Black's are no longer a single race

[Pump Freak 86]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16281886

Morning Edition, November 14, 2007 ? A new poll by the Pew Research Center shows many African-Americans say they can no longer be seen as a single race. Work ethic and education are creating a class divide. Nearly 40 percent of low-income blacks say they have nothing in common with middle-income and poor blacks.

News Analysis
by Juan Williams

NPR.org, November 13, 2007 ? One of the most damaging forces tearing at young black people in America today is the popular culture's pernicious image of what an "authentic" black person is supposed to look like and how that person is supposed to act.

For example, VH-1's highly rated Flavor of Love show features a black man in a clownish hat, a big clock hanging around his neck, spewing the N-word while demeaning black women. And hip-hop music videos celebrate the "Thug Life" and "gansta" attitude for any young black person seeking strong racial identity.

But a critic who points out that this so-called culture is defeatist and damaging ? because it leads to high drop-out rates, record black-on-black murder statistics and a record number of out-of-wedlock births ? is dismissed as a prude and a censor. Anyone questioning lyrics that glorify violence and make it cool to treat women as sex toys is told that the words reflect the reality of black life, and that they are "acting white."

Well, today there is new fuel for the debate.

A poll released by the Pew Research Center, in association with NPR, finds that 67 percent of black men and 74 percent of black women think rap music is a bad influence on black America. In fact, 59 percent of black men and 63 percent of black women think the whole hip-hop industry ? from the jailhouse fashion of pants hanging low, to indifference to work and school ? is equally detrimental to black America.

White and Hispanic Americans agree, too. The Pew poll finds 64 percent of whites and 59 percent of Hispanics agree on the damaging impact of hip hop.

This Pew poll is a uniquely reliable measure of black opinion. Unlike most polls, it has a large sample of black people, in addition to whites and Hispanics. Most polls include such a small number of blacks and Hispanics that it is hard to draw reliable conclusions about racial issues. This poll is different and its findings are stunning.

Damaging Media Images

For example, young black people are the most upset (when compared to older blacks in the poll) about the way black Americans are portrayed on television and in the movies. Blacks under the age of 50 are much more likely to say media images of black people are worse today than they were 10 years ago.

And the proportion of young black people in the 18-29 age group who condemn the current media images of black people is 31 percent ? higher than the 25 percent of blacks between the ages of 30-49, and the 17 percent of blacks in the 50-64 age group with similar disdain for black images in the media.

Similarly, when asked if the portrayal of black people on television and in the movies is harmful, it is young black people who most likely scream "Yes!" More than half (54 percent) of 18- to 29-year-old African Americans say black people are presented in a negative way in movies and TV shows. Fifty percent of black people ages 34-49 agree.

It is interesting to note that among black people 65 and older ? who may have lived through times of rank racial images, from Amos 'n Andy-type minstrel shows to blaxploitation movies ? the percentage concerned about current negative portrayals of black people drops to 18 percent.

Note that in every age group, the level of outrage about troubling images in movies and on TV is far less than the alarm over the corrosive impact of rap and hip-hop.

These revealing cultural findings are just part of a series of revelations about the reality of black opinion today.

Falling Concern over Immigration

Take the explosive subject of immigration. Last year, an anti-immigration group in Los Angeles, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, pulled together a group of black academics and activists to announce that most black Americans oppose guest-worker programs, want to close the U.S. border with Mexico and favor rounding up illegal immigrants. This got wide attention and was cited as Congress struggled with immigration reform earlier this year.

But the Pew poll finds that only 28 percent of African Americans say illegal immigration represents a "very big/big problem" in their community. There is a split on the question of whether blacks would have more job opportunities if there were fewer immigrants. The poll found 46 percent of black Americans disagree with that statement, while 44 percent agree.

When a poll asked a similar question in 1986, nearly three-quarters of black respondents said blacks would have more job opportunities if there were fewer immigrants. That would indicate that despite the higher profile of immigration today, black concern over the issue has actually dropped dramatically.

The level of concern over illegal immigration in black America is about the same as it is in white America (30 percent) and lower than it is among Hispanics (44 percent).

The big concerns for black Americans are lack of good jobs (58 percent); unwed mothers (50 percent); crime (49 percent); and drop-out rates (46 percent).

A Single Race?

Another revelatory finding in the Pew poll is that 37 percent of African Americans now agree that it is no longer appropriate to think of black people as a single race. A little more than half of the black people polled ? 53 percent ? agreed that it is right to view blacks as a single race. And the people most likely to say blacks are no longer a single race are young black people, ages 18-29.

Forty-four percent of those young black people say there is no one black race anymore, as compared to 35 percent of the 30- to 49-year-old black population, and 34 percent of the black people over age 65.

The split in the black race comes down to a matter of values, according to the poll. In response to the question, "Have the values of middle-class and poor blacks become more similar or more different?" 61 percent of black Americans said "more different." White Americans agreed, with 54 percent saying there is a growing values gap between the black middle class and the black poor; 45 percent of Hispanics agreed, too.

