Does anynone find it fun to train to failure?

[Rane14]

I know you can easily make progress on a multiple set program and not training to failure but going all out for a work set seems so more challenging, eh? Definately does destroy your body in a few weeks though.

[$AJ]

Definately does destroy your body in a few weeks though.

not if you're training properly

that type o ftraining ...."ohhh, i trained so hard that I need 2weeks to recover' is just a bunch of useless BS

[jamsession1]

I love to train to failure provided I am safe... thus my love for the power rack.

[W8isGR8]

not if you're training properly

that type o ftraining ...."ohhh, i trained so hard that I need 2weeks to recover' is just a bunch of useless BS

You know that consistantly training to/past failure will f*ck up your CNS.

[$AJ]

You know that consistantly training to/past failure will f*ck up your CNS.

like Henry said, useless for practicle strength, acceptable for muscle size

it's not inherintly evil like most make it out to be, it all depends on how you apply it.

[Dominik]

not if you're training properly

that type o ftraining ...."ohhh, i trained so hard that I need 2weeks to recover' is just a bunch of useless BS

My main concern with all-out failure training on a regular basis is there isn't enough mechanical work in each workout to strengthen the tendons, ligaments, etc. Strict form becomes even more important and when you're working with heavy weights that's not easy to maintain. So in short doses, sure, failure training can be quite effective, but as a long-term strategy???

Now I know you'll chalk this one up as luck, but in all my time training I've never had a serious injury despite having spent a lot of time training up around 85-90%. All I can put it down to is I don't consistently train to failure. I might use the odd intensity technique (drop sets, rest-pauses, etc.), but my training isn't based on it. I also like to increase the load in steps with a max. spread of 10% at the start of a heavy workout, so if my working weight is 85%, I might do my first set around 75% after a warmup. Finally, I think my form is pretty solid.

But I'm convinced the key is not training to failure all the time. Obviously this goes against the premise of several popular training systems, one of which you swear by, but I'd rather sacrifice some potentially small gains each year to remain injury free.

[4amWorkouts]

Wouldn't have it any other way...

[W8isGR8]

like Henry said, useless for practicle strength, acceptable for muscle size

it's not inherintly evil like most make it out to be, it all depends on how you apply it.

I guess stopping at failure isn't as bad as forced reps. Rest pause is okay, I guess.

[ShreddedShruggin]

Guys, stop being a bunch of pansies. If you're eating enough calories, getting enough sleep and are resting enough in between workouts, you'll be fine. Stop worrying about your bitch ass CNS.

If you're not training hard, then you're hardly training.

-Shruggin

[Alaskan1]

The question was "does anyone LIKE training to failure" right?
It feels SO good. YES

[W8isGR8]

Guys, stop being a bunch of pansies. If you're eating enough calories, getting enough sleep and are resting enough in between workouts, you'll be fine. Stop worrying about your bitch ass CNS.

If you're not training hard, then you're hardly training.

-Shruggin

Someone's been reading too many AnimalPak ads

[zfan88]

Someone's been reading too many AnimalPak ads

I love those ads though, lol...so motivating

[Tyrbolift]

You have to make a decision during the set as to what constitutes failure, and what constitutes cheating.

I train to failure quite a bit, but it doesn't mean I cannot do anymore. It means I cannot do anymore while maintaining the strict form. I will occasionally cheat to get out an extra ONE rep, but as Dominik said, you gotta watch your tendons--injuries there set you back bad.

Those of you that are young and flexible and recover quickly, more power to your invincible attitude. But once you get into yours upper 20's through 40's and beyond, you lose some elasticity and healing ability and the same thing you did at 20 becomes something that lays you up from lifting weights for over 6 months from pulling some crucial muscle.

[Alaskan1]

one mans defenition of failure is not gonna be the same as anothers.

[ShreddedShruggin]

Someone's been reading too many AnimalPak ads

Actually, i just thought of that quote today, i was just waiting for the perfect opportunity to use it.

-Shruggin

[Alaskan1]

Glad to give you the opportunity

[Dominik]

Guys, stop being a bunch of pansies. If you're eating enough calories, getting enough sleep and are resting enough in between workouts, you'll be fine. Stop worrying about your bitch ass CNS.

If you're not training hard, then you're hardly training.

That's where the definition is all screwed up. Not training to failure doesn't mean it's a walk in the park with little pink dumbbells.

Seriously, training to failure isn't necessary all the time. That's pretty much been proven by the fact there are many guys out there with truckloads of mass who rarely train to failure. More fibers might be recruited by going to failure but the benefits of this can easily be negatively offset by not doing enough volume, spending too long resting between sets trying to recover, and not being able to perform for long enough at high intensity (and I don't mean the HIT definition of "high intensity," I mean in 1RM terms) over the course of a workout due to premature fatigue. You can't have it all.

