i am a vegatarian. any supplement suggestions?

[sammylou]

i am a vegatarian. are there any supplements other than the usual whey, creatine, multi, EFA's, that I should be taking?

also, i do manage to get 1.5g of protien per pound through milk, tofu, cheese, eggs/

[Immichaelski]

Yes, eat meat, its abnormal not to! Drink protein shakes and take multivitamins. Zinc and amino acids are good too.

[sammylou]

whatever, i am not going to argue with you about my beliefs on eating meat. thanks for the tips anyway.

[Xtomorph]

I don't understand how a vegetarian can eat eggs, that's practically meat it's an animal anyway. Could you explain the whole vegan thing, why anyone would put themselves through all that. As far as supplements go whey, creatine, get some amino's because I don't know if vegetable protein is complete. Can't think of anything that would help you all that much with your diet the way it is.

[sammylou]

well, i am not a vegan, and so i do not understand their motives. also, you have made me realize something... eating an egg is essentially like eating meat. the main reason that i am a vegatartian though is because both of my parents are. they raised me this way, and i guess it has just become a habit.

[Seroph4x]

1. Optimum Presents:
100% Whey Protein 10 Lbs. $55.59
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/whey.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=389 $47.99

2. Xtreme Formulations Presents:
Ultra Peptide 1.75 Lbs. $24.99
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/xf/ultrap.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=610 $20.95

3. Omega Sports Presents:
Cre-Ethyl Thunder 240 Capsules $25.95
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/omega/cre.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=487 $24.99

4. AST Presents:
Multi Pro 32X 100 Caplets $15.89
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ast/multi-pro.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=457 $14.95

5. PrimaForce Presents:
Lean Green 500mg/60 Capsules $10.79
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/prima/lean.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=489 $10.50

6. Optimum Presents:
Flaxseed Oil Softgels
Natural Blend! 1000mg/100 Softgels $4.39
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/flax.html

7. Olympian Labs Presents:
Omega-3 Fish Oils 240 Softgels $15.99
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/olabs/omega.html

8. Controlled Labs Presents:
White Blood 90 Capsules $27.95
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/white.html

9. Higher Power Presents:
Caffeine
Pure Energy! 120 Capsules $4.19
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hp/caf.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=184 Caffeine
[200 caps] $6.94

TOTAL: $185.73 (bb.com stuff)

[ironstrife]

1. Optimum Presents:
100% Whey Protein 10 Lbs. $55.59
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/whey.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=389 $47.99

2. Xtreme Formulations Presents:
Ultra Peptide 1.75 Lbs. $24.99
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/xf/ultrap.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=610 $20.95

3. Omega Sports Presents:
Cre-Ethyl Thunder 240 Capsules $25.95
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/omega/cre.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=487 $24.99

4. AST Presents:
Multi Pro 32X 100 Caplets $15.89
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ast/multi-pro.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=457 $14.95

5. PrimaForce Presents:
Lean Green 500mg/60 Capsules $10.79
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/prima/lean.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=489 $10.50

6. Optimum Presents:
Flaxseed Oil Softgels
Natural Blend! 1000mg/100 Softgels $4.39
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/flax.html

7. Olympian Labs Presents:
Omega-3 Fish Oils 240 Softgels $15.99
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/olabs/omega.html

8. Controlled Labs Presents:
White Blood 90 Capsules $27.95
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/white.html

9. Higher Power Presents:
Caffeine
Pure Energy! 120 Capsules $4.19
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hp/caf.html
http://www.***********.com/product_i...roducts_id=184 Caffeine
[200 caps] $6.94

TOTAL: $185.73 (bb.com stuff)

Mmmm... goodies... but let us answer his main question....
i think u could u use some BCAA & EAA...