At the same time, 72 percent of whites, 54 percent of blacks, and 60 percent of Hispanics agree that in the last 10 years, "values held by black people and the values held by white people (have) become more similar."

Making It in America

This leads to what may be the most important finding in the poll: 53 percent of black Americans now agree that "blacks who can't get ahead are mostly responsible for their own condition."

White America (71 percent) and Hispanic America (59 percent) agree that racism, while still a factor in American life, is not the principal force keeping poor black people in poverty. The more oppressive force, they seem to be saying, is a lack of strong families and the prevalence of values that do not emphasize education, hard work and perseverance.

It is important to note that this is not some Pollyannaish view that ignores the reality of racism. Sixty-eight percent of blacks say they deal with racial discrimination today in at least two of the categories of experience cited in the poll: such as applying for jobs, buying a house, renting an apartment, applying for college, shopping or dining out.

But even with that hard-edged view of how often they have to deal with discrimination, a majority of black people say that regardless of the race of an individual, a black person can make it in America.

That is a very different tune from the one the rap lyrics want you to believe ? the one that says black people are all victims unless they are society's thugs, pimps and criminals.

Your thoughts? I think his analysis comes up short at times, like how he doesn't acknowledge the racism that allows the rap industry to even exist and makes its imagery a believable stereotype of black people when the statistical majority of us disagree with rap imagery.

[JAGERBOY]

Interesting and refreshing.

[JUSA]

I don't blame them. The Media/Hollywood are the most racist money-grubbing sellouts imaginable. Liberals really are the worst racists. Dumb rednecks who might stupidly think less of someone because of their color is one thing, but these so-called enlightened liberal types are so much worse. One they should know better, but they're such hypocrits about it and always so judgemental on "red states" who by-and-large treat people right.

OT: OP, dude how is it possible you're under 180 lbs? You look WAY bigger than that... good work, man.

[Pump Freak 86]

I don't blame them. The Media/Hollywood are the most racist money-grubbing sellouts imaginable. Liberals really are the worst racists. Dumb rednecks who might stupidly think less of someone because of their color is one thing, but these so-called enlightened liberal types are so much worse. One they should know better, but they're such hypocrits about it and always so judgemental on "red states" who by-and-large treat people right.

OT: OP, dude how is it possible you're under 180 lbs? You look WAY bigger than that... good work, man.

Small joints and a very light bone structure. I was 6'0 and 115 before I started training. I could put my finger and thumb around my biceps.

And yes, liberal racism is just as deleterious as "conservative" racism. Really, there is no difference, there's just a deluded populace that thinks their politics shield them from being subjects to cultural hegemonic structures like racism, classism, homophobia, sexism, etc.

[Fidelis]

A poll released by the Pew Research Center, in association with NPR, finds that 67 percent of black men and 74 percent of black women think rap music is a bad influence on black America. In fact, 59 percent of black men and 63 percent of black women think the whole hip-hop industry ? from the jailhouse fashion of pants hanging low, to indifference to work and school ? is equally detrimental to black America.

White and Hispanic Americans agree, too. The Pew poll finds 64 percent of whites and 59 percent of Hispanics agree on the damaging impact of hip hop.

[notorius1]

I've been saying this for ****ing ever.

[MaddenMuscle]

The only people who can change the current situation for the black community, is the black community. The problem is entirely internal.

[kajara3]

I've been saying this for ****ing ever.

notoriusBIG is that you?



lol.

[GrassAndRocks]

Small joints and a very light bone structure. I was 6'0 and 115 before I started training. I could put my finger and thumb around my biceps.

And yes, liberal racism is just as deleterious as "conservative" racism. Really, there is no difference, there's just a deluded populace that thinks their politics shield them from being subjects to cultural hegemonic structures like racism, classism, homophobia, sexism, etc.

What are you, some kind of socialist commie pinko slut!?!

How dare you mention classism? Didn't you know this forum thrives on the idea of class domination. That's why it has such a large conservative/libertarian base.

Duh.

Oh and, I havn't actually gotten to read the article yet, but I will when I get home from work. Looks interesting.

[karnavor]

No ****. There's the ghetto and gangster blacks then there's the smart blacks. Sorry if it sounds stupid but it's the truth.

[GrassAndRocks]

No ****. There's the ghetto and gangster blacks then there's the smart blacks.

There's "ghetto" and "gangster" everyone. It's a societal status that is derived out of poverty, often times being mimicked by suburban kids attempting to relate to something, but having no strong personal identity.

And some of the smartest black men were at one point "ghetto" and "gangsters." Malcolm X springs to mind. Huey Newton. Fred Hampton. The list goes on and on. There isn't two specific distinctions, often times those roles collide and fuse, other times they are separate and you get "smart blacks" like Condeleeza Rice who could give a **** what happens to the rest of black people, because she maintains her position within the ruling class.

