Pros- Do you approve of Jay's comments?

[FendersRule]

I was watching a video on youtube, about Jay talking about his shoulder workouts.

Interestingly enough, he said that he never powercleans, deadlifts, etc.

What do you pro's think about that? I'm starting to second guess me spending 1 day a week on this stuff, when I could just be working on other core exercises.

Jay said something like "i'd rather be on a bench, or at a rack working on the isolated groups, than straining them all, and effecting my performance of these groups the next day."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vptnIuCoYC0

Do we even need to do deadlifts, power cleans, etc? This guy doesn't do them, and he's a tank!

[Pro Bob Chick]

Agreed 100%

[warbird00]

Bodybuilders dont do floor cleans....

[ElMariachi]

Ben White said something to the same extent. He's a newer pro, but he said that he does not deadlift/squat do to the major toll it takes on the body over the years. He just gets really creative and attacks his back and legs with a whole vast variety of exercises. Then again, guys like that usually have outstanding genetics in the first place, but I do agree that it should not be an "everything or nothing" proposal. If squatting/deadlifting works for you, do it, if not, try some other exercises, there's only like a thousand to choose from.

[Daniel-James]

No need for a BB to do cleans. Deads are good though IF your lower back is cool with it. However there is no need to do full deads. Look at Dorian's back and he only did partials.

[Duckenheimer]

There's a difference with the kind of training you build your base of size with and the 4-6 day a week routines pros require.

Power Cleans are awesome for building mass but they interfere with the training required for the likes of Jay, as he explains himself.

I'm pretty sure he deadlifts though...

Can't think of one of the best backs in the sport owned by someone who doesn't.

[jules_d1]

Somone once told me that you need to do the big lifts to get your base mass and then move away from them and use other exercises to to refine it.


not sure about that though

[FendersRule]

hmmmmm. I usually do these exercises the first day of the weak to kinda "break" my body into it week per week. (6 days a week gym schedule).

I really couldn't tell you if it's doing anything for me or not. Something got me huge in only a 1.5 months of working out. I think its "muscle" memory from last year, but this year is the year I actually started doing those "body" exercises on a weekly basis.

Yay, Bob replied. You rule.

Bob- on your Fitshow Chest/Back DVD, when you and whatshisface where doing chin ups, I noticed you started on the small grips first, and then moved into wide grips. Wouldn't it be better to start with those Wide grips first?

One more Q- Have you ever heard of a bodybuilder competing with a separated shoulder (previous injury). My Shoulder has obviously healed, and is stronger than before, but it looks a little "different", and could be a problem competing.

[ElMariachi]

There's a difference with the kind of training you build your base of size with and the 4-6 day a week routines pros require.

Power Cleans are awesome for building mass but they interfere with the training required for the likes of Jay, as he explains himself.
I'm pretty sure he deadlifts though...

Can't think of one of the best backs in the sport owned by someone who doesn't.[[/b]

Check out the photos of Ben White's back in this month's Muscular Development and get back to me.

[brick_outhouse]

ive never seen kevin leverone doing squats or deads

[Duckenheimer]

Check out the photos of Ben White's back in this month's Muscular Development and get back to me.

Mmm hmm. I have it.

Will Harris too.

I just got owned

But deadlifts are definitely great for many people.

ive never seen kevin leverone doing squats or deads

He said he did squats.

That said, his back and legs weren't by any means the best in the sport.

[Wilde]

Question is if you found a pair of twins, both having same genetics and got 1 of them to use isolation back/chest/leg machines and got the other one to do deadlifts/bent over rows/squats/heavy bench press would they both look the same after a couple years? I think that answer would be no.

[brick_outhouse]

the problem with deadlifts they stuff up your training week.

put them in on back day and your training legs twice a week.

put them on leg day and your training back twice a week.

most naturals cant recover well enough to train a muscle 2x a week

[jules_d1]

I think we must remember most of the top pros are usuallyblessed with genetics and have fantastic diets and other "enhancements" and hard work with any exercises will greatley benefit them

[Duckenheimer]

the problem with deadlifts they stuff up your training week.

put them in on back day and your training legs twice a week.

put them on leg day and your training back twice a week.

most naturals cant recover well enough to train a muscle 2x a week

Anyone who can gain training 3 days a week proves this wrong (due to unavoidable overlap between many bodyparts).

Of course, some extreme hardgainers can't do it.

But MANY naturals who aren't genetically gifted work bodyparts 2x a week or even more frequently. There has to be decreases in either volume or intensity, or both, for this to be effective long term, but it works.

