Why I think you can get big and ripped at the same time

**jamsession1** · 08-31-2005, 07:35 AM

I know there is alot of evidence that one should not try and cut and gain muscle at the same time, however... I have been able to achieve mass and "sculpt" that mass at the same time. The weight goes up, but I can cut up that mass at the same time. I don't need to be calorie deficint to get cut. A stupid analogy but the best I can think of at the moment is building a rock and then sculpting into it to create the physique you want. Is that not better than building muscle with a large calorie increase and then dropping calories in an attempt to get cut? Maybe I am fooling myself but I feel that I have been able to gain mass and etch into that mass without having to go too crazy into calorie defecit.

Am I way off in my thinking? I am 228 lbs now at 5'11 and I can see easily the msucles within my abdomen and obliques. I cut calories at times but never as extreme as I have read some guys do. Any thoughts?

**Slated** · 08-31-2005, 07:38 AM

you're in the slow lane.

I'll stay in the fast lane

we'll see who gets to the finish line first

**avian** · 08-31-2005, 07:41 AM

genetics usually play a BIG role in this

bulk and cut at the same time requires a LOT of time and effort on my diet/routine

the one time i could actualy gain 2-3 pounds of muscle and loose 2-3 pounds of fat was when i did an UD2.0 diet which was REALLY hard to do it

**pu12en12g** · 08-31-2005, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by jamsession1

Am I way off in my thinking? I am 228 lbs now at 5'11 and I can see easily the msucles within my abdomen and obliques. I cut calories at times but never as extreme as I have read some guys do. Any thoughts?

Congrats on your progress !

1) You are not "way off" in your thinking, but there is a difference between what "works" and what is "optimal".

2) With your VERY extensive (and expensive

) use of supplements, it isn't really surprising that you've kept fatloss to a minimum:

Originally Posted by jamsession1

....I need a subtle thermo that will actaully aid in cutting. I am not a big fan of any supp that creates a buzz that makes it hard to sleep. I work out at night and I need to sleep. I have tried many products and I will list the results I got and how I felt.

Liquid Clen (VPX) - I liked this product but its effects tended to fade with use more so that other products. Considering the ephedrine in this product I should probaly not even speak of it because i won't be getting it again. I listed this product so that some of the users on this board could get a feel for how I react to certain supps and then they could use that info to make a recommedndation to me as to what to use going forward.

Stacker (2) - Ripped me up big time....Kept me awake also. All in all not bad, i was actually a big fan. but I hate ephedrine and its irritating effetcs.

Ripped Fuel - Hated it....actually returned the bottle.

Ripped Fuel - new, slightly gayer version. I actually like this product much better, but it causes problems for me in the long run. It actaully depletes energy long term and that is exactly what I am trying to avoid.

Adenergy - Say what you will but I liked this product. helped me gain what felt like "natrual" energy. No jitters, no increased heart rate. But....I had to stop taking this product because it made me EXTREMELY short temprered and I was actually statring to get in trouble at work because of it. I have no idea why this happened and noone on any board has been able to explain it to me. i want to continue with this supp but I can't take the chance if it intereferes with work.

Hot Rox - Made me sweat and tired. Didn't feel like working out. Granted I tried this product on a hot August day so maybe that had an impact, but I need a product that will not make me so uncomfortable that i won't want to work out.

Tight (SAN) - Good product. Not as jitterful as the other Synephrine products. STill not a good choice for someone who lifts at 7:30 and has to been in bed by 11:00 IMO. MAybe you guys have a different opinion, let me know.

The list goes on and on. Please do not recommend any ephedrine based products bacuse I hate ephedrine,. Any subtle fat burning products THAT ACTUALLY WORK would be greatly appreciated. Please don't metnion CLA either. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx

Originally Posted by jamsession1

Creatines:

Vitargo CGL - Very solid product, made good gains (sorry no chart). Well worth the money. Good for bulking / strenght gains - wouldn't recommend for cutting. If you want to try a creatine, I would suggest starting here rather than a CEE - that's just my opinion of course since CEE seems to be held in high regard on this forum.

Met -Rx creatine Monohydrate - We'll this is pure monohydrate - no gimmicks no nothing. Very good product for the purist who wants to pay for creatine mono and not a bunch of gimmick ingredeients. I wouldn't buy it again however.

San V-12 (original formula) - First couple of times I took this I felt like Superman .... Then, you get used to it and you have to take a break from it for awhile. This product actually gave me stomach discomfort which I managed to avoid with other creatine concoctions. Outdated product IMO.

Swole - Great product - No stomach discomfort - There was some debate on here about the saftey of some of the ingredients in the product. Wouldn't re-order but I would recommend if you can get it cheap.

iron tek - crea tek - Surprisingly enough this muther worked well. Got stronger, got bigger (again no chart..sorry). Another Mono with sugar added to get the insulin up. All i can say is it worked... much in the same way cell tech would work.... watch the sugar if you are cutting.

Cell Tech - despite the bashing of Muscle tech this product works if you are willing to sacrifice sugar (bf) for size / stregnht gains. Yes it is overpriced though and there are far better products to choose.

