Knee pain and leg workouts, advice sought...

[Alphonse]

I started working out about 4 months ago following a year layoff. I have weight trained on and off since puberty, most recently for over 2 years straight. I am 27 years old and I never had a problem with my knees until about 4 leg workouts ago.

I have just been getting comfortable squatting heavy again and my weights have been increasing dramaticly, like adding 1-2 reps on my last (heaviest) set almost every workout. Recently with the help of a spotter I went pretty heavy for me, pushing out 5 reps with 300lbs. After the squats I asked my spotter what he thought of my form. Spotter said it looked good but that I go too deep. I have always thought that the deeper the better as far as squats are concerned. (I will go down to just below parallel with my but about 14 inches off the floor.)

After the above workout workout my knees were sore for the first time ever and they have felt funny ever since. The pain has been in my kneecap and has been pretty much non stop in both knees. At first I thought that I could just persevere through this and maybe they would get better, but instead it has been getting worse with each successive workout. Yesterday I did squats again and on my second to last set did 8 reps with 275 and my knees felt pretty bad. I loaded up 325 on the bar to try and go for 2-3 reps but when I did one rep my left kneecap just felt like it was going to shatter or something, so I reracked the weight. This is really fustrating since for the first time in my life I have been enjoying my leg workouts, and especially the squats since I have been making good progress. But yesterday I left the gym fustrated since I felt like I definitely could have gotten 325 for 3 reps if my knee hadn't been giving me these alarm signals.

Today both my knees are really sore, especially my left. It kept me tossing and turning during the night and this morning felt like it could give way when I got out of bed. Now it's feeling better but is still sore.

I know that I should not do squats until I understand what is going on here, but I also don't want my progress to stall. Today I asked some of the guys at my gym what they thought, like if I should start wrapping my knees as I had read here yesterday in response to another thread. But they all recommended against wrapping my knees. One guy whose opinion I respect said I should try doing leg extensions before squats to warm up my knee better and maybe also start doing my leg presses before squats. He also says that it's par for the course since I am no longer a spring chicken! (Is 27 now considered old?)

In case it would help, here is a sample of what my typical leg workout would be, hitting legs about once a week:

Stretch: 2 minutes

Squat:
15 reps bar only (Warm Up)
15 reps 135lbs (Warm Up)
12 reps 225lbs
8 reps 275lbs
3 reps 325lbs

Leg Press:
10 reps 405lbs
8 reps 455lbs
6 reps 505lbs (last 1-2 reps are forced)

Leg Extensions:
10 reps
8 reps

Leg Curls:
10 reps
8 reps
6 reps

Calf Raises:
4 sets of 15

30 minutes Cardio

What do you guys think I should do? Right now I am open to any suggestions, but really don't want to drop squats from my leg workout. I also used to run for my cardio after leg workouts but have been afraid of hurting my knees even more so I have been doing the ellipse instead for the last few weeks.

Regards,
Alphonse

[weakchump]

I had a similar problem. Both of my knees were in terrible pain for a time. First off, get in and visit a good sports doctor. It would be a good idea to take a couple weeks off from working your legs at all. Maybe some light cardio. Also, ice is good.

It may be good to not go below parrallel. Extra force will be applied to your knees the deeper you go.

I ended up taking a month off. I lost some strength, but it has paid dividends. I'm as strong as ever now. The best thing you can do is heal first then lift. Because your knees are something you don't want to mess with.

Also, make sure the transition from going down to pushing the weight up is as smooth as possible. That is where some serious damage can occur.

[Alphonse]

Hey weakchump...
Thanks for the advice. I actually did take a week off and did alot of research during that week. Yesterday I started back and worked legs and did some heavy squats and my knees feel fine today and my legs are actually burnt more than usual! What I learned during my research was very helpful, so here it is for everyone to read:

-Do 2 sets of light to moderate weight leg extensions to warm up the knee joint before squats. (I was going right from my car to the squat rack.)
-Do not "Bounce" the weight at the top of the squat. It looks cool in the mirror to see that bar flop up and down, but kills the knees! (I was doing this)
-Do not lock out your knees at the top of the movement. (I was doing this)
-Push down with your heel (It should not rise off the floor) and outwards your foot as you begin to rise at the bottom of the movement. (Someone on this board posted to "spread the floor" and this works great. It helps to strengthen the knee's support during this part of the movement.)
-Squat with your hips and not your back. (Sometimes I used to feel like my weight was shifting onto my toes and my heels wanted to come up. I had repeat to myself "squat with the hips" during reps to avoid this and it worked.)

By following these tips and paying attention to strict form I got a great, pain free leg workout yesterday. I started out with a moderate weight to try getting my form correct, but actually felt very comfortable and on my last set was only 25lbs behind where I was with bad form (and knee pain!) last week.