[FendersRule]

HUHHH!!! That's a load of crap. I train every muscle twice a week.

Day 1- PowerCleans, Deadlifts, Full Body Exercises.
Day 2- Chest, Triceps
Day 3- Biceps, Lats, Calves
Day 4- Legs
Day 5- Chest, Triceps
Day 6- Bicep day, aux exersizes
Day 7- off
Day 8- Begin again

That's my schedule for the past 2 months, and I've gained a **** load of size. I also run a half mile to the gym, and a half mile back. I don't think what Im doing would be possible without using Creatine or NO2 products. They make or break my performance.

My body is starting to get fatigued though. I have enough energy to workout, but I get more tired easily. I need to take 2 days off in a row, but I'm friggin addicted to the gym. I spend about 13 hours a week in the gym.

As long as I see results, I don't agree with your "Naturals can't workout the same muscle twice a week". That's not true. Just look at me...only 1.5 months of work.

I might move away from the "powerlift" day after a few months when I get a good base.

[DiamondDelts]

Squats and deads are so overated on here. I know many big guys who don't screw with either one and still have great builds. Just another bb.com myth that you need to both for gains.

[brick_outhouse]

HUHHH!!! That's a load of crap. I train every muscle twice a week.

Day 1- PowerCleans, Deadlifts, Full Body Exercises.
Day 2- Chest, Triceps
Day 3- Biceps, Lats, Calves
Day 4- Legs
Day 5- Chest, Triceps
Day 6- Bicep day, aux exersizes
Day 7- off
Day 8- Begin again

That's my schedule for the past 2 months, and I've gained a **** load of size. I also run a half mile to the gym, and a half mile back. I don't think what Im doing would be possible without using Creatine or NO2 products. They make or break my performance.

My body is starting to get fatigued though. I have enough energy to workout, but I get more tired easily. I need to take 2 days off in a row, but I'm friggin addicted to the gym. I spend about 13 hours a week in the gym.

As long as I see results, I don't agree with your "Naturals can't workout the same muscle twice a week". That's not true. Just look at me...only 1.5 months of work.

I might move away from the "powerlift" day after a few months when I get a good base.

yeah you have just started so your body will gain easily

you could also have great genetics

i have really low testosterone levels so i cant recover very well

[Burnricers]

I think we must remember most of the top pros are usuallyblessed with genetics and have fantastic diets and other "enhancements" and hard work with any exercises will greatley benefit them

Agreed, there is a BIG difference between the pro body builder and his lift schedule, diet and especially supplement routine and that of the average person who is serious about improving their body and overall health. I don't have the perfect diet or exercise routine however in a matter of a few months I have lose about 20lbs of fat and gained about 45lbs on my max bench over a 2 year break of not lifting more than my fatass arms.

HUHHH!!! That's a load of crap. I train every muscle twice a week.

Day 1- PowerCleans, Deadlifts, Full Body Exercises.
Day 2- Chest, Triceps
Day 3- Biceps, Lats, Calves
Day 4- Legs
Day 5- Chest, Triceps
Day 6- Bicep day, aux exersizes
Day 7- off
Day 8- Begin again

That's my schedule for the past 2 months, and I've gained a **** load of size. I also run a half mile to the gym, and a half mile back. I don't think what Im doing would be possible without using Creatine or NO2 products. They make or break my performance.

My body is starting to get fatigued though. I have enough energy to workout, but I get more tired easily. I need to take 2 days off in a row, but I'm friggin addicted to the gym. I spend about 13 hours a week in the gym.

As long as I see results, I don't agree with your "Naturals can't workout the same muscle twice a week". That's not true. Just look at me...only 1.5 months of work.

I might move away from the "powerlift" day after a few months when I get a good base.

You will see results almost indefinitely, however the extent of those results will slim more and more as the months go on. You can't train the same muscle twice a week and gain huge amounts every week for prolonged periods of time, that is a proven fact and if you think otherwise then you shouldn't be posting advice to other people on this site.

[Duckenheimer]

You will see results almost indefinitely, however the extent of those results will slim more and more as the months go on. You can't train the same muscle twice a week and gain huge amounts every week for prolonged periods of time, that is a proven fact and if you think otherwise then you shouldn't be posting advice to other people on this site.

You can't gain huge amounts every week for prolonged periods of time after newb gains, however you train.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say...

[FendersRule]

One other thing I've been seeing after watching Bob lift, and other body builders, is no one seems to use the 5 x 5 schedule.

