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  1. #1
    Registered User MrPWOShake's Avatar
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    The most powerfull supplement: Interesting Results

    Hi everyone, I am for the first time in my weightlifting/bodybuilding life, getting incredible results, and I am not sure why.
    maybe you all can help me figure this out.

    First a little bit of background, I usually lift weights for 6 months to a year max, then take a break. During the past several years, I have worker out as follows:

    Started working out for the first time since 1985, October 1997: 235lbs 30%+ bodyfat, with a 38-39" waist, I am overweight and out of shape.
    By November 1998, I am 222lbs @ 9-12% bodyfat, with a 34" waist.
    I had help during this period by using low dosages of Deca and Test for 6-8 week cycles with 6-8 weeks off between cycles.

    April 1999, stopped using all steroids forever, stopped working out.
    By October 2002, I had ballooned up to 240lbs and once again was overweight and out of shape, with almost a 40" waist!

    October 2002 - April 2003, worked out with nothing other than Protien, Creatine, Vitamins, UniLiver, and two short cycles of 1-T.
    Got down to 225lbs and 15% bodyfat, with a 36" waist.

    Stopped working out from May 2003 to March 2004, and worked out briefly until October 2004. Weight averaged 230lbs @ 15% - 18% body fat.

    Started working out again in June 2005, but this time bumped up both the protien, carbs, and fat, but calorie intake was only about 500 above or below maintenance at any given time, also started HIT training, i.e. 30 minute, very intense, heavy and hard workout with single sets to failure.

    Only suppliments, during this time period were as follows:
    4 weeks of Nitrix, CellMass, NoXplode from halfway thru July to present, and 1 week of 1-T and 4AD, which I stopped this past Monday.

    OK..here is where it gets interesting...while on the BSN stack, before taking the PH's for a week, I went from 235lbs @ 28% BF to 215lbs @ 14% BF.
    When I added the PH's I went from 215lbs to 221lbs @ 155 BF in ONE WEEK.
    During the past 5 days, in which I stopped taking the PH's, I gained an additional 5 lbs @ am now 226lbs @ 15% BF.
    I was bloated very badly while on the PH's, but actually gained vascularity back during the 5 days I was off them and lost the bloat.

    ok, here is the killer!
    My 300lb monster of a cousin, who I mention in my thread "Conversation with a 300lb monster", told me he drinks a protein shake immediately after his workout, another an hour later, and then a STEAK dinner, an hour after that, and then another protein shake just before bed.

    also, I felt better during my workouts during the periods I was OFF the PH's, and truth be told, my workout intensity sent down for the first time since taking the BSN stack, as soon as I added PH's..didnt even feel like working out.

    Well, during this past week off the PH's, which I only took for 7 days (2 1-T and 2 4AD ethergels, 3x a day), not only did I lose the bloat, but gained weight, vascularity, and muscle size!

    In fact, this whole time since June, my lower tri's are sticking out more than ever before, even more than while I was on gear back in 1997/1998.

    In fact my arms are bout to bust 18"!

    Why is this happening? I shouldnt be gaining weight, gaining vascularity, and muscle size after a short 1 week PH cycle.

    Here is what has changed the most during th epast 2 weeks I have made some really nice gains, I am doing what my cousin does with a little bit of variation..remember he takes d-bol and/or sustanon and I DONT take any, none since 1997/98:

    I drink my PWO shake immediately following my workout as always like him, but now, less than an hour later I eat steak and potatoes or Chicken breast and pasta, then another shake an hour after that, and another shake with only carbs and a tablespoon of peanut butter right before bed.
    The next day after my workout, day 1 of my 4 HITdays off, I eat a little more carbs and a little more protein, then the last 2 daya off, the 2 days before my next workout I cut back a bit on carbs, but maintain the protein.

    Unless, someone can convinve me otherwise, I feel these gains are from what I did post workout with my food...the most powerfull supplement.

