Why not train back with biceps?

[W8isGR8]

Or chest with triceps, for that matter. I hear people say all the time "don't train biceps on back day because they won't be fresh". Has anyone ever stopped to actually think about this? You muscles don't know how they're bieng worked, so it doesn't relly matter if your biceps are getting hit with pull-ups or barbell curls. The muscle is still contracting under tension, so why not just throw in a couple sets of curls at the end of you back workout to totally blast the muscles. Or am I wrong, do biceps only grow from "biceps exercises"? Nobody has a problem training traps with delts, and those two get worked together all the time. Please feel free to comment either way, but please back your statements up with something other than dogmatic beliefs.

[Vail]

I just changed my routine. But on my previous routine, was was doing back with biceps, and chest with tris.

I dont buy into "they're not fresh" stuff either. You're trying to fatigue the muscle... thats the goal.

[CaseySurf19]

you're trying to overload, not 'fatigue'

i could do 100 reps of dips and 'fatigue' my triceps, but i won't make them stronger or grow.

[Vail]

you're trying to overload, not 'fatigue'

i could do 100 reps of dips and 'fatigue' my triceps, but i won't make them stronger or grow.

Well, if you really want to nitpick, you're not trying to "overload", youre trying to create microtears in your muscles.

[W8isGR8]

you're trying to overload, not 'fatigue'

i could do 100 reps of dips and 'fatigue' my triceps, but i won't make them stronger or grow.

F*cking semantics, quite nit-picking choices of words, you know what he's saying.

[SVTFreak]

I do exactly that, bi's on back and tri's on chest day. My arms have grown 3 1/8" in 18 months, since i began working out.

[$AJ]

you don't have to train any 1 way - almost any well tsrucutred routine, with a good diet, will give excellent results.

[Andalite]

chest and triceps, back and biceps is a good idea, but shoulders and legs isnt.

that why my program flows like this:

Day 1 : Chest & Triceps
Day 2 : Back, Biceps & Abs
Day 3 : Shoulders
Day 4 : Legs & Forearms
Day 5 : Rest
Day 6 : Day 1

shoulders and legs are 2 big muscles so working them on the same day is not a great idea. but if it suit u, u probably know better.

[W8isGR8]

chest and triceps, back and biceps is a good idea, but shoulders and legs isnt.

that why my program flows like this:

Day 1 : Chest & Triceps
Day 2 : Back, Biceps & Abs
Day 3 : Shoulders
Day 4 : Legs & Forearms
Day 5 : Rest
Day 6 : Day 1

shoulders and legs are 2 big muscles so working them on the same day is not a great idea. but if it suit u, u probably know better.

I never said shoulders and legs, I said shoulders and traps

[Serynu]

I've been training the following way...

Chest/bi
legs
off
back/tri
shoulders/traps/abs
off
off

I do this so each body part gets direct and indirect training each week and I've been getting better results this way. I will change it in the future then I will change it again.

[Powerbuilt]

Or chest with triceps, for that matter. I hear people say all the time "don't train biceps on back day because they won't be fresh". Has anyone ever stopped to actually think about this? You muscles don't know how they're bieng worked, so it doesn't relly matter if your biceps are getting hit with pull-ups or barbell curls. The muscle is still contracting under tension, so why not just throw in a couple sets of curls at the end of you back workout to totally blast the muscles. Or am I wrong, do biceps only grow from "biceps exercises"? Nobody has a problem training traps with delts, and those two get worked together all the time. Please feel free to comment either way, but please back your statements up with something other than dogmatic beliefs.

I always seperated back and biceps for a few reasons. First off it makes the biceps worked twice in one week. Secondly it's two different workout types premoting gains in different muscle fibers. Last, I like it like dat!

[W8isGR8]

Do you think a small muscle like biceps needs to be trained twice a week? And by training different fibres, do you do one day of high reps or something?

[$AJ]

Do you think a small muscle like biceps needs to be trained twice a week? And by training different fibres, do you do one day of high reps or something?

'need' to be.......no

[harrisjl]

Do you think a small muscle like biceps needs to be trained twice a week? And by training different fibres, do you do one day of high reps or something?

If you are not training back and bis together and you are working them on separate days you are training bis twice a week. When you train back you are hitting your bis as well there is no getting around that. That is why if your split has you training back and bis on separate days you should put a day or two in between them IMO. Same goes for chest and tris.

4 to 5 exercises on the large group/2 to 3 exercises on the small group...
chest tris
back bis

4 to 5 exercises on each group
chest bis
back tris

opposing muscle groups or push/pull
4 to 5 exercises on each muscle groups
bis tris
back chest - two large muscle groups BRUTAL

Nothing wrong with incorporating any of the above in your split. As said in an earlier post working two large muscle groups can be difficult. You might do more exercises if your more advanced. My point is it is always good to change things up every few months or so......

[Powerbuilt]

Do you think a small muscle like biceps needs to be trained twice a week? And by training different fibers, do you do one day of high reps or something?