Bob seems to do the 3 x 10 or 3 x 8. I've been doing a 4 x 8 or 5 x 8. I think keeping the reps "on the higher side" is also a key to my size gaining. Before I would stick to the 5 x 5 with everything I did, and it just "wasn't enough". My body adapted, it was really piss poor. Alot of size, believe it or not, came from Bob's DVD. I lift a way different now than before. Now, I actually feel for the muscle, and really concentrate on form. It's not about how much you bench, but how much you look like you can! Agreed 100%

I've been doing the Pyramid cycle on benches. A lot of times, I just work until Failure. Sorry, this isn't about me, but if any of you have tips, let me have them.

[Burnricers]

You can't gain huge amounts every week for prolonged periods of time after newb gains, however you train.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say...

Only way to make those kinds of gains are to stay on prolonged cycles(even though it's not technically a cycle) of test. You can train muscles twice as week as much as you like, but unless your on test or another type of roids you won't continue to gain at your full potential. Is that clear enough for you??

[FendersRule]

BurnRicers- You are preaching the obvious. I too, don't know what your trying to say.

It's true that gains will start decreasing. But it's absolutely not true that gains will move to a "SLOW" and tedious state, if you know what the hell you are doing. It's all about shock, trying something new, giving your body something it's never seen before. If I were to go into the gym and do the same **** every day, My gains would certainly hit a plateau in a short while. But I change my positioning, seating, angles, weights, reps, exercise, machine, etc to put my body in shock. As long as I'm doing this, gains should keep coming, but yes, not at a super high rate as the first.

There is always ways to keep muscles growing. Saying otherwise is being lazy, and a excuse to only hit the gym 3 times a week.

[Duckenheimer]

Only way to make those kinds of gains are to stay on prolonged cycles(even though it's not technically a cycle) of test. You can train muscles twice as week as much as you like, but unless your on test or another type of roids you won't continue to gain at your full potential. Is that clear enough for you??

Training once a week you won't make those kind of gains either. It's impossible with any kind of training regimen (again, past newb gains).

Not sure what training frequency has to do with the point you're making there.

Some will gain better with higher frequency, some with lower frequency.

[lachy]

Anyone that has ever done deadlifts heavy and properly for a extended period of time, 6months-1 year at least, will know the effect they have on your body,

they have done wonders for my back and I will not be taking them out anytime soon , if some of you want to go and spend more times doing curls and and hyperextensions then good luck to you,

One more thing.. ronnie deadlifts 800+ pounds.. nuff said

[FendersRule]

Training once a week you won't make those kind of gains either. It's impossible with any kind of training regimen (again, past newb gains).

Not sure what training frequency has to do with the point you're making there.

Some will gain better with higher frequency, some with lower frequency.

Agreed. I've also been a advocate for higher frequency. Last year, my arms were lagging. Switched to working them twice a week. Grew 2 inches in 2 months. Same thing with other body parts. Higher Frequency = bigger growth, as long as there is adequate rest for healing.

[Burnricers]

Ok, i'll make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS what I was saying. To make huge gains working the same muscles twice a week you would have to be loading test. I really don't know how else to make that clear? The only reason I know this is because i've seen it first hand. I have never done a cycle myself(yet), but I have however seen the gain AND loss that comes with it. So please, don't question my integrity when it comes to knowing something as simple as this.

[DiamondDelts]

Anyone that has ever done deadlifts heavy and properly for a extended period of time, 6months-1 year at least, will know the effect they have on your body,

they have done wonders for my back and I will not be taking them out anytime soon , if some of you want to go and spend more times doing curls and and hyperextensions then good luck to you,

One more thing.. ronnie deadlifts 800+ pounds.. nuff said

[Duckenheimer]

Ok, i'll make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS what I was saying. To make huge gains working the same muscles twice a week you would have to be loading test. I really don't know how else to make that clear?

Well then you're ****ing wrong.

Unless you mean huge week to week gains, which are impossible with any training regiment (past the newb stage) - in which case I have no idea why you are specifying twice a week training.

Plenty of naturals have made huge (long term) gains working the same muscles twice a week.

[Burnricers]

Well then you're ****ing wrong.

Unless you mean huge week to week gains, which are impossible with any training regiment (past the newb stage).

Plenty of naturals have made huge (long term) gains working the same muscles twice a week.

Then you've ****ing MISUNDERSTOOD me. I never said huge week to week gains. I said HUGE gains in general. Please try to keep up. You don't make the gains i've THOUGHT he meant without what i've previously said, if you think you do then you're delusional and enjoy trying to achieve that.