[karnavor]

There's "ghetto" and "gangster" everyone. It's a societal status that is derived out of poverty, often times being mimicked by suburban kids attempting to relate to something, but having no strong personal identity.

And some of the smartest black men were at one point "ghetto" and "gangsters." Malcolm X springs to mind. Huey Newton. Fred Hampton. The list goes on and on. There isn't two specific distinctions, often times those roles collide and fuse, other times they are separate and you get "smart blacks" like Condeleeza Rice who could give a **** what happens to the rest of black people, because she maintains her position within the ruling class.

Yes I know that but then it divides. Theres the people who relish that culture then theres the people who work to get out of it and get into a good college.

[resurrected]

may be a bit OT, did not read the post completely, but.....Dunno but perhaps I am wrong. I see " african american" or " black america'. Umm this is stereo typing? Let me ask this, are you from africa? Why not call yourself americans and leave it at that? I am mostly native american, but do not consider myself american indian, I am american and I am identified as this.
Maybe this could be the first start to look at at for change.
Next when person who is not the same color comes to certain neighborhoods, treat them with kindness, not with hatred. Too many times i have gone to ghettos to be treated as ****. I went there to help out someone and always had many people treat me like i did not belong.
See to make changes all of must suffer through these changes. We suffered by getting shot in the back and fell into graves we dug ourselves, now we offer respect and kindness to those who offer the same. Will you follow suit?

[notorius1]

Why not call yourself americans and leave it at that?

'Cuz the white man wanted to label everyone and gave the very PC term "African-American" to the blacks. It kinda made everyone I suppose.

[notorius1]

The only people who can change the current situation for the black community, is the black community. The problem is entirely internal.

That and if certain school districts like LAUSD did their part, certain communities would fair a lot better.

[karnavor]

That and if certain school districts like LAUSD did their part, certain communities would fair a lot better.

It doesn't help that they destroy their communities through gangs, murder and drugs.

[notorius1]

It doesn't help that they destroy their communities through gangs, murder and drugs.

Not at all and I 100% agree with you on that end, but what is to happen to those that strive to be better and get good grades and those who want to get into Yale and such? How can they without the basic learning materials such books?

[aeons]

Small joints and a very light bone structure. I was 6'0 and 115 before I started training. I could put my finger and thumb around my biceps.

And yes, liberal racism is just as deleterious as "conservative" racism. Really, there is no difference, there's just a deluded populace that thinks their politics shield them from being subjects to cultural hegemonic structures like racism, classism, homophobia, sexism, etc.

Nice physique dude, that gives me hope. I started at 5'11 120.

[xer0xed]

I guess many people are now discovering that it is not normal to be "ghetto" or "gangsta." :P

This could explain all of the black people protesting BET and MTV recently, realizing how degrading the portrayal these channels give is and the lack of sense or morals in the whole bling/booty deal. Hopefully one day this whole materialistic deal will be looked back on as a fad or stage.

[GrassAndRocks]

It doesn't help that they destroy their communities through gangs, murder and drugs.

Read a god damn history book before you spew this garbage. What has happened every time the black community HAS tried to make a difference? The Black Panthers? FBI assassinations, unjustified prison sentences, counterfeiting letters to create disruption, internal spys, vicious and violent police attacks, and on and on and on.

If you want to be real about it, the Black Panther Party was destroyed, a lot of the leading intellectuals and people speaking out and getting young men out of gangs and into the political realm were either in prison, shot and killed, put to death, in exile (Assata Shakur), or in some other predicament where they were absent. This left a complete power vacuum, and any time you have poverty and no help and a ****ty education system, what happens? You get gangs. It's nothing new to the black community, the big difference is that when they HAVE tried to improve themselves they have met horrendous FBI oppression. So you have a political vacuum, and who takes over? The only ones left, the thugs and pimps and dealers and the only role models the young kids have left. They see these guys getting money when they or thier family have never had it, and thats what you grow up around, that's what you see.

On top of that would you like to go into the apartheid type school system we have set up in this country? The bull**** way of funding through property taxes? Want to analyze why black and latino men and women go to ****ty, poor quality schools (along with some poor whites) while the majority of whites go to suburban or private schools?

Shall we go into the broken homes? The ridiculously high incarceration rate of black youths? The unjust "justice" system? The legal lynching that black men face? The all-white juries and the lack of a good lawyer?

No one is saying it's not possible to get out, or that it doesn't happen. But for every one person that does, there are many more that do not.

Listen, conditions lead to actions. Poverty leads to crime. Want to get rid of crime? Get rid of poverty. It can't be done under capitalism. It's not the black communities fault, it's not the poor white people's fault, it's the capitalists fault. You can't get rid of poverty with the hoarding of wealth. It's impossible.

So no, it's not just the "black community" that can help the black community. It's the entire working class that can make a difference. That being said, groups like the New Black Panthers Party are a sham and do not represent in any way the original ideals of Huey Newton and Bobby Seale's program.