    If this continues, I am gonna throw my old stale PH's out, I dont want the bloat...and I feel I dont need the PH's anymore with this diet and HIT.

    Or is this pure dumb luck?
    Any opinions?
    If I hit 230lbs, by the end of next week, I am gonna freak out, especially if my BF stays at 15% or lower, and my waistline stays at 35".
    Last edited by MrPWOShake; 08-12-2005 at 05:02 PM.
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  2. #2
    Banned whitedevil74's Avatar
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    Bump. I am very curious about this. Damn, I have all these pre-ban PH's that I stocked up on like WW III was about to break out and I was going to live in a bomb shelter for the next ten years.
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  3. #3
    Registered User littlechris's Avatar
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    My girlfriend's roommate was dating some K-1 guy who is 5'10" and weighed 230 lbs. Completely ripped. Looked like he was ready for a bb competition everyday. He told me that I was eating a good 1,700 calories a day less than I should've.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's the post-workout food in your case, like it was in mine. When I started having 1/3 (1,400) of my daily calories within three hours after workout, I quickly shot up almost 15 pounds in a month and a half while only gaining an inch around my waiste.
    - Get about 1.5 g of protein/lb of lean body weight/day
    - Take at least 40-50 g of whey protein immediately post-workout
    - Take 5 g of creatine monohydrate pre/post-workout
    - Take a daily multivitamin
    - Get at least 8 hours of quality sleep
    - Take 2 or 3 days/week off. Rest allows growth.
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  4. #4
    Banned whitedevil74's Avatar
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    I think we may be on the verge of something here. Did the K-1 guy take any supplements that you know of?
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  5. #5
    Strength/Condition Coach jdiritto's Avatar
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    some guy I graduated with that I just ran into at the gym Ive been lifting at over the summer is totally huge and ripped... I put him at problaly 250ish and 10% bf..

    he was in the marines and has been doing that since I last saw him in HS, and he said he doesnt take any supplements at all..not even a multi or protein shakes...

    he just eats steak everyday after he lifts and he runs 3mi every morning.
    he listed off more food but I dont really remember it..i was more or less shocked that this 25 year old guy could afford to eat steak everyday..

    he makes wish i would of joined the marines ...
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  6. #6
    Registered User MrPWOShake's Avatar
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    Well, here is my theory.
    Everyone knows that the PWO shake or meal is the most important.
    So why stop there?
    I say starting with the PWO shake or meal. keep it going every hour until bed, then taper off during the next day or 2 until back to maintenance by day 4, the next HIT workout day.
    This would only work with HIT, not volume training, because only HIT allows 3-4 days off between workouts.
    Thus, your giving more (above maintenance) food to the muscles when they need it and less (maintenance) when they dont.

    There was an article I read somewhere back in 1997 that was way over my head, which talked about triggering anabolic responses based on diet.
    It was way over my head, but I think it was similar to what I am doing.
    It had mentioned "cells" in the muscles that are limited in size no matter what, unless an anabolic response is triggered, i.e. steroid or thru diet.

    The increased influx of food in a short period of time (24-48hrs) post workout, forces theses cells to expand, but while expanded they MUST BE FED.
    Then it said something about, by the time the body decides it doesnt need this food, and gets ready to store as fat, you cut your calories back down to maintenance to keep that from happening.

    Not sure if I am stating this exactly, but I think I am close. The article was so complicated it just rolled my eyes back then.

    But the theory in the article was increasing calories then cutting them at just the right time, before the excess was stored as fat and/or the muscle canabalized into fat.

    We will see what happens, come this Friday.
    If all goes as planned, i should weigh in next Saturday morning at least at 225-230lbs.

    I never tried or experimented with this, because I always did volume training, which for a non-steroid user is too catabolic, you never have enough time to grow or recover.
    We know growth occurs outside the gym, not in it, so if you workout everyday as a natural, then growth is very very slow if at all.
    You are only allowing less than 24 hours to grow.

