55(2):101-12. Links

    One-electron reduction of vanadate by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH.

    The one-electron reduction of vanadate (vanadium(V)) by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH was investigated by ESR and ESR spin trapping. The spin trap used was 5,5-dimethyl-1-pyrroline N-oxide (DMPO). Incubation of vanadium(V) with ascorbate generated significant amounts of vanadium(IV) in phosphate buffer (pH 7.4) but not in sodium cacodylate buffer (pH 7.4) nor in water. The vanadium(IV) yield increased with increasing ascorbate concentration, reaching a maximum at a vanadium(V): ascorbate ratio of 2:1. Addition of formate to the incubation mixture containing vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate generated carboxylate radical (.COO-), indicating the formation of reactive species in the vanadium(V) reduction mechanism. In the presence of H2O2 a mixture of vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate buffer generated hydroxyl radical (.OH) via a Fenton-like reaction (vanadium(IV)+H2O2-->vanadium(V)+.OH+OH-). The .OH yield was favored at relatively low ascorbate concentrations. Omission of phosphate sharply reduced the .OH yield. The vanadium(IV) generated by ascorbate reduction of vanadium(V) in the presence of phosphate was also capable of generating lipid hydroperoxide-derived free radicals from cumene hydroperoxide, a model lipid hydroperoxide. Because of the ubiquitous presence of ascorbate in cellular system at relatively high concentrations, one-electron reduction of vanadium(V) by ascorbate together with phosphate may represent an important vanadium(V) reduction pathway in vivo. The resulting reactive species generated by vanadium(IV) from H2O2 and lipid hydroperoxide via a Fenton-like reaction may play a significant role in the mechanism of vanadium(V)-induced cellular injury.



    Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

    Vanadium promotes hydroxyl radical formation by activated human neutrophils
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c9654615a39359

    Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

    Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art03151

    Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/con...stract/26/1/39
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    Originally Posted by ram_6000000 View Post
    I dont get why some manufacturers insist on including Vanadyl Sulfate in their formulas. Theres much better glucose disposal agents available, plus theres evidence indicating its not only worthless for adding muscle, but also toxic in doses over 1000mcg a day. The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving. I feel strongly about this because I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap. I only thank god the side-effects subsided once I quit taking the product. What do you all think about this?

    Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    I recently participated in a thread dealing with this, and I'm glad that the subject of vanadyl sulfate in our supplements, was brought to my attention however.... I wanted to compile all of my information, and present it in a seperate thread (as I feel that it is more appropriately titled, and I am more than willing to confront any company reps on this issue).

    It turns out that the majority of companies that are including this substance in their formulations, are doing so, WITHOUT ANY REGUARDS TO TOXICITY.

    Taking .5 to 1 mg a day of vanadyl sulfate is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. Most of the bodybuilding supplements contain a minimum of 5 mg.... and up to 30 mg!!!!





    Material Safety Data Sheet


    MSDS Name: Vanadyl Sulfate

    Synonyms: Vanadium, Oxo[sulfato(2-)-O]-; Vanadium, Oxosulfato-; Vanadium Oxide Sulfate; Vanadium Oxylsulfate; Oxo(sulfato)


    EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

    Warning! Causes eye and skin irritation. Causes digestive and respiratory tract irritation. May cause liver and kidney damage.
    Target Organs: Kidneys, liver, respiratory system, eyes, skin.

    Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.


    Eye: May cause eye irritation and possible damage.


    Skin: Contact with skin causes irritation and possible burns, especially if the skin is wet or moist. Contact with the skin may cause skin lesions which are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers.

    *****://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/24800.htm







    Here is more incriminating evidence....



    J Inorg Biochem. 1994 Aug 1;55(2):101-12. Links

    One-electron reduction of vanadate by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH.