[jrkarp]

To be honest, while you can put on decent mass when not eating meat, you really do need to eat meat to get the best results. It has a good amino acid profile (think about it; it has pretty much the exact same amino acid profile as the muscle you are trying to put on, because we eat the animal's muscles). It digests relatively slowly, spreading the protein content out over time. It is a very dense source of protein. Most importantly (for most of us, I would suspect, though obviously not for you), meat tastes good and makes it easier for us to eat such high protein diets. I can't imagine getting 300+ grams of protein a day from nothing but protein powders, eggs, and milk. A chicken breast costs very little and has little fat, and has around 30 grams of protein, depending on its size. Just adding some simple cheap seasoning to a couple and throwing them on the Foreman grill makes for a delicious, cheap, and quick high protein meal (with some complex carbs on the side, of course).

Eggs are not meat and aren't even close. As noted above, meat is the muscle of an animal. An egg is one cell from an animal, and it's a reproductive cell. Further, it's not even the animal itself; unfertilized eggs (as you buy in stores) have only the chromosomes from the mother and not from any father. It never had the ability to become a chicken, so how can it be the same as eating a chicken?

/karp

[ifrag]

Find one of those online places that sell eggwhites bulk online. THen buy BCAAs and whey/casein in bulk.

Because youll be avoiding meat, youll have to spend a buttload of cash on suppliments to replace what meat gives you.

If anything youll have the advantage of never having to chew any of your protein meals. Youll prob end up drinking it all.

[jrkarp]

Personally I like the texture of a nice, rare steak, but to each his own.

/karp

[gstlynx]

B12 and carnosine are the big things that you can't get from a vegetarian diet. All vegetarians should supplement with B12 and bodybuilding vegetarians should include carnosine.

If your moral code doesn't exclude it then fish oil is a great idea, dump the flax and other high calorie, ineffecient sources of EFAs.

[jasonk67401]

Do you eat chicken or fish?? I have heard that some veg. do. Cottage cheese is a good source of protein. You could also eat beans, nuts, and Legumes to get some protein.

[sonick]

There are a few handfuls of vegetarians on here that do fine without meat. Has never been a problem for me as long as I watch my diet. I did add fish and eggs after awhile though and still use dairy. I wouldn't consider eggs meat but an animal product like dairy or honey. Fish is meat of course, though I don't eat much. Sometimes I catch my own fish to eat.

If you get adequate vitamins and minerals (you can take vegetarian supplements too) and take whey and soy (phyto-estrogens are harmless, don't believe the hype), you'll be fine. You won't be missing on any secret amino acids only found in a steak. Both have complete proteins, though whey is slightly superior for supplementing essential amino acids. The big meat-eaters in my home spend more on food than I do and suffer from high cholesterol and other complications from their diet, not to mention increased risk of colan cancer.

I think it is ok to meat, in a limited and varied way. Too much fish or red meat isn't good for you, and being vegan is pretty rough as well.

Creatine might be a concern for you if it is an animal product. I'm not sure if it is.

http://www.johnstonefitness.com/
This guy posted a sticky on here. He was mostly vegetarian, and did pretty well IMO.

[sugarface]

there have been some modestly successful bodybuilders who shun flesh. since you're willing to consume eggs & dairly (lacto-ovo-vegetarian), you can get by just fine by eating plenty of eggs, cottage cheese, whey, and casein. creatine can make a HUGE difference for vegetarians, and supplemental creatine does not come from animals (i'm almost certain anyway). brewer's yeast, spirulina, and wheat grass have lots of protein, too, if you want variety. one good way to make every vegetarian meal more protein-rich & amino acid-complete would be to take a few whey tablets with any meal that does not have eggs or dairy.

[basiletereadymi]

i am a vegatarian. are there any supplements other than the usual whey, creatine, multi, EFA's, that I should be taking?

also, i do manage to get 1.5g of protien per pound through milk, tofu, cheese, eggs/

u should eat tuna fish and alot off egges try to aviod milk it has a lot of carbos. and u should drink why protine

[xxxjeetxxx]

i am a vegatarian. are there any supplements other than the usual whey, creatine, multi, EFA's, that I should be taking?

also, i do manage to get 1.5g of protien per pound through milk, tofu, cheese, eggs/

I think I had the similar situation like yours until I started eating Chicken to get some proteins. I think eating meat is a personal choice and if ur inner feeling is not for it, don't go for it..