    Thats why HIT interesting to me...I want growth!
    4 days is a reasonable amount of time for growth.
    So I use 2 of those days to force feed my newly torn muscles to grow and allow 4 days for them to feed and grow and rest.
    But Mentzer never talked much about nutrition...so I think my theory or my bastardized version fo the diet I read about in 97, fits perfectly in with HIT.

    So basically I have done HIT for 6-7 weeks already.
    BUT, now for the past week and a half since talking to my cousin (see my conversation with a 300lb monster thread), I took what he does but to a much higher level.

    Below is my HIT training, it may seem like I am slacking to someone who never did or understands HIT, but believe me, once you do it and do it right, you will never want to do volume training again.
    Doing a number of reps merely for the sake of hitting th emagic number of 8 or 10 reps is pure BS...
    You must lift heavy to failure...and you cannot do that with volume training...its over training even if you try to do volume training to failure unless your on steroids.
    Remember the whole purpose for HIT is to allow recovery for naturals without steroids..only steroid users benefit from volume training.

    HIT is not for everybody....and you need a spotter to do it 100% right.
    Because the last 3 reps you squeeze out will either kill you. make you puke, pass out, scream at the top of your lungs, or make your eyes bug out.

    Here is what has made me stop losing weight, and made me gain weight size, without much BF added at all:

    Tuesday Arms and Shoulders:
    Warm up:
    1 set lateral raises with light weight.
    ___
    1 set lateral raises with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    1 set bent over later raises with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps

    Palms Up Pulldowns (contract with biceps not lats) with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    Warm up:
    1 set of close grip bench with light weight
    ___
    1 set of Tricep pushdowns with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    1 set of close grip bench press with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps

    Wed, Thurs, Fri = Rest

    Saturday = Chest and Back
    Warm Up:
    1 set of DB press with light weight
    __________
    1 set of DB flys with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    1 set of DB press with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps

    Warm Up:
    Palms Up Pull Down (use lats not biceps) with light weight
    ____________
    1 set of Straight arm pull down with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    1 set of Palms Up Pull down with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps
    1 set of Shoulder shrugs with enough weight to force failure within 6-10 reps

    Sunday, Monday, Tuesday = Rest

    POST WORKOUT for each workout day = 5:00pm
    PWO Shake immediately following workout= 5:45pm
    Steak with pasta and spinach =6:45
    Protien Shake = w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 7:45pm
    Protein Shake with NO CARBS, w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 8:45pm
    BED = 9:00pm

    1st day of rest:
    5:00am Breakfast - 1 bowl of oatmeal, bananna, 2 scoopts protien (60g)
    8:00am Snack = 2 egg tacos
    11:00 Lunch = Steak or beef with pasta and spinach
    2:00pm Snack = Shake
    5:00PM Dinner = Steak or beef with rice or pasta

    2nd day of rest:
    5:00am Breakfast - 1 bowl of oatmeal, bananna, 2 scoopts protien (60g)
    8:00am Snack = 2 egg tacos
    11:00 Lunch = Steak or beef with pasta and spinach
    2:00pm Snack = Shake
    5:00PM Dinner = Steak or beef with rice or pasta
    Protein Shake with NO CARBS, w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 8:00pm
    Bed = 9pm

    3nd day of rest:
    (Remove bananna, 1 scoop of protein, and 1 spoon of peanut butter, and switch from beef to chicken, from pasta to rice, add spinach)

    5:00am Breakfast - 1 bowl of oatmeal, 1 scoop protien (60g)
    8:00am Snack = 2 egg tacos
    11:00 Lunch = Chicken with rice and spinach
    2:00pm Snack = Shake
    5:00PM Dinner = Chicken with rice and spinach
    Protein Shake with NO CARBS, w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 8:00pm
    bed = 9pm