Anyway all to often I hear white suburban kids who have grown up nice talking about how "black should just work hard and get out of poverty." It's not that easy. The black and latino people I know who do live in poor conditions are some of the hardest working people I have ever known. Working two jobs, trying thier hardest to make ends meet, struggling day in and day out. People don't resort to crime and drugs because they want to, they resort to it because they have no other choice, they see no other way out.

And speaking of drugs, where is the **** coming from? I don't see black people owning boats and planes transporting the **** over here. Who allowed massive drug deals to happen in exchange for information and so called "communists" in Latin America? Ronald Reagen. And speaking of drugs, since when did the black prison population boom in the U.S.? Ever since his "drug war" in the 1980's. A large amount of blacks are in prison for victim less crimes, drug possession and bull**** of that nature. Yet where is the funding for prevention programs and rehabilitation? Why do people come out of jail worse than they came in? Why is the prison a for profit private industry?

Don't get the impression I'm saying blacks are helpless, or that it's the "white man's burden" to "fix" things. But be real, whites have dominated blacks for hundreds of years in this country. 40 years ago blacks couldn't vote. I mean, really, that wasn't that long ago. Bull**** like the Jena 6 and Sean Bell still goes on. Blacks still face harassment from pigs day in and day out. Right here in Toledo back at the end of 2005 a black man named Jeffery Turner was tazered (9 times) to death. His crime? Loitering. That's some bull****.

I could go on and on, but seriously, read before you talk **** you don't know anything about.

[TheGunther]

Can any one say results of a conditioned soceity?

If the numbers indicated in the article are true, and we can gather that the majority of young blacks feel this way, then I believe we are on a great path. I believe we are coming to a point in society that if you do not succeed it really is your own doing. There really is no excuse for some one of any race not to get an education or have the opportunity to go beyond what they have been conditioned in soceity to be.

Although we have made great strides since the civil rights movement, we are still stuck in sort of a rut when it comes to advancing our society in terms of civil equality. Take the media for example. Every time a black man is the first in a certain position the media outlets must pronouce it to the world. Why? He is a man, an american, hopefully qualified for the position. Until we move beyond who of what color did what, we will never move forward.

[Pump Freak 86]

The only people who can change the current situation for the black community, is the black community. The problem is entirely internal.

This is the pragmatic root of what Juan Williams was talking about in the article when he mentioned "uncle toms".

Racism is still a big problem and, in my opinion, it psyches out a lot of "urban blacks" or "ghetto people" from pushing forward. In my work with underprivileged youth, I have become aware at their hopelessness in working through the system before them. They know they go to poor quality schools, have access to poor quality academic support, are functioning in a society that automatically saddles them with labels of inferiority and criminality, etc. These are institutions that for the most part are controlled outside of the reach of black people. Most normal people would crack under the pressure of overcoming all of that, and that is precisely what you see in ghetto communities. Normal people responding in normal ways to the situations that they face. To say that these problems are internal is very far off. These problems are multifaceted and complex. SOME of the roots of these problems are certainly within black communities and SOME of the roots are outside of the communities. However, American society doesn't seem capable of processing the concept of a "both...and" statement. No one seems to want to admit that "Both the black America and 'mainstream' America are responsible for the conditions of the ghettos".

Everybody wants to play the blame game, and unfortunately, when many white people come in contact with an internal critique of black communities, they have a tendency to exonerate themselves, resolving to the "its not us its them" thing. That's a mistake. It places those progressive black folks who see opportunities to diagnose community weaknesses (a vital step in forward progress) as traitors, which actually does a lot to create a social climate whereby forward progress is perceived as being contrary to group interests. This is a very dangerous social climate that is actually out of the control of the black community. There are things that need to be done that will demand black, white, asian, latino, etc participation, but by polarizing group interests as us vs them, it makes it difficult to find working solutions since none are theoretically possible without widespread revolution.

One must remember that there is no "black community" that exists in a vacuum. Black, white, Asian, Latino, gay, lesbian, transgendered, etc communities interact with each other on a continual basis, influencing each other all the time. It is a little shortsighted to think that the materialism that spurns the urge to be a gangster is not connected with the hyper-efficient material acquisition obsession that is virtually inborn in American culture as a whole. In the ghetto, people who don't have or don't feel that they have (also important) will resort to whatever means they have to partake in the American dream. Very few people want to be gangsters out of pathological criminality, they are attracted to the social prestige (e.g fear in the eyes of others), money, clothes, cars, houses, cell phones, etc. Those people actually want the same things you and I want, but where we have opportunities to gain those things through education and gainful employment, the people who don't have those options must resort to other measures. That places them in a serious moral dilemma because like most people, black people subscribe to ideals of right and wrong. As a result, a culture was manufactured that restores the basic human dignity lost in the commission and romanticization of crime. American society in general glorifies crime, but certain communities do it in different ways. Mainstream America does it by glorifying the theft of territory for this nation as "Manifest Destiny", makes movies about Caribbean pirates, and tv shows about crime families in New Jersey. This influence is particularly deleterious in the ghetto because people are already in such a precarious position and are the object of criminal surveillance as a function of widely held stereotypes.