Looking at the protein level that you are intaking, it's looks good. Try taking Cytogainer for gaining mass and protein, whey protein for protein and white eggs.

Also, do three times cardio / three times lift a week.

Also, if u eat oily food, stop consuming it coz i know lot of people who don't eat meat, eat oily/fried stuff...

[JDB]

If you Google 'Vegetarian Bodybuilder'.. You will find pages of a few Bodybuilders who happen to be vegetarian.. Theyre ripped..

[sonick]

Also, if u eat oily food, stop consuming it coz i know lot of people who don't eat meat, eat oily/fried stuff...

I had that problem. There is that desire for something heavy to sit in your stomach (which is meat for a lot of people), and fried foods and heavy cheeses used to be my weakness. Substituting seafood and soy products cured that problem and helped me lose some fat.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I would try to avoid the tofu, maybe add some almonds

[sammylou]

i think you are suggesting that tofu (soy), lowers test levels. It does not, that is a myth, they just disproved it and i will post the study when i find it. Otherwise, thanks for the great info.

[sonick]

i think you are suggesting that tofu (soy), lowers test levels. It does not, that is a myth, they just disproved it and i will post the study when i find it.

Unless you happen to be a plant.

[gstlynx]

and soy (phyto-estrogens are harmless, don't believe the hype), you'll be fine. You won't be missing on any secret amino acids only found in a steak.

Keep repeating that to yourself and you'll be fine. However, the data indicates otherwise.

Check out the following and note the later findings from the same cohort showed that those who consumed the most tofu had shrunken brains at autopsy.
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/Refs/Brain.htm

Association of mid-life consumption of tofu with late life cognitive impairment and dementia: the Honolulu-Asia Aging Study.
White L, Petrovich H, Ross GW, Masaki K.
Fifth International Conference on Alzheimer's Disease, #487, 27 July 1996, Osaka, Japan.
Abstract
Tofu and other soybean foods contain isoflavones - three ringed molecules bearing structural resemblance to steroidal hormones and having significant estrogen agonistic or antagonistic activities apparently related to their interactions with estrogen receptors and/or with enzymes involved in estrogen metabolism.
There is evidence suggesting that estrogens modulate neural and synaptic plasticity during aging. Male neurons have both estrogen and androgen receptors. Further, an enzyme (aromatase) that converts androgens to estrogens has been demonstrated in the medial forebrain, limbic system, hippocampus, and hypothalamus.
It was hypothesized that men had consistently high dietary intakes of tofu during middle life would experience different patterns of cognitive decline and dementia in late life, compared with men reporting little or no tofu consumption.
The Honolulu-Asia Aging Study is a longitudinal study of aging and dementia conducted in Japanese-American men who are members of the Honolulu Heart Program cohort. Mid-life patterns of consumption of tofu and several other foods were defined on the basis of food frequency interviews conducted in 1965 and 1972. The Cognitive Abilities Screening Instrument was administered to more than three thousand surviving participants aged 71-93 years during the 1991-93 examination cycle. DSM-HI-R, NINCDS-ADRDA, and California criteria were use for the diagnosis of dementia (all cause), AD and VsD.
We found an association of consistently high levels of tofu consumption in mid-life with low cognitive test scores (p=0.02) and (independently) with Alzheimer's disease in late life, controlling for all other relevant variables. The odds ratio for AD in persons who reported eating tofu at least twice weekly was 2.4 (95% CI 1.14-5.09), compared with persons reporting tofu consumption rarely or never.