    4th day is workout day!!!:
    5:00am Breakfast - 1 bowl of oatmeal, 1 scoop protien (60g)
    8:00am Snack = 2 egg tacos
    11:00 Lunch = Chicken with rice and spinach
    2:00pm Snack = Shake
    PWO Shake immediately following workout= 5:45pm
    Steak with pasta and spinach =6:45
    Protien Shake = w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 7:45pm
    Protein Shake with NO CARBS, w/ a spoon of "natural" peanut butter = 8:45pm
    BED = 9:00pm

    Adjust to suit your tastes, but keep the idea that beef and pasta on days 1 and 2, chicken and rice and spinach on days 3 and 4.
    And make sure PWO is close to what I have with the extras thrown in as well as frequency.

    Some notes:
    I use Palms Up pulldowns for my biceps because as Mentzer states it works 2 axis of the bicep instead of 1 like curls.
    Also, it takes the stress off the elbow joint and places it purely on the muscle.
    Its very rewarding when done right.
    It takes practice to do this with your biceps and not your lats.
    Conversely, when using this same exercise for lats you must make sure you do the reverse, i.e. pull withyour lats and not your biceps.

    Also, I left out legs...sorry...
    I do legs different then most, 1 set Squats, and that were pre-exhausted with leg extentions.

    What do you think?
    Time should tell, if this past week is any indicator.
    Last edited by MrPWOShake; 08-13-2005 at 09:16 AM.
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  7. #7
    Strength/Condition Coach jdiritto's Avatar
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    almost sounds like its something similiar to carb cycling...
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  8. #8
    Bubble Burster Nathan1's Avatar
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    kind of aiming at what you probably don't want attention to, but you sound like a damn slacker. why all the time off right after you start making progress/good gains? consistency is one of the main things in BB. get that down, and of course the eating, and you're set. so what's the big deal here? sounds pretty obvious.
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  9. #9
    Registered User MrPWOShake's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nathan1
    kind of aiming at what you probably don't want attention to, but you sound like a damn slacker. why all the time off right after you start making progress/good gains? consistency is one of the main things in BB. get that down, and of course the eating, and you're set. so what's the big deal here? sounds pretty obvious.
    Nathan you dont know enough about HIT to make that statement...
    Not slacking...read a book about HIT...this is a typical HIT routine, it will tax you so bad, that you need 3 full days to recover minimum.

    HIT = Lifting heavy to failure is torture but instills growth.

    When you do your warm up sets and see how they compare to the heavy sets to failure, you then begin to realize the difference between volumne training and HIT.

    With volume training hahahaha you dont need the time to recover.
    If you do HIT correctly, you cannot physically make it back into the gym for 2 days, and even though you might be ready on day 3....DONT!

    The first time you do HIT, you FEEL its the volume trainers that were slacking.

    Sure with volume training you aim for a magic number ex. 6-8 or 10 and then stop...if you do try to go to failure well then even if you do, its not close to your potential or the benefit because you can never match the amount of wieght you lift, the form, and the pump with volume to HIT.
    Even if you think hey "it feels good, I got a good pump and burn" it doesnt matter unless your on roids.
    If your not, then you just overtrained, and you did not approach failure to the degree you would with HIT, and even if you did your still overtraining.

    When TRULY training to failure, i.e. goal of 6-10, but that last 6 to 10th rep must be to failure, the 6-10th rep must be one of the last 3 reps you had to almost kill yourself to do.

    If I can do 6-10 reps without squeeezing out the last 3 as a near death experience then I have to add weight.
    Just getting agood pump is not enough...train heavy to failure and allow time to recover.

    I cannot explain it any more simple.

    Eat big...
    Lift big to failure...
    Allow time for growth which ALL agree ONLY occurrs outside the gym.
    The more food, the more weight, the more recovery = more growth.