However, there is also an overwhelming inability to critically asses the negatives of general American culture, let alone connect them as components to what is happening in the ghetto. This is very dangerous because it is the sort of mentality that produces impotent solutions to highly potent problems.

[Big Hype]

Read a god damn history book before you spew this garbage.

History books contradict the hell out of each other depending on WHO wrote and published the ****.

What has happened every time the black community HAS tried to make a difference? The Black Panthers?

The Black Panthers were extremists who believed in Black Supremacism. If that's how you try and make a difference I am glad it was destroyed.

FBI assassinations, unjustified prison sentences, counterfeiting letters to create disruption, internal spys, vicious and violent police attacks, and on and on and on.

Cite sources plz.

And what makes you think prison sentences were unjustified? WHO were they jailing? Black Panthers? Nation of Islam racists?

Besides, blacks themselves have faked hate crimes before.

If you want to be real about it, the Black Panther Party was destroyed, a lot of the leading intellectuals and people speaking out and getting young men out of gangs and into the political realm were either in prison, shot and killed, put to death, in exile (Assata Shakur), or in some other predicament where they were absent.

These "intellectuals" were racist bigots. Boo-hoo. Good f-cking riddance.

This left a complete power vacuum, and any time you have poverty and no help and a ****ty education system, what happens? You get gangs.

Gangs happen even in upper echelons of society. I'm sure you've heard of the Mafia. Hardly a poor man's street organization that punched and kicked their way to power.

It's nothing new to the black community, the big difference is that when they HAVE tried to improve themselves they have met horrendous FBI oppression.

Really? Is FBI oppression stopping Liberia, Haiti and dozens of other black-run countries from improving themselves? Why is that Haiti, a tropical island with all the natural resources at its disposition is such a ****hole, compared to Iceland, a group of volcanic barren and windy rocks is thriving so well?

So you have a political vacuum, and who takes over? The only ones left, the thugs and pimps and dealers and the only role models the young kids have left. They see these guys getting money when they or thier family have never had it, and thats what you grow up around, that's what you see.

This is true.

On top of that would you like to go into the apartheid type school system we have set up in this country?

Where is this apartheid school system?

The bull**** way of funding through property taxes? Want to analyze why black and latino men and women go to ****ty, poor quality schools (along with some poor whites) while the majority of whites go to suburban or private schools?

Sources for the MAJORITY of whites going to suburban or private schools?

And since when is "suburban" considered any better than urban? There is no set rule that implies the suburbs are well off compared to the cities.

Shall we go into the broken homes?

Maybe this wouldn't happen if black men wouldn't be such ****ty absent fathers or it wouldn't happen if they thought to use condoms. I mean condoms are handed out in freaking schools now, and if not, they're damn cheap. I don't care how ****ty your education system is. If you don't know that not wearing a rubber will increase your chances of knocking a girl up, then you are a hopeless retard.

The ridiculously high incarceration rate of black youths? The unjust "justice" system?

High incarceration rate doesn't prove that the legal sytem is unjust.

The legal lynching that black men face? The all-white juries and the lack of a good lawyer?

Oh, I see. Juries made up of whites must be innately racist. Good to hear.

No one is saying it's not possible to get out, or that it doesn't happen. But for every one person that does, there are many more that do not.

Listen, conditions lead to actions. Poverty leads to crime. Want to get rid of crime? Get rid of poverty. It can't be done under capitalism. It's not the black communities fault, it's not the poor white people's fault, it's the capitalists fault. You can't get rid of poverty with the hoarding of wealth. It's impossible.

I see. So what do you suggest? As if America isn't trying hard enough to help these people. Affirmative Action ring a bell?

So no, it's not just the "black community" that can help the black community. It's the entire working class that can make a difference. That being said, groups like the New Black Panthers Party are a sham and do not represent in any way the original ideals of Huey Newton and Bobby Seale's program.

Same ****, different name.

Anyway all to often I hear white suburban kids who have grown up nice talking about how "black should just work hard and get out of poverty."

These days you'd be hard pressed to find a white person who even DARES think about race. White people these days are so scared of being labeled as racists that they don't even express their thoughts.

It's not that easy. The black and latino people I know who do live in poor conditions are some of the hardest working people I have ever known.

But you said earlier that they were criminals because they are poor. Now they are hardworking? Stop contradicting yourself.

Working two jobs, trying thier hardest to make ends meet, struggling day in and day out. People don't resort to crime and drugs because they want to, they resort to it because they have no other choice, they see no other way out.

Their stupidity is no testimony to reality. Just because they think there's no way out doesn't mean anything. But then again what can we expect from people who have a misogynistic, macho, and materialistic culture that emphasizes short term enjoyment?