    The one-electron reduction of vanadate (vanadium(V)) by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH was investigated by ESR and ESR spin trapping. The spin trap used was 5,5-dimethyl-1-pyrroline N-oxide (DMPO). Incubation of vanadium(V) with ascorbate generated significant amounts of vanadium(IV) in phosphate buffer (pH 7.4) but not in sodium cacodylate buffer (pH 7.4) nor in water. The vanadium(IV) yield increased with increasing ascorbate concentration, reaching a maximum at a vanadium(V): ascorbate ratio of 2:1. Addition of formate to the incubation mixture containing vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate generated carboxylate radical (.COO-), indicating the formation of reactive species in the vanadium(V) reduction mechanism. In the presence of H2O2 a mixture of vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate buffer generated hydroxyl radical (.OH) via a Fenton-like reaction (vanadium(IV)+H2O2-->vanadium(V)+.OH+OH-). The .OH yield was favored at relatively low ascorbate concentrations. Omission of phosphate sharply reduced the .OH yield. The vanadium(IV) generated by ascorbate reduction of vanadium(V) in the presence of phosphate was also capable of generating lipid hydroperoxide-derived free radicals from cumene hydroperoxide, a model lipid hydroperoxide. Because of the ubiquitous presence of ascorbate in cellular system at relatively high concentrations, one-electron reduction of vanadium(V) by ascorbate together with phosphate may represent an important vanadium(V) reduction pathway in vivo. The resulting reactive species generated by vanadium(IV) from H2O2 and lipid hydroperoxide via a Fenton-like reaction may play a significant role in the mechanism of vanadium(V)-induced cellular injury.



    Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

    Vanadium promotes hydroxyl radical formation by activated human neutrophils
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c9654615a39359

    Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

    Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art03151

    Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/con...stract/26/1/39
    May being the key word. The title is a tad melodramatic.
    Last edited by uniquenutrition; 11-24-2007 at 12:58 PM.
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    May being the key word.
    Well tell me how many times these studies definitively say "will" cause. Technically smoking cigarettes "may" lead to lung cancer and heart disease, so your argument lacks merit.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    May being the key word.
    Either way.... there's a lot of "Mays" there.

    I'd like to see some justification for it being included in our supplements in the first place.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Either way.... there's a lot of "Mays" there.

    I'd like to see some justification for it being included in our supplements in the first place.
    Study 1:

    Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66.Links
    Erratum in:
    Diabetes 1996 Sep;45(9):1285.
    Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H.
    Department of Medicine, Diabetes Research Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10461, USA.

    We compared the effects of oral vanadyl sulfate (100 mg/day) in moderately obese NIDDM and nondiabetic subjects. Three-hour euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (insulin infusion 30 mU / m / min) clamps were performed after 2 weeks of placebo and 3 weeks of vanadyl sulfate treatment in six nondiabetic control subjects (age 37 +/- 3 years; BMI 29.5 +/- 2.4 kg/m2 ) and seven NIDDM subjects (age 53 +/- 2 years; BMI 28.7 +/-1.8 kg/m2). Glucose turnover ([3-3 H]glucose), glycolysis from plasma glucose, glycogen synthesis, and whole-body carbohydrate and lipid oxidation were evaluated. Decreases in fasting plasma glucose (by approximately 1.7 mmol/l) and HbAlc (both P < 0.05) were observed in NIDDM subjects during treatment; plasma glucose was unchanged in control subjects. In the latter, the glucose infusion rate (GIR) required to maintain euglycemia (40.1 +/- 5.7 and 38.1 +/- 4.8 micromol / kg fat-free mass FFM / min) and glucose disposal (Rd) (41.7 +/- 5.7 and 38.9 +/-4.7 micromol / kg FFM / min were similar during placebo and vanadyl sulfate administration, respectively. Hepatic glucose output (HGO) was completely suppressed in both studies. In contrast, in NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate increased GIR approximately 82% (17.3 +/- 4.7 to 30.9 +/- 2.7 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05); this improvement in insulin sensitivity was due to both augmented stimulation of Rd (26.0 +/-4.0 vs. 33.6 +/- 2.22 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05) and enhanced suppression of HGO (7.7 +/- 3.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.9 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis accounted for >80% of the increased Rd with vanadyl sulfate (P < 0.005), but plasma glucose flux via glycolysis was unchanged. In NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate was also associated with greater suppression of plasma free fatty acids (FFAs) (P < 0.01) and lipid oxidation (P < 0.05) during clamps. The reduction in HGO and increase in Rd were both highly correlated with the decline in plasma FFA concentrations during the clamp period (P < 0.001). In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    The title is a tad melodramatic.
    I've found more evidence for vanadyl's toxicity.... than it's nutritional efficacy.
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    Study 2