Life-style risk factors for cognitive impairment.
White LR, Foley DJ, Havlik RJ
In: Strategies to prevent cognitive decline in late life, Fillit H, Butler RN, editors. London: Greenwich Medical Media; 1997. p. 23-32.
Abstract
The EDB Program of NIA is involved in an epidemiological study of about 3,500 older Japanese-American men in Honolulu, Hawaii. As has been mentioned, prevalence rates of Alzheimer’s disease are higher than in Japan. This study offers some unique features, which should be highlighted. This population has been under observation for about 25 years; so, data were collected many years earlier, before any effect of dementia could distort the data. Data were primarily on cardiovascular risk factors including dietary intake and indicators of cultural differences (more or less traditional Japanese). Preliminary results are available on a number of potential risk factors for Alzheimer’s disease. There is no relationship with alcohol consumption, smoking, years of education, or low complexity occupations including working in sugar-cane or pineapple fields. What is unexpected, and somewhat inconsistent with the hypothesis of westernization being related to increased Alzheimer’s disease, is the unexplained finding that components of the traditional Japanese diet, which include a high intake of green tea, tofu, and miso soup, are positively associated with Alzheimer’s disease. This finding is being pursued in further analyses. Also, an unusual aspect of the study is a high autopsy rate among participants. The situation will allow study of structure-function relationships, including correlation of ante-mortem factors with Alzheimer’s disease-specific findings of plaques and tangles and brain size. It is quite possible that certain factors will be related to structural changes and others to the clinical manifestations of Alzheimer’s disease. It should be possible to evaluate these complex interrelationships within this rather unique population.

Long-term potentiation in the hippocampus is blocked by tyrosine kinase inhibitors.
O'Dell TJ, Kandel ER, Grant SG
Nature 1991 Oct 10 353:6344 558-60
Abstract
Long-term potentiation (LTP) in the hippocampus is thought to contribute to memory formation. In the Ca1 region, LTP requires the NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor-dependent influx of Ca2+ and activation of serine and threonine protein kinases. Because of the high amount of protein tyrosine kinases in hippocampus and cerebellum, two regions implicated in learning and memory, we examined the possible additional requirement of tyrosine kinase activity in LTP. We first examined the specificity in brain of five inhibitors of tyrosine kinase and found that two of them, lavendustin A and genistein, showed substantially greater specificity for tyrosine kinase from hippocampus than for three serine-threonine kinases: protein kinase A, protein kinase C, and Ca2+/calmodulin kinase II. Lavendustin A and genistein selectively blocked the induction of LTP when applied in the bath or injected into the postsynaptic cell. By contrast, the inhibitors had no effect on the established LTP, on normal synaptic transmission, or on the neurotransmitter actions attributable to the actions of protein kinase A or protein kinase C. These data suggest that tyrosine kinase activity could be required postsynaptically for long-term synaptic plasticity in the hippocampus. As Ca2+ calmodulin kinase II or protein kinase C seem also to be required, the tyrosine kinases could participate postsynaptically in a kinase network together with serine and threonine kinases.

http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/1088/

What's more, higher midlife tofu consumption was also associated with low brain weight. Brain atrophy was assessed in 574 men using MRI results and in 290 men using autopsy information. Shrinkage occurs naturally with age, but for the men who had consumed more tofu, White said "their brains seemed to be showing an exaggeration of the usual patterns we see in aging."

[sonick]

You have some pretty good info there. I'm pretty surprised.

If this can be reproduced I would cut back on my soy intake quite a bit.
I never considered issues of brain weight, I react in defense of soy because of the idea that they contain actual estrogen that ruins a man's muscle gains. A lot of basic plant hormones have different structures and won't activate human receptors from what I've learned. Ever since a GNC worker told me I was going to get gyno from soy protein, I've been prety defensive about the stuff. I also stand by my opinion on diets high in red meat. I'm talking about people that eat red meat every day, often times twice or three times. Compared to the worst things I've read about soy, I'd still take it as an alternative to a diet high in red meat. The info that sammy mentioned might be one of the studies that measured test. levels and gains from 2 pools- one consuming mostly soy and the other mostly whey. I've seen in posted before, as well as others contradicting the soy-estrogen theories. What made me even more suspicious is the promotion of the soy-estrogen ties by companies that manufacture OTC soy products for menopause, though the use of soy in legitimate medical practice as a hormone therapy is unheard of.