    If your doing fine with volume then great...but...imagine just how much extra you can gain by eating right, lifting right, and recovering right.
    Last edited by MrPWOShake; 08-13-2005 at 09:24 AM.
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  10. #10
    Banned M(0)NSTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nathan1
    kind of aiming at what you probably don't want attention to, but you sound like a damn slacker. why all the time off right after you start making progress/good gains? consistency is one of the main things in BB. get that down, and of course the eating, and you're set. so what's the big deal here? sounds pretty obvious.
    Actaully...

    It's changing things up and keeping it fresh that's important.

    I never brought this up in the past, becasue it helped more with strength than it did for size, but that's becasue I was doing this was I was 17, kinda hard to gain anything at that age. Anyway, if I got to a plateu ans stayed there for more than 3 weeks, I would stop working out for a full month. I would still go through the motions on the lifts, but I would be using EXTREMELY light weight, like girl weight. After the month was up, I would go back into the gym and destroy myself. Almost as if I was starting from day #1, but since it was only a month off heavy weight, and I was still giving my muscles a SLIGHT workout, after about a week I would bust through my plateu. Again, I'm not saying this is going to work for others, but it worked for me.

    Also...I don't care what anyone says, that BSN stack is the ****. It's expensive, but it's still the ****.

    If you can eat that much, then go or it. I personally only eat complex cabs ocne a day (morning), and opt for simple carbs the rest of the day. I'm supposed to be getting in 6 meals a day, but when I can't, I make sure one of the meals I eat is RIGHT before I crawl into bed. I'll tell you what...I'm not gaining any fat from it.
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    Banned M(0)NSTER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrPWOShake
    Nathan you dont know enough about HIT to make that statement...
    Not slacking...read a book about HIT...this is a typical HIT routine, it will tax you so bad, that you need 3 full days to recover minimum.

    HIT = Lifting heavy to failure is torture but instills growth.

    When you do your warm up sets and see how they compare to the heavy sets to failure, you then begin to realize the difference between volumne training and HIT.

    With volume training hahahaha you dont need the time to recover.
    If you do HIT correctly, you cannot physically make it back into the gym for 2 days, and even though you might be ready on day 3....DONT!

    The first time you do HIT, you FEEL its the volume trainers that were slacking.

    Sure with volume training you aim for a magic number ex. 6-8 or 10 and then stop...if you do try to go to failure well then even if you do, its not close to your potential or the benefit because you can never match the amount of wieght you lift, the form, and the pump with volume to HIT.
    Even if you think hey "it feels good, I got a good pump and burn" it doesnt matter unless your on roids.
    If your not, then you just overtrained, and you did not approach failure to the degree you would with HIT, and even if you did your still overtraining.

    When TRULY training to failure, i.e. goal of 6-10, but that last 6 to 10th rep must be to failure, the 6-10th rep must be one of the last 3 reps you had to almost kill yourself to do.

    If I can do 6-10 reps without squeeezing out the last 3 as a near death experience then I have to add weight.
    Just getting agood pump is not enough...train heavy to failure and allow time to recover.

    I cannot explain it any more simple.

    Eat big...
    Lift big to failure...
    Allow time for growth which ALL agree ONLY occurrs outside the gym.
    The more food, the more weight, the more recovery = more growth.

    If your doing fine with volume then great...but...imagine just how much extra you can gain by eating right, lifting right, and recovering right.


    Good thing I really only have to do this kinda lifting for legs
    I literally can not walk after a HIT leg workout.

    Too bad I can't just be a gym bum and mooch off my GF for the next 5 yrs
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  12. #12
    Banned whitedevil74's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nathan1
    kind of aiming at what you probably don't want attention to, but you sound like a damn slacker. why all the time off right after you start making progress/good gains? consistency is one of the main things in BB. get that down, and of course the eating, and you're set. so what's the big deal here? sounds pretty obvious.