    J Clin Invest. 1995 Jun;95(6):2501-9. Links
    Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.

    Cohen N, Halberstam M, Shlimovich P, Chang CJ, Shamoon H, Rossetti L.
    Department of Medicine, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York 10461, USA.

    We examined the in vivo metabolic effects of vanadyl sulfate (VS) in non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Six NIDDM subjects treated with diet and/or sulfonylureas were examined at the end of three consecutive periods: placebo for 2 wk, VS (100 mg/d) for 3 wk, and placebo for 2 wk. Euglycemic hyperinsulinemic (30 mU/m2.min) clamps and oral glucose tolerance tests were performed at the end of each study period. Glycemic control at baseline was poor (fasting plasma glucose 210 +/- 19 mg/dl; HbA1c 9.6 +/- 0.6%) and improved after treatment (181 +/- 14 mg/dl [P < 0.05], 8.8 +/- 0.6%, [P < 0.002]); fasting and post-glucose tolerance test plasma insulin concentrations were unchanged. After VS, the glucose infusion rate during the clamp was increased (by approximately 88%, from 1.80 to 3.38 mg/kg.min, P < 0.0001). This improvement was due to both enhanced insulin-mediated stimulation of glucose uptake (rate of glucose disposal [Rd], +0.89 mg/kg.min) and increased inhibition of HGP (-0.74 mg/kg.min) (P < 0.0001 for both). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis (+0.74 mg/kg.min, P < 0.0003) accounted for > 80% of the increased Rd after VS, and the improvement in insulin sensitivity was maintained after the second placebo period. The Km of skeletal muscle glycogen synthase was lowered by approximately 30% after VS treatment (P < 0.05). These results indicate that 3 wk of treatment with VS improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in insulin-resistant NIDDM humans. These effects were sustained for up to 2 wk after discontinuation of VS.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    I've found more evidence for vanadyl's toxicity.... than it's nutritional efficacy.
    Thats because it's a metal I could find the same for many metals. Especially trace minerals like boron.

    Human studies show it can be safely used and effective for certain uses. Your only point is meta dosing or using toxic forms should be avoided. Which is common knowledge to me.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    . In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.
    So this is your rebuttal? So it does nothing for nondiabetic subject and "may" improve a defect in insulin signaling in diabetics. Well that has many profound uses for us nondiabetic weight trainers and it really refuted NO HYPE's toxicity concerns
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    Protects against brain damage

    Mol Cell Biochem. 2006 Jun;286(1-2):153-9. Epub 2006 Mar 11. Links
    Vanadyl sulfate administration protects the streptozotocin-induced oxidative damage to brain tissue in rats.Yanardag R, Tunali S.
    Faculty of Engineering, Department of Chemistry, Istanbul University, 34320 Avcilar, Istanbul, Turkey. yanardag@istanbul.edu.tr