And speaking of drugs, where is the **** coming from? I don't see black people owning boats and planes transporting the **** over here.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it ain't happening.

Who allowed massive drug deals to happen in exchange for information and so called "communists" in Latin America? Ronald Reagen.

Logical fallacy.

What may or may not have happened is no excuse for what is happening right now.

And speaking of drugs, since when did the black prison population boom in the U.S.? Ever since his "drug war" in the 1980's. A large amount of blacks are in prison for victim less crimes, drug possession and bull**** of that nature.

You're acting like they get life sentences or some ****. Crimes require penalties, deal with it.

Yet where is the funding for prevention programs and rehabilitation?

Are you ****ting me? Ever heard of D.A.R.E.? And rehab centers are in every major city, anyway, where most black people live.

Why do people come out of jail worse than they came in?

Ask that to the black prisoners who have weird fetishes about raping new inmates. Why is it that prison rape is much more common among black prisoners than other races? I guess it's the white man's fault again.

Why is the prison a for profit private industry?

That's how law works. But it has nothing to do with wanting to keep "da bruthas" down.

Don't get the impression I'm saying blacks are helpless, or that it's the "white man's burden" to "fix" things. But be real, whites have dominated blacks for hundreds of years in this country. 40 years ago blacks couldn't vote.

Women couldn't vote at some time, either. Do you see ghettos full of women or women shooting each other up in the streets or doing drugs left and right?

I mean, really, that wasn't that long ago. Bull**** like the Jena 6

Learn the facts about Jena 6. Justin Barker didn't hang that noose, and the noose wasn't even related to race issues, but to school mascot pride (the cowboys). Not to mention that the noose was hung about 6 months earlier than the beating. So the noose incident didn't even have **** to do with the beating. Oh, and remember that 6 black guys ganged up on ONE unsuspecting Justin Barker (they attacked him from behind) and beat him unconscious.

And you call the LAW racist for handling these punks? You are seriously deluded (or misinformed). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.

and Sean Bell still goes on. Blacks still face harassment from pigs day in and day out. Right here in Toledo back at the end of 2005 a black man named Jeffery Turner was tazered (9 times) to death. His crime? Loitering. That's some bull****.

Yeah, and that white guy was almost beaten to death. So what? Isolated incidents don't prove anything.

I could go on and on, but seriously, read before you talk **** you don't know anything about.

So can I. And oh the irony.

[notorius1]

The Black Panthers were extremists who believed in Black Supremacism. If that's how you try and make a difference I am glad it was destroyed.

Eh, The Panthers did things legally and were still targets dude. In fact,laws were changed because of this. Say what you will, they were positive and good for their communities at the time.

And since when is "suburban" considered any better than urban? There is no set rule that implies the suburbs are well off compared to the cities.

For the most part, the suburbs don't have what the city has-all the commotion that would distract a child.

I see. So what do you suggest? As if America isn't trying hard enough to help these people. Affirmative Action ring a bell?

Affirmative Action helps more than just blacks. You know, if certain people weren't bigots in the first place then people today wouldn't complain about social programs because they would not be in place at all.

What may or may not have happened is no excuse for what is happening right now.

Maybe but it can provide for legitimate reasoning as to why whatever is going on is still ongoing.

[kajara3]

Eh, The Panthers did things legally and were still targets dude. In fact,laws were changed because of this. Say what you will, they were positive and good for their communities at the time.







For the most part, the suburbs don't have what the city has-all the commotion that would distract a child.









Affirmative Action helps more than just blacks. You know, if certain people weren't bigots in the first place then people today wouldn't complain about social programs because they would not be in place at all.

why did you decide to quote that last part, but not say anything to reply to it?



i am just curious.

and, that is all.

[notorius1]

why did you decide to quote that last part, but not say anything to reply to it?



i am just curious.

and, that is all.

Technically I did. I just screwed up and included it in the original post.

[kajara3]

Technically I did. I just screwed up and included it in the original post.

ah.

i gotcha now.

lol.

[GrassAndRocks]

History books contradict the hell out of each other depending on WHO wrote and published the ****.

Right, so when a bunch of rich white men (predominantly) are writing history, what do you think the outcome will be?
mpton

Look up anything relating to COINTELPRO. Look up J. Edgar Hoover.

And what makes you think prison sentences were unjustified? WHO were they jailing? Black Panthers? Nation of Islam racists?

If you havn't noticed the extremely unjust court decisions in this country's history, obviously you've missed something, especially in the 1960's. Poor blacks get the shaft in our justice system. From moderately well to do all-white juries (hardly representative of the average black man, hardly their "peer" in any sense of the word), to ****ty lawyers, outright racist judges. What more do you want? Even today, someone who murders a white person is FIVE TIMES more likely to get the death penalty than someone who murders a black person. Look up the statistics.