    This theory has been around for a long time with Mike Mentzer being only one of several proponents of this method of training. To say that this is slacking off is just an uninformed assertion. The theory goes that only a couple of hard training a week are needed to instill proper muscle growth as long as that training is done with the utmost intensity. Casey Viator was one of the biggest, strongest, and most ripped bodybuilders from the 70's and he used this training method. Arnold tried it but supposedly the training was too intense for him. Viator also submitted himself to several drug test to prove that his training method was 100% natural.

    It is thought that any more training than this a week is too much and actually hinders progress. Read through some of the books and then claim it is slacking. This debate has been going on since the 70's so I doubt we will resolve it here.
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    Registered User jsg2020's Avatar
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    Along these same lines...I was on a Low Carb diet years ago for about 3 months. I couldn't take it anymore, so after reading a book about modified Low Carb Diet, I decided to try that. This book claimed that you could eat as much as you want within one hour, if you ate no carb all day. Well, I was all for that, so after I worked out I would head to the Supermarket, buy a big steak, a bag of tater tots and a 1/2 gallon of Ice Cream and go nuts. I was bigger and stronger than ever. I also didn't really put on much bodyfat, although I probably went up 20+ lbs. I chalked it up to "rebounding" after the low carb diet...But now, I think it was the massive calorie intake post workout.

    I think I will try a "modified" version (no ice cream!) and do the PWO shake immediately, one hour later and then a big dinner...
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    Originally Posted by littlechris
    My girlfriend's roommate was dating some K-1 guy who is 5'10" and weighed 230 lbs. Completely ripped. Looked like he was ready for a bb competition everyday. He told me that I was eating a good 1,700 calories a day less than I should've.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's the post-workout food in your case, like it was in mine. When I started having 1/3 (1,400) of my daily calories within three hours after workout, I quickly shot up almost 15 pounds in a month and a half while only gaining an inch around my waiste.

    I am probably guilty of not consuming enough carbs and protein both before and after my workouts (or lifting sessions at least)

    The thing is you gained 15 lbs and added an inch to your wasit, so that means you probably gained 4-6 lbs of fat then right?

    regardless 9-11 lbs of lbm in 6 weeks is impressive.
    "The biggest risk in life is not taking one"

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    "Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing"
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    This is referred to as the 'Anabolic Window' by MAX-OT training protocals and is acknowledged across the bbing world for its effectiveness. General rule is consume 1/3rd of a days calories in 3 hours post workout.

    Hurray for 120g protein shakes with oats, subs, and then more protein shake!
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    Smile

    Bottom Line...

    If it works for you...do it.

    It's common lnowledge that nutrition and rest are what build the muscle after it has been torn down. It appears that MRPWO has found the right combination of lifting/nutrition/rest for optimal muscle growth according fro his body.

    Does this mean that it will work for everyone? No, not necessarily. But, it works for him, so it's not fair to call him lazy or misinformed or whatever.

    The best way to progress IMO is through experimentation.

    I personally feel like cycling (diet AND exercise) is great as far as seeing results. Our bodies adapt so change can be good.

    For instance, someone on a cutting diet might throw in a small bulk cycle every couple of months to reset the body's setpoint. I like to cycle my workouts every week. I don't cycle exercises. I cycle intensity and rep ranges.

    Week1: 8-12 reps, 2 min rest btwn sets
    Week2: 4-7 reps, 2 min rest
    Week3: 8-12 reps, 90 sec rest
    Week4: 4-7 reps, 90 sec rest
    start over (If my body "feels up to it, I might go another week at 60 sec rest)

    Anyway...just some of my thoughts.
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  17. #17
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    The anabolic window is key...
    Shove as much protein and carbs into it while your muscles are screaming for it.
    I use the 5-10g of dextrose for the PWO insulin spike, other than at that point my sugar intake is extremely low.
    Lift Hard, Lift Heavy, to Failure or Go Home.
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    Nutrition Breakdown (P/Carb/F/Cal) = (307/225/53/2270)
    08/03/05 = 221.5 @14.8% BF
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