    Diabetes mellitus manifests itself in a wide variety of complications and the symptoms of the disease are multifactorial. The present study was carried out to investigate the effects of vanadyl sulfate on biochemical parameters, enzyme activities and brain lipid peroxidation, glutathione and nonenzymatic glycosylation of normal- and streptozotocin-diabetic rats. Streptozotocin (STZ) was administered as a single dose (65 mg/kg) to induce diabetes. A dose of 100 mg/kg vanadyl sulfate was orally administered daily to STZ-diabetic and normal rats, separately until the end of the experiment, at day 60. In STZ-diabetic group, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum catalase (CAT) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activities, brain lipid peroxidation (LPO) and nonenzymatic glycosylation (NEG) increased, while brain glutathione (GSH) level and body weight decreased. In the diabetic group given vanadyl sulfate, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum CAT and LDH activities and brain LPO and NEG levels decreased, but brain GSH and body weight increased.The present study showed that vanadyl sulfate exerted antioxidant effects and consequently may prevent brain damage caused by streptozotocin-induced diabetes.
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    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    interestingly, one study found that vanadyl supplementation did not help with insulin sensiivity in non-diabetic obese individuals.

    Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66.

    Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.

    Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H.
    Department of Medicine, Diabetes Research Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10461, USA.

    We compared the effects of oral vanadyl sulfate (100 mg/day) in moderately obese NIDDM and nondiabetic subjects. Three-hour euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (insulin infusion 30 mU / m / min) clamps were performed after 2 weeks of placebo and 3 weeks of vanadyl sulfate treatment in six nondiabetic control subjects (age 37 +/- 3 years; BMI 29.5 +/- 2.4 kg/m2 ) and seven NIDDM subjects (age 53 +/- 2 years; BMI 28.7 +/-1.8 kg/m2). Glucose turnover ([3-3 H]glucose), glycolysis from plasma glucose, glycogen synthesis, and whole-body carbohydrate and lipid oxidation were evaluated. Decreases in fasting plasma glucose (by approximately 1.7 mmol/l) and HbAlc (both P < 0.05) were observed in NIDDM subjects during treatment; plasma glucose was unchanged in control subjects. In the latter, the glucose infusion rate (GIR) required to maintain euglycemia (40.1 +/- 5.7 and 38.1 +/- 4.8 micromol / kg fat-free mass FFM / min) and glucose disposal (Rd) (41.7 +/- 5.7 and 38.9 +/-4.7 micromol / kg FFM / min were similar during placebo and vanadyl sulfate administration, respectively. Hepatic glucose output (HGO) was completely suppressed in both studies. In contrast, in NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate increased GIR approximately 82% (17.3 +/- 4.7 to 30.9 +/- 2.7 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05); this improvement in insulin sensitivity was due to both augmented stimulation of Rd (26.0 +/-4.0 vs. 33.6 +/- 2.22 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05) and enhanced suppression of HGO (7.7 +/- 3.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.9 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis accounted for >80% of the increased Rd with vanadyl sulfate (P < 0.005), but plasma glucose flux via glycolysis was unchanged. In NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate was also associated with greater suppression of plasma free fatty acids (FFAs) (P < 0.01) and lipid oxidation (P < 0.05) during clamps. The reduction in HGO and increase in Rd were both highly correlated with the decline in plasma FFA concentrations during the clamp period (P < 0.001). In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.



    not only it doesn't further improve insulin sensitivity in non-diabetics, it may also exert an anti-lipolytic effect!!!
    ..
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    So this is your rebuttal? So it does nothing for nondiabetic subject and "may" improve a defect in insulin signaling in diabetics. Well that has many profound uses for us nondiabetic weight trainers and it really refuted NO HYPE's toxicity concerns
    Rebuttal? I don't have time really go into it or have our MD make a reply. Nice to see you had nothing to add to this.

    However human studies have shown it can be safely used in the right dosages and forms.

    If you have a problem with it don't take it or ask BB to drop it.
    Last edited by uniquenutrition; 11-24-2007 at 01:12 PM.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    Rebuttal? I don't have time really go into it or have our MD make a reply.

    However human studies have shown it can be safely used in the right dosages and forms.

    If you have a problem with it don't take it or ask BB to drop it.
    Sure, get your MD on here and maybe he can post a relevant study because all of the studies you have posted only are of minimal significance to diabetics and you still have yet to post a study refuting NO HYPE's toxicity concerns. So post something relevant or stop posting. Are you just posting random studies regarding VS, because I fail to see anything even slightly relevant in what you are posting.
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post

    Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.