CEX (VPX) - Decent CEE I suppose. Gains did come but nothing super special here. Not a bad product by any means. Nothing to nut over either

No Explode - Love this product / hate the price. This product address very well my need for pre-workout energy... however you get used to it pretty fast and the price is horrible. BSN, despite the bashing and the overpricing, makes some good products. Beginners should start here if they can afford it IMO.

Crea Select (I believe is the name) bev Int - Good product it seems, ingredients make sense - I have this product but have only used it a few times. More usage is needed for me to give a proper opinion on it.

Man, there are sooo many other creatine products I can't list em all. Bottom line on creatine - It works to get you some size and it will increase your ability to bang out more reps once you become tired. but.... you don't really need it. If your cutting, I would drop the creatine altogether. However, cretaine has been said to be scintifically proven effective and I will say first hand that it is one of the few products that delivers consistently on its promises.

NO products:

Nitrix - IMO Nitrix is at the top of the heap as far as NO products are concerned. They amp me up just enough before my workouts and there is creatine within the product as well. If you haven't tried this product and are looking for an NO boost I would say start here and develop your own opinon.

Blast Cycle (Fizogen) - Well....if you like to take massive uncontrolable ****s... this si the product for you. It made me insane in the gym but I paid for it. My ******* has not forgiven me since. Please....Please do not buy this product... learn from my anal pain

No explode : read above

NOX 2 - (Pinnacle) Okay I am going to get **** here but this MF worked well for me. I mean it really did give me a kick. I would recoommend Nitirx over it only because I have read that many people do not share my backing of this Pinnacle product, but it worked for me, and worked well. One of the few products that you could not deny was having an effect on your workout.

Again the NO listw ould go on forever. I started off thinking NO was a crock, but its not. It has provided me with better workouts which have led to better gains. I am not saying that NO = better gains, I am saying that NO = better workouts = better gains

Proteins:

VPX Micellean - Despite the many reviews to the contrary, i did not like this product. It did not sit well with my stomach and it felt like I had tar stuck in my belly after I drank this stuff. Its a pure casein so if your going for a pure caseine this is a good bet for you. For me, it was no good - Just relying my experince.

NOW WHey Protien Isolate - Love it, it is pure, it is relatively inexpensive, can't say enough good things about it.

Isopure - good profile, but it didn't feel like it had 50 grams fo protein in it. My muscle still seemed to need more protien even after I would down an Isopure post workout. I don't know why this was the case nad it may just ahve been my experince. I know guys who swear by this stuff.

Bev Int protiens - Ultra Size and Muscle Provider - Both worked well for their intended purposes...Muscle Provider especially so. Expensive though.

Myoplex / Met Rx originl MRP - Good for their intended purposes. I am not an MRP fan though. If you want an MRP Lean Mass Matrix is great. Also Labrada Breakfeast MRP is very good as well. Good protine quality and fiber content in both products.

MHP Probiolic - Boy does this protien suck. Hated this product. Profile sucks, results suck, just avoid this.

Okay, I'll cut the protien review off here.... again too many to list. Of course Protein should be your first stop and I feel the whey isolates work the best.

Good Products:

XTEND (I love BCAA's and this one takes the cake)
ICE (same as above but taste is worse and no added citrulline - I am a citrulline fan..maybe I should learn how to spell it

)

Animal Nitro (Only universal product I have come across that I liked) Universal truly is underdoesed across the board....that is no myth

Vendetta (Taste like pure **** but I like the concept of added EAA's to the diet)

MAN BodyOctane - Works and works well. If only half the bottle didn't clump up on me to the point where I couldn't even break it up

Even with this, I back this product 100%

Products to avoid:

Well, avoid Universal for the most part because there products just don't seem to deliver and their promises are ridiculous.

MuscleTech - Just too overpriced, there are better choices.

I won't even get into Ecdystreone and Isoflavone ... we all know that is crap (don't we??) I hope so by now.

GNC sucks... no news there either.

**jamsession1** · 08-31-2005, 07:46 AM

Pull,

That supplement use is over the course of 16 years:

trainig since I was 12, I am 28 now.

I currently only use the following supps:

Nitrix
Xtend
Vendetta
Now Whey Protein Isolate
Vitargo
7 Keto Musclean

**Dallas68** · 08-31-2005, 08:02 AM

damn good list bro......glad u liked nitro and tight

**jamsession1** · 08-31-2005, 08:14 AM

I figured why not post reviews on products I have tried in the past. Its basically a report of what results I saw (did not see) after taking the supps.

**pu12en12g** · 08-31-2005, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by jamsession1

I figured why not post reviews on products I have tried in the past. Its basically a report of what results I saw (did not see) after taking the supps.

Yes ! Definately a good idea.... what I'm saying is that it isn't shocking that you got big and ripped over a 16 year timeframe while using all those supplements.

Make sense ?

By the way, great summary right here:

I started off thinking NO was a crock, but its not. It has provided me with better workouts which have led to better gains. I am not saying that NO = better gains, I am saying that NO = better workouts = better gains

**jamsession1** · 08-31-2005, 08:26 AM

Thanks man... I was hoping all those reviews weren't getting annoying.