Besides, blacks themselves have faked hate crimes before.

"Cite sources plz." I highly doubt this.

Besides, you can't "fake" murders, beatings, imprisonment, and other SERIOUS measures that the FBI conducted against the BPP and other civil rights groups.

These "intellectuals" were racist bigots. Boo-hoo. Good f-cking riddance.

How were they racist? How? Explain that to me. You can't. Again, how much Huey Newton have you read? Malcolm X post-Mecca?

And by your standards, we should be jailing every other "racist bigot." Why arn't the Minutemen in prison? Why arn't the various neo-Nazi and KKK groups in prison? Even if the BPP was remotely similiar to these groups, which it is not, your being hypocritical.

Anyway thats a purely academic discussion, since the BPP was not racist. Obviously you havn't read any serious literature from there, OR read their program.

Gangs happen even in upper echelons of society. I'm sure you've heard of the Mafia. Hardly a poor man's street organization that punched and kicked their way to power.

Are you a complete moron? Where did the east coast Italian Mafia start? Poor southern Italian immigrants. Where did the Sicilian mafia start? Poor outlaws in the 1860's. Both have their roots in poverty.

Really? Is FBI oppression stopping Liberia, Haiti and dozens of other black-run countries from improving themselves? Why is that Haiti, a tropical island with all the natural resources at its disposition is such a ****hole, compared to Iceland, a group of volcanic barren and windy rocks is thriving so well?

No, a history of colonialism and imperialism is. A history of European domination over Haiti, Liberia, and other "black-run" countries is a major contributing factor. How long was Iceland a colony again? How long did the Danish enslave Icelanders, destroy their culture and religion? Devastate their island and strip it of it's natural resources? Oh wait... that didn't happen. That's right.

It's easy to look at two things, ignore the historical context, and say "hey look, check out this example."

But if you know anything about studying history, that type of arguement doesn't hold up very well.

This is true.

Glad we agree.

Where is this apartheid school system?

Oh maybe you've never been in a poor urban school. Maybe you've never seen the ridiculously horrendous conditions of predominantly black schools.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005...tion1sep05.htm

Also read the book "American Apartheid."

Sources for the MAJORITY of whites going to suburban or private schools?

Are you serious? What kind of school did you go to? I went to a suburban school, I can vouch. I've went to Toledo public schools (poor urban schools), and again I can vouch. But you want stats?

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

And more importantly, what I meant by that, is that SUBURBAN & PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE PREDOMINATELY WHITE. I may have misworded my statement. Because white kids DO go to poor schools, and obviously whites are the majority in America.

And since when is "suburban" considered any better than urban? There is no set rule that implies the suburbs are well off compared to the cities.

Your lack of understanding in how public schools work is astounding. Public schools are funded predominately by property taxes. Suburbans are for the most part much wealthier than urban areas, and therefore the houses are worth more. This means that more money is funneled into suburban schools and less into public schools. This creates an unequal balance between funding for suburban schools. Have you ever been in an urban public school? They are, on average, very ****ty in comparison with suburban schools.

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/arc.../ineq181.shtml

Also read "The Quality of Inequality in Public Schools."

Maybe this wouldn't happen if black men wouldn't be such ****ty absent fathers or it wouldn't happen if they thought to use condoms. I mean condoms are handed out in freaking schools now, and if not, they're damn cheap. I don't care how ****ty your education system is. If you don't know that not wearing a rubber will increase your chances of knocking a girl up, then you are a hopeless retard.

Wow, besides the scathing racism laced in your post, again your ignorance shines above all. The stereotype of "runaway father" is a ridiculous one. More often than not the father is incarcerated (most likely TRYING to support his family, due mostly to the horrible conditions of poverty), cannot find a job that supports the family, or unfortunately is no longer alive to do it. Your stereotype of "black men not being good fathers" is ridiculous. At this post I almost question why I'm even wasting my time arguing with you, since your an obvious bigot.

High incarceration rate doesn't prove that the legal sytem is unjust.

Not necessarily, but I think anyone who takes an objective look at the injustice system in this country would find the evidence appalling. Your laziness in researching the topic doesn't change that fact.

Oh, I see. Juries made up of whites must be innately racist. Good to hear.

No one said that. But the white and black experience in America is much different. A suburban white attempting to judge a poor urban black man is not exactly fair, and neither are they his "peers" as outlined in the constitution.

I see. So what do you suggest? As if America isn't trying hard enough to help these people. Affirmative Action ring a bell?

Affirmative Action is a bandage on a gaping wound. If I stab you in your back with a knife and then pull it a quater of the way out, is that really helping you?

I suggest readjusting the education system. I suggest reparations. I suggest a lot of things. But more importantly, why don't we ask POOR BLACKS what they want? I bet you the answer would be jobs that PAY A DECENT LIVING WAGE. I may be wrong, but ask and see.