    How does that help people of the bodybuilding community?

    How does that justify it's inclusion in our supplements?
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Sure, get your MD on here and maybe he can post a relevant study because all of the studies you have posted only are of minimal significance to diabetics and you still have yet to post a study refuting NO HYPE's toxicity concerns. So post something relevant or stop posting.
    Human studies showing no toxic effects and animal studies showing neuroprotective effects are solid data. I think this is abit above your understanding.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    Human studies showing no toxic effects and animal studies showing neuroprotective effects are solid data. I think this is abit above your understanding.
    Those studies in no way demonstrate what you are claiming. You have some animal studies showing a possible antioxidant effect in diabetic rats, well I am convinced now!!! You are so full of it sometimes you startle me. I guarantee you my reading comprehension scores on my SAT's were better than yours as well

    BTW, Did you ever post those COA's for Estoppel?
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    How does that help people of the bodybuilding community?

    How does that justify it's inclusion in our supplements?
    Who said it does?

    It's an ultra trace mineral like lithium which plays a role in human health. I'm not aware any supplement needs to justify itself. Take it or not.
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Those studies in no way demonstrate what you are claiming. You are so full of it sometimes you startle me. I guarantee you my reading comprehension scores on my SAT's were better than yours as well

    BTW, Did you ever post those COA's for Estoppel?

    I don't think you understand what I'm stating rather than claiming.
    SAT's? You never took an IQ test or got into mensa did you?
    Estoppel is an idiot spammer i usually avoid him like herpes.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    Who said it does?

    It's an ultra trace mineral like lithium which plays a role in human health. I'm not aware any supplement needs to justify itself. Take it or not.
    Coming from the guy selling lithium over the internet, that is real safe to be selling to people.
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Coming from the guy selling lithium over the internet, that is real safe to be selling to people.
    You seem to need it.
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    I don't think you understand what I'm stating rather than claiming.
    SAT's? You never took an IQ test or got into mensa did you?
    Estoppel is an idiot spammer i usually avoid him like herpes.
    Steve, one day you and the FDA are going to have a nice sit down with each other.
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Steve, one day you and the FDA are going to have a nice sit down with each other.
    We talk often. Some of my best friends are FDA officals. You should come over sometime for drinks.

    I only hope all companies can match my demanding quality standards.
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    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    We talk often. Some of my best friends are FDA officals. You should come over sometime for drinks.

    I only hope all companies can match my demanding quality standards.
    Steve we all know about your imaginary friends.
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Steve we all know about your imaginary friends.
    We also know your company doesn not post it's COA's on their website.

    PS. Nice profile.
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by uniquenutrition View Post
    We also know your company doesn not post it's COA's on their website.

    PS. Nice profile.
    Our products our not quite as dangerous as yours either. Steve you are selling things that can seriously screw up a persons brain chemistry and you refuse to post any COA's or any 3rd party results. I still am shocked that you were on here pushing Lithium.
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  27. #27
    Your Body is a TEMPLE Feny's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leonidas300 View Post
    Steve we all know about your imaginary friends.
    please can we get back to the science of this? i'm taking a supplement with vandium... not sulfate... can this still lead to problems with toxicity?
    200lbs. . . . . . . . . . . . I'll rep back 800+ :)
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  28. #28
    Improve your Mind CognitiveNutrition's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Feny View Post
    please can we get back to the science of this? i'm taking a supplement with vandium... not sulfate... can this still lead to problems with toxicity?
    If taken in high doses any of form vandium can cause a problem like most supplements.

    Sorry it seems some kids have nothing better to do.
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  29. #29
    Back In Business ZDub212's Avatar
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    Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

    Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?
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  30. #30
    Improve your Mind CognitiveNutrition's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZacharyMills View Post
    Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

    Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?
    Stupid and not having an advanced understanding of biochemistry and nutrition are too different things. So far Leo has added nothing to this thread aside from insults stemming from his inability to laugh at a funny joke i made.
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