For myself, I don't consume a diet high in soy. I'll usually have one serving a day of a soy product, and use dairy/whey/cottage cheese/eggs/fish as my pool of protein foods. I said it before about meat, I think eating meat is ok for most people as long as they don't consume excessive ammounts of fish or red meat. Maybe too much of anything isn't good for you.

[gstlynx]

You have some pretty good info there. I'm pretty surprised.

If this can be reproduced I would cut back on my soy intake quite a bit.
I never considered issues of brain weight, I react in defense of soy because of the idea that they contain actual estrogen that ruins a man's muscle gains.
I said it before about meat, I think eating meat is ok for most people as long as they don't consume excessive ammounts of fish or red meat. Maybe too much of anything isn't good for you.

Excessive amounts of fish? You must be kidding, right? The whole mercury thing is totally overblown. Do you know how they measure mercury in fish, they take the whole fish and throw it in a blender and measure the mercury level. How many people here eat fish livers, brains and eyes?

Meat in itself is not a problem, high levels of arachadonic acid are a problem. IF you eat grass fed meat you won't have any problems with arachadonic acid.

[UberBerzerker]

Sorry, I know this adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, but I found it funny and a rather odd coincidence that I came across this just a while ago.....


<img src=http://www.bustedtees.com/images/vegetarian.149.gallery_normal.jpg>

[crazylucci]

Yes, eat meat, its abnormal not to! Drink protein shakes and take multivitamins. Zinc and amino acids are good too.

He does eat meat: TUBESTEAK!! LOL...Nahh jus kiddin...Tofu is trash SOY!

[sammylou]

i only eat tofu like once every 2 weeks thats it.

[kasso99]

Sorry, I know this adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, but I found it funny and a rather odd coincidence that I came across this just a while ago.....


<img src=http://www.bustedtees.com/images/vegetarian.149.gallery_normal.jpg>

On that note...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

Good luck on the vegetarian bodybuilding crusade. It's pretty admirable to see that with a huge limitation (no meat), you're still willing to do whatever it takes to get the body you want!

[ericgonzalez]

Sam, it seems to me supplemental protein is arguably the most important "supplement" you can consume, so I'd start there. Whey and Casein are derivatives of milk, and these ingredients make up the bulk of protein supplements. It seems to me some of your supplementation options may depend on whether you consider ingesting milk products or not ok. Since you seem to be ok with milk, then I'd definitely make Whey a staple. I beleive Glutamine peptides are derivatives of wheat, and should be ok for you post workout (please double check me there). Obviously Soy protein is an option as well, which I believe bodybuilding.com sells (manufactured by Optimum nutrition, if I remember correctly.) Another alternative you may also want to consider is rice protein extract, which you may need to dig around for online.

As for some of the other supplements, let's take a look at the basics. With respect to fatty acids, Fish oil is likely not an option, but Sesamin should be ok, since it is an extract of sesame seeds. Enova (made from soy) and olive oil (obviously from olives) are also good fats. Multivitamins will usually list whether they are vegetrian suitable or not. Green tea is a good overall health supplement as well. Creatine I think is dervied from meat products, so I'm not sure that's something you would consider using, but I'm not sure here either. If you're looking for any kind of thermogenic product, test booster, or NO booster, your options are the same as for carnivores.

Hope that helps,

E

[sonick]

Excessive amounts of fish? You must be kidding, right? The whole mercury thing is totally overblown. Do you know how they measure mercury in fish, they take the whole fish and throw it in a blender and measure the mercury level. How many people here eat fish livers, brains and eyes?

Meat in itself is not a problem, high levels of arachadonic acid are a problem. IF you eat grass fed meat you won't have any problems with arachadonic acid.

I don't remember saying mercury. It has more to do with the type of fish, where it lives, what it eats. You could get away with a lot of tuna, but a few weekly servings of local mackerel, and even less of fish that live and feed only near the shore in polluted areas.

Maybe I should clarify the meat issue. It comes with the American typical heavy meat eater and their poor diets.