And finally, nowhere else in sport will you find that style of training. An elite 100m sprinter doesn't need to run to failure to improve his performance. Olympic weightlifters aren't doing their lifts to failure in order to break records. The list goes on. I'll wrap it up with a quote from an expert: "It is a common belief that the maximal number of repetitions in a set is desirable, but not necessary, to induce muscle hypertrophy."

[Alaskan1]

well articulated Dominik. I agree. When training for mass "to failure" at times
can be beneficial,however some method to the frequency of failure training
seems necessary to facilitate proper recovery and limit potential for injury

[LaxPro]

i go to failure on every set (except first set) of every exercise. Always have, always will

[Dominik]

i go to failure on every set (except first set) of every exercise. Always have, always will

Lax, you just reminded me of something. The term "failure" isn't clearly defined and is broadly used so there's probably some confusion here. re: failure, are we talking RM (rep max.), concentric failure (through assisted reps), or total failure (going to eccentric failure)? Not everyone makes it clear. If it's rep max., and you can't push out another one on your own then that's not "failure" in my book and I do that often, nor is it failure in the sense the DC, HIT, etc. guys are talking about. If you're consistently going over by a couple of reps then you're miscalculating and not using enough weight to meet those "RM" targets. Concentric and total failure is what I'm thinking of when people say "failure."

Anyway, to sum it up, I see it as an occasional technique rather than a full-time method, and in that context I think it's effective. Each to his own of course.

Here's an excerpt of an article by Charles Staley on failure training which sums it up better than I could. Read #2 on injuries:

The Downside of One Set to Failure

As stated earlier, few training practices or techniques are good or bad in the absolute sense.
Most often, it's a matter of application and context. Performing all sets to failure (or, trying to)
is particularly problematic, for the following reasons:

1) Insufficient training volume for hypertrophy development

Many studies have confirmed that metabolic changes associated with muscular hypertrophy are best instigated
through loading by high volumes, whereas neural adaptations are best brought about through high intensity loads.

Training volume is calculated in pounds lifted per unit of time. If you plan to lift a certain weight
for 5 sets of 5 reps, only the last set would approach concentric failure- if you went to failure on the first set,
the subsequent sets would have to be performed with significantly less weight. This decreases volume, which can
negatively impact muscular hypertrophy. International strength coach Charles Poliquin observes that for any
two athletes on the same basic program, the athlete who uses a higher volume will have greater hypertrophy.
This observation may be due in part to increased levels of anabolic hormones which are associated with
multi-set (as opposed to single set) training.

A second factor to consider with respect to the training load is that there is a limit to how long you can
achieve progressions in intensity, but increases in volume can be achieved for a much longer period.
For example, after about 9-10 years of solid training experience, you'll arrive at (or very close to)
your maximum lifts (1RM's). Past this point, it becomes nearly impossible to increase the training load through
increases in intensity. It's much more feasible at this point to increase training volume (by adding reps and/or sets).
In this way, you can continue to make gains in muscle mass.

2) Injury potential, both acute and chronic, increases

Noted exercise scientist Paul Ward warns that training to failure results in ischemic reperfusion, or oxygen deprivation,
followed by oxygen perfusion. This results in massive free-radical damage to DNA and cell membranes.

International Sports Sciences Association co-founder Dr. Sal Arria cautions that many soft tissue injuries occur
when failure terminates a repetition in mid-stroke. "When the weight on the bar exceeds the muscle's ability to lift it,
something has to give and usually, it's the musculotendonous junction." One of the most important functions of a spotter
is to stay alert and keep the bar moving in order to avoid such injuries, according to Arria.

According, to powerlifting legend Fred Hatfield, if fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists
(which typically tire faster than the prime movers) become too fatigued to allow maintenance of proper form,
you're asking for trouble.

3) Potential for overtraining increases

Louie Simmons, well-known coach to many elite-level powerlifters finds that taking sets to failure "has an ill-effect
on the central nervous system," which delays recovery. Simmons is noted for producing scores of high-ranked lifters
with relatively low-intensity training

4) Regular failed attempts lead to a reduction in a lowering of the Golgi Tendon Organ (GTO) excitation threshold.
Successful lifts which are above what the body is used to will raise the excitation threshold of the Golgi Tendon Organ,
while failed attempts tend to lower it. What this means in bodybuilding parlance is that the more often you miss a lift,
the more likely it is that you'll miss it again in the future.