More importantly I suggest getting rid of a system that exploits and literally fuels racial tensions, that steals from the worker, and creates a cut-throat world full of bastards indoctrinated with avarice. I suggest a system based on workers democracy, not feudal industrialization.

[GrassAndRocks]

Same ****, different name.

Again, your obvious lack of any understanding of these people you wish to condemn is disgusting. Read, read, read.

These days you'd be hard pressed to find a white person who even DARES think about race. White people these days are so scared of being labeled as racists that they don't even express their thoughts.

Bull****. "Cite sources plz."

Even so, individual racism has nothing to do with institutionalized racism.

But you said earlier that they were criminals because they are poor. Now they are hardworking? Stop contradicting yourself.

Yes, people turn to "criminal" activities because they have no other choice. The hard working people I know have either turned to criminal activity before, OR constantly struggle, never making it further than they were the week before. It's vicious, and it's a sad cycle. I'm not contradicting myself, maybe you just can't interpret information correctly.

Their stupidity is no testimony to reality. Just because they think there's no way out doesn't mean anything. But then again what can we expect from people who have a misogynistic, macho, and materialistic culture that emphasizes short term enjoyment?

Ooh, I like your racism, prick.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it ain't happening.

Wow. Great logic there. With that logic I could say that you were responsible for knocking down the twin towers.

Just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not true.

Hmm, I'll use that one more often! Great! It works wonders when the one presenting the accusation doesn't have the evidence, I like it! Totally removes the whole "burden of proof" concept. How nifty.

Logical fallacy.

What may or may not have happened is no excuse for what is happening right now.

Oh right. Ignoring history (especially recent history) does a lot of good. Really helps you understand the problem.

What a dumb ass. Honestly, I thought you were actually going to present some real debate. But I was sorely mistaken.

You're acting like they get life sentences or some ****. Crimes require penalties, deal with it.

Yes, but why do we turn blacks into criminals for victim less "crimes"? Why is smoking a joint a crime? Because it correlates strongly with the poor, and class correlates strongly with race.

Are you ****ting me? Ever heard of D.A.R.E.? And rehab centers are in every major city, anyway, where most black people live.

Yes, DARE has done a great job, obviously. And how accessible are these rehabilitation centers? How accessible are these facilities? Can they accommodate the the amount of people needing them? How expensive are they? Are they provided in prison?

Ask that to the black prisoners who have weird fetishes about raping new inmates. Why is it that prison rape is much more common among black prisoners than other races? I guess it's the white man's fault again.

"Cite sources plz."

Oh I don't know, maybe because in certain prisons the black population outnumbers the white by far? Are we talking ratios here or numbers? There is a difference. I would love to see your information for that fact.

That's how law works. But it has nothing to do with wanting to keep "da bruthas" down.

Please refrain from moronic racist comments.

It has quite a lot to do with incarcerating blacks, latinos, and poor people in general.

Women couldn't vote at some time, either. Do you see ghettos full of women or women shooting each other up in the streets or doing drugs left and right?

Women still face inequality in the workplace, double standards in society, a bunch of other bull****. You know, like RAPE.

And where is the majority of hard drug use? Poor people, especially poor single mothers. Are you really this ignorant, or are you just messing with me?

Learn the facts about Jena 6. Justin Barker didn't hang that noose, and the noose wasn't even related to race issues, but to school mascot pride (the cowboys). Not to mention that the noose was hung about 6 months earlier than the beating. So the noose incident didn't even have **** to do with the beating. Oh, and remember that 6 black guys ganged up on ONE unsuspecting Justin Barker (they attacked him from behind) and beat him unconscious.

Yeah I've had this argument before. Regardless, racial tensions ran high. Whites had pulled guns on black students. The whites got no consequences for the nooses. There were various incidents before the fight. And even if they "ganged up" on Barker, he was calling them "******s" and if I was there I would have joined with them, and more importantly they shouldn't be facing TWENTY TWO YEARS in prison.

Yeah, and that white guy was almost beaten to death. So what? Isolated incidents don't prove anything.

Yeah, if it was an isolated incident, that would be different. It's not though. It happens ALL THE TIME. It happens constantly. Blacks face constant pig harrassment, so do latinos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lice_brutality

Those are just REPORTED AND NATIONALLY KNOWN CASES. This doesn't include the reports that arn't filed, the reports that don't get anywhere, and the cases such as Jeffery Turner's, which never made national news.

[BwiseLegalize]

To glass and rocks

You ever lived in the hood?, I see your always defending blacks

I went to Arsenal Technical high school in east side Indianapolis, IN, back in 04 time span

I was maybe the 10th white male in that school

I was jumped by blacks everyday, why?

CAUSE I WAS THE MINORITY, JUST TRYING TO LEARN

Imagine going to school, 10-20 blacks jumping you....Why?? Cause i would not take their **** or back down

Man if you've never been stabbed cause your a white boy in a all black high school, you have no idea

You need to start sticking up for white boys/men too

I had it rough, you just do not know