**toughnuts** · 08-31-2005, 08:34 AM

Well if you go from 150 at 10% bodyfat to 220 at 10% bodyfat, you will have gained fat. The difference is that your fat to muscle ratio has stayed the same, but both have become larger. I believe that staying "around" the same bodyfat while gaining muscle is achievable.

**PSKlifter** · 08-31-2005, 09:10 AM

agreed its a slower process. plus, if ones diet was sloppy to begin with, this process is actually way easier. the starting point is definitely relative.

**crazylucci** · 08-31-2005, 11:02 AM

I think you need the right environment to get big and ripped...of course good genetics would be best....but diet is critical...too many carbs..you'll get big...big and fat....buy the book natural hormonal enhancement by Rob Faigin and follow the bodybuilders diet religiously. Protein and good fats are essential..also good supplementation is key..Creatine/glutamine, BCAA's, Whey powder, Casein powder (before bed especially), Fish oil, Flax oil, lots of Vitamin C, a Good multi like NOW adam or universal animal pak. L-Arginine/Ornithine for pumps. a decent test booster like Blue Rhino or Diesel Test. Cortisol control like lean X treme and estradiol control like ATD(if it works for you) or 6-oxo for those of us pre disposed to puffy nips or high estrogen levels. Do not train more than 45 minutes for Strength training and do short intense cardio like sprinting...you do not need 45 minutes of cardio that is sick and will lower your test levels....again Diet is everything...

**kendog** · 08-31-2005, 11:22 AM

Most people can lose fat and keep calories the same by simply cleaning up their diet. The diet has to be complex carbs and meat, no sugars, etc. I really don't like the idea of doing extreme cuts or extreme bulks. It doesn't do any good unless a person plans on competing.

**pu12en12g** · 08-31-2005, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by kendog

I really don't like the idea of doing extreme cuts

^^ I agree with you on that one

**jamsession1** · 08-31-2005, 11:25 AM

Agree completly ^^^^^

**JRRBadBoy4Life** · 08-31-2005, 11:58 AM

On this topic, I would have to say that it is qutie possible to get big and stay ripped at the same time. And I would say it would be possible to add 30-40lbs of lean muscle mass in a period of less than 6 months.

Look at Hollywood once. Brad Pitt for example, put on 30 lbs for his role in TROY. For those who have seen the movie, you know how ripped he looked.

Im sure its not something the average person can afford, but it is quite possible.

**AccountantGuy** · 08-31-2005, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by jamsession1

I know there is alot of evidence that one should not try and cut and gain muscle at the same time, however... I have been able to achieve mass and "sculpt" that mass at the same time. The weight goes up, but I can cut up that mass at the same time. I don't need to be calorie deficint to get cut. A stupid analogy but the best I can think of at the moment is building a rock and then sculpting into it to create the physique you want. Is that not better than building muscle with a large calorie increase and then dropping calories in an attempt to get cut? Maybe I am fooling myself but I feel that I have been able to gain mass and etch into that mass without having to go too crazy into calorie defecit.

Am I way off in my thinking? I am 228 lbs now at 5'11 and I can see easily the msucles within my abdomen and obliques. I cut calories at times but never as extreme as I have read some guys do. Any thoughts?

You can shape muscles bu tthat is not the def. of getting "ripped"=losing fat.

**pu12en12g** · 08-31-2005, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by JRRBadBoy4Life

Brad Pitt for example

**PSKlifter** · 08-31-2005, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by JRRBadBoy4Life

On this topic, I would have to say that it is qutie possible to get big and stay ripped at the same time. And I would say it would be possible to add 30-40lbs of lean muscle mass in a period of less than 6 months.

Look at Hollywood once. Brad Pitt for example, put on 30 lbs for his role in TROY. For those who have seen the movie, you know how ripped he looked.

Im sure its not something the average person can afford, but it is quite possible.

he actually looked pretty smooth in that movie, not that ripped. And i dont think he put on that much weight anyways. 15-20 tops. u know how they always inflate **** to make it look better.

**JRRBadBoy4Life** · 08-31-2005, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

Haha, I love the lollercoaster. Your new position must leave you with a lot of time on your hands.

**JRRBadBoy4Life** · 08-31-2005, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by PSKlifter

he actually looked pretty smooth in that movie, not that ripped. And i dont think he put on that much weight anyways. 15-20 tops. u know how they always inflate **** to make it look better.

Either way smooth or ripped, it was 30 lbs according to one of my wifes stupid magazines that she gets. Plus, Ive seen him quite thin in some of his movies so for him to go from 160-190 in a short period of time is quite possible.

**isotope** · 08-31-2005, 12:58 PM

Yes and that thirty pounds was achieved with anabolic use which is common in Hollywood for these amazing transformations you see. And in any event he wasn't huge nor ripped. Just bigger.

**kendog** · 08-31-2005, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by isotope

Yes and that thirty pounds was achieved with anabolic use which is common in Hollywood for these amazing transformations you see. And in any event he wasn't huge nor ripped. Just bigger.

I've never heard that one before...

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