Regards,
Alphonse

[MsDenita]

This was so helpful. I'm fairly new to weight training. I started in January and have been in the gym 4-5 X's/week and I never had a problem with soreness or any type of "itis" But For the past 2 weeks after doing two set of squats with bad technique my knees have been giving me problems. And it's not horrible but it's been persistent. This helped so much and hopefully it works for me. Thank you

Hey weakchump...
Thanks for the advice. I actually did take a week off and did alot of research during that week. Yesterday I started back and worked legs and did some heavy squats and my knees feel fine today and my legs are actually burnt more than usual! What I learned during my research was very helpful, so here it is for everyone to read:

-Do 2 sets of light to moderate weight leg extensions to warm up the knee joint before squats. (I was going right from my car to the squat rack.)
-Do not "Bounce" the weight at the top of the squat. It looks cool in the mirror to see that bar flop up and down, but kills the knees! (I was doing this)
-Do not lock out your knees at the top of the movement. (I was doing this)
-Push down with your heel (It should not rise off the floor) and outwards your foot as you begin to rise at the bottom of the movement. (Someone on this board posted to "spread the floor" and this works great. It helps to strengthen the knee's support during this part of the movement.)
-Squat with your hips and not your back. (Sometimes I used to feel like my weight was shifting onto my toes and my heels wanted to come up. I had repeat to myself "squat with the hips" during reps to avoid this and it worked.)

By following these tips and paying attention to strict form I got a great, pain free leg workout yesterday. I started out with a moderate weight to try getting my form correct, but actually felt very comfortable and on my last set was only 25lbs behind where I was with bad form (and knee pain!) last week.

Regards,
Alphonse

[AlanApe]

Stop stop stop stop stop.

What the f@@k!

Alphonse you are getting some seriously bad advice above. If you are having knee problems then it is usually down to bad form or NOT going deep enough.

When you squat you need to make sure that you squat AT LEAST to parallel, but if you can go further then even better. One of the biggest culprits for knee strain is when you squat to ABOVE parallel. When you squat above parallel you put enormous shear stresses through your knees when you stop the descent and start the ascent. This can cause problems further on. When you squat to parallel or below much of the stresses at the point of change from negative to positive are absorbed by the much stronger hips joints, therefore taking away the hazardous stresses the would otherwise be transferred through your knees. There is a reason why Olympic and power lifters squat as deep as they can. These guys squat on a daily basis. They know what they are doing.

So step 1 is to ignore the uneducated individuals (albeit sometimes the majority) who tell you you are squatting too deep. Deep squatting is what you want to do!

Then make sure your stance is comfortable and that there is an imaginary line that runs from your hip joint through your knee joint and ankle joint to your toes - never let this imaginary line become inked (I.e your knees go inwards or outwards from that line) as this puts huge pressure on the knees too. You can have a wi stance or narrow stance, whichever feels better for you. But keep that line intact!

Drop the weight by a few kilos for the next couple of sessions. If your form is right and the knee still hurts, get it checked out.

Ignore those who tell you not to go below parallel. Bad, bad advice.

[AlanApe]

I had a similar problem. Both of my knees were in terrible pain for a time.......

It may be good to not go below parrallel......

Extra force will be applied to your knees the deeper you go.

And just in case I wasn't clear......

Sentence 1 can be explained by sentence 2

Sentence 3 is just completely and utterly wrong.

[k9pit]

I have just been getting comfortable squatting heavy again and my weights have been increasing dramaticly, like adding 1-2 reps on my last (heaviest) set almost every workout.

..........
This is really fustrating since for the first time in my life I have been enjoying my leg workouts, and especially the squats since I have been making good progress. But yesterday I left the gym fustrated since I felt like I definitely could have gotten 325 for 3 reps if my knee hadn't been giving me these alarm signals.

yeah, sometimes you gotta pull back and roll with common sense....it's been a few times where my body told me "look bro, you're about to f*** your s*** up" and my ego said "screw that stop being a p****, i got this" and the result was..........not good, lol.

Three things to consider are that:
1. your connective tissues need to adapt too. it could just be a case of "too much too soon".
2. muscle imbalance (personally, when i first started squatting my VMO in my right leg was extremely weak. this caused me form breakdown and knee issues when i started going heavy. i ended up quitting squats for a while to build my VMOs up with moves that didn't cause knee pain -single leg seated leg press, BB hacks)
3. Form in some way. maybe the way you're driving the weight up. idk.

If you are having knee problems then it is usually down to bad form or NOT going deep enough.

This is true as well. in my case, hitting rock bottom or as close as my flexibilty allows (i'm very flexible) brought about total quad development and my knees feel great.

[gracieallen]

True just keep on take training will get relief with the knee pain at the level of starting most of the people will get similar problem.....

[trojan2k8]

maybe upload a video of yourself squatting? 325 is a fair amount of weight. Are you hitting parallel and pushing your knees outwards?