[W8isGR8]

Looks like someone finally started repping dom. Last time I checked you only had like 15 rep points. Anyway, you opened my eyes a while back. I used to think you had to do forced reps all the time.

[Mythos219]

Guys, stop being a bunch of pansies. If you're eating enough calories, getting enough sleep and are resting enough in between workouts, you'll be fine. Stop worrying about your bitch ass CNS.

If you're not training hard, then you're hardly training.

-Shruggin

EXACTLY

[W8isGR8]

EXACTLY

Another "AnimalLover"

[Dominik]

Looks like someone finally started repping dom. Last time I checked you only had like 15 rep points. Anyway, you opened my eyes a while back. I used to think you had to do forced reps all the time.

I used to think that way too W8, and thankfully I saw the light. I was told repeatedly by bigger guys I was training with that I had to "always push out a couple more reps" at the end of every set with their help. Every set? Btw, I saw a couple of guys last night benching with dumbbells they couldn't force out one rep with unassisted. That's how far some people take the whole forced rep method. How can anyone possibly learn proper form that way?

As for failure training, I believe it has a purpose and you won't find me saying it's pointless. All I question is its application so I can't agree that it's the best way to train full-time. And I don't understand why guys who have aligned themselves with a certain system <insert acronym here> want to spread the word as if it's religion. For example I'm a fan of periodization but you won't find me telling everyone it's the only way to train.

[W8isGR8]

I train to positive failure, when I can't get on more good rep on my own. Once you hit failure, you're no longer working the muscles.

[Dominik]

As for the whole "not going to failure = not training hard" notion, that's simply not true in my experience. Let's say I'm doing 12 sets of chest, all compounds like bench and dips (to be followed by some iso work), training up around 80-85% of 1RM, resting no more than 2-3 mins between sets over 35-40 minutes, and I'm consistently hitting my rep targets, how could that not be training hard? Meanwhile, there are guys doing a small handful of sets to absolute failure, grunting, hissing, eyeballs almost popping out, resting 2-3 times longer between sets.

I'm keeping an open mind here. What if both approaches were similar in effectiveness, only training to failure all the time results in more injuries. If that were true, which training method would you use?

[Dominik]

I train to positive failure, when I can't get on more good rep on my own. Once you hit failure, you're no longer working the muscles.

That's as far as I ever go as well. RM. I set my targets with the right weight and shoot for them. It's that simple. I know if I'm doing the right amount of volume, at the right intensity, keeping rest times to a minimum, I'm training hard regardless of what some people think.

But to me that's not failure. Going to failure is someone helping you complete the reps, using techniques like rest-pauses to squeeze out a few more, heavy eccentric work, and so on. In other words, not being able to go any further. You can reach the point where you can't complete another rep on your own and still have gas in the tank, which means it's obviously not a "failure" method. Which backs up what I'm saying... you don't need to go to failure to build mass.

[W8isGR8]

That's as far as I ever go as well. RM. I set my targets with the right weight and shoot for them. It's that simple. I know if I'm doing the right amount of volume, at the right intensity, keeping rest times to a minimum, I'm training hard regardless of what some people think.

But to me that's not failure. Going to failure is someone helping you complete the reps, using techniques like rest-pauses to squeeze out a few more, heavy eccentric work, and so on. In other words, not being able to go any further. You can reach the point where you can't complete another rep on your own and still have gas in the tank, which means it's obviously not a "failure" method. Which backs up what I'm saying... you don't need to go to failure to build mass.

That's what extra sets are for, to empty the tank

[Dominik]

That's what extra sets are for, to empty the tank

Right. By the end of the workout, if you did everything correctly you'll have achieved that goal. My point before was, if I'm up around 80-85% over those 12 sets, keeping rest times to a minimum, then how could I not be training hard? And if the guy training to failure can't sustain that kind of intensity because of cumulative fatigue, then who is ultimately training harder over the hour? What if he was sipping water resting up for his big "take-no-prisoners" blast for most of the time I was hitting my chest with 80-85%, consistent, right on the money, every 2-3 minutes?

I just don't agree with the whole non-failure training "is for pussies" attitude. Like I said, nowhere else in sport do people train this way all year round. Go figure. Perhaps the guys saying it are basing it on the people who come in to the gym and do 10lb kickbacks for an hour, I don't know. What I do know is training the way I do works for me, I use heavy weights, and I've never been seriously injured training this way.

[Killazer]

No you dont have to goto failure, just progress overall. I go to failure at first till I get used to the weights after a while when im repping out 8-10 reps for a few sets on each exercise and it gets easy I up all the weights and goto failure for a while till I get back up tot he 8-10 point or so. You just have to keep getting better or you wont get bigger.