Not exactly. You have fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. I was told that back day will hit one set of fibers while on bicep day the other set of fibers are hit. On back day I hit them indirectly whereas on bicep day I hit them directly with more then 50% of the lifts being isolations. I have always had great results sticking to this so I never really researched his theories.

To be honest, this dude that was a contest bodybuilder and he had 20+ inch arms. I started at 12, now I'm at 18.5. It works.

[W8isGR8]

It only works different fibres if your using a different rep range. So if your doing back exercises with 8-12 reps and biceps exercises with 8-12 reps, guess what, same thing.

[W8isGR8]

What I'm trying to get at is that Triceps get beat on chest day, and also on shoulder day(if you use heavy pressing moves), so doing them on their own day would mean training them 3 times a week. Biceps would only be twice, but that still seems like a lot for such a small muscle. Or do they recover quicker because they are smaller? It just seems that if you do heavy presses and back exercises your arms will forced to grow too because they're the weak link. So why even train them seperately?

[Defiant1]

What I'm trying to get at is that Triceps get beat on chest day, and also on shoulder day(if you use heavy pressing moves), so doing them on their own day would mean training them 3 times a week. Biceps would only be twice, but that still seems like a lot for such a small muscle. Or do they recover quicker because they are smaller? It just seems that if you do heavy presses and back exercises your arms will forced to grow too because they're the weak link. So why even train them seperately?

Now THIS isn't funny....wait, yet it is....

A couple of things.

First, biceps SHOULD be trained more than back. Smaller muscles take less resources to train, and recover more quickly. So, if you are doing back with bis, in effect, you are undertraining bis (ditto tris, hams, delts). The "it's bigger so it needs more work" is logical but not correct. Bigger muscles take more resources to train and can actually take LESS work relatively (of course, one has to take into account the relative effect of cumulative training via "incidental" training of the small muscle groups)

The "back takes care of bis" and "chest/shoulders take care of tris" is common thinking gone haywire.

Obviously a certain level of concentration is needed for MAXIMUM growth. If that were not true, than one could just go into the gym and deadlift and be done with it. Obviously, it is not the case (though some seem to be working on it LOL).

What happens to a muscle when it is fatigued, is that the nervous system INHIBITS the neural impulse to that muscle. So, when you go to train bis after back, you are simply unable to hit bis with the same intensity as you would when you train it by itself, not despite, but BECAUSE of the fatigue.

[W8isGR8]

At last, someone with a valid point.

[Dominik]

The main reason why I'd train biceps in a "push" workout is to hit them twice a week. In other words, sometimes training frequency is the key factor in a certain muscle group's development rather than total volume in a given workout, and training them once a week might not be enough for some to see solid gains.

It depends on what you're trying to do and your priorities. For some guys, all they need for biceps is a heavy back session and a few curls to finish them off... and they grow. If that is what works best for them, why argue with that? The only issue with a back/bis split is the intensity drop for the biceps isolation work. When you start a biceps workout fresh or following a push group like chest, shoulders, or triceps, you can isolate them with curling exercises at a higher intensity (heavier load).

In other words, if you were curling 50lbs a side on a barbell over 6-8 sets when they're fresh, following a heavy back routine with a lot of weighted chin-ups and rows you might only be able to barbell curl them with 25-35lbs per side. Some would argue it doesn't matter since they already blasted the smaller muscle for 10+ sets training back. Ditto for chest with triceps. But then others might say that the key to building them is hitting them at high intensity from start to finish twice a week. Some might need 3 biceps sessions. For some more than once a week is overkill. Who knows? You have to experiment.

[W8isGR8]

Say someone had a split where all they did was Squats, Deadlifts, Weighted dips, Weighted pull-ups, and Military press. Don't you think their arms would be forced to grow?

I started this thread because after a couple years of training my arms have refused to grow any more. I managed to grow from 12" to 15" in about two years, but for the last year there has been absolutly zero growth. Not even 1/8th of an inch. Every single bodypart has continued to grow, even calves, but my arms are stuck. I've switched exercises and weights and reps and nothing seems to help. I'm starting to wonder if I've been hitting my arms too much. What should I do?

[cheezefacta]

Oh man, not this subject again....sorry if I repeat points because I dont have time to read the thread because im on my way out.. Everyone seems to think that you shouldnt hit biceps twice a week "because they are small muscles", which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. They ARE small muscles so they WILL be ready for action alot quicker than chest/back/etc for example....to take back and bis and put them on the same day is basically making it so your bicep is being worked ONCE a week. So your saying that taking a muscle that is so small that it can be worked every 2-3 days and only using it once a week is optimal? hahah...

I do exactly that, bi's on back and tri's on chest day. My arms have grown 3 1/8" in 18 months, since i began working out.

While this is true, your gains are based on only using one of the argued routines. Also, alot of size comes with "newbie" gains...hell, I went up about 2 inches almost in about 7-8 months when I first started training. When I started I couldnt do one pullup and then I was hitting tons of pullups with extra weight slapped on in no time, which BLEW up my biceps. 18 months is a decent amount of time working out, but alot of the gains you have recieved so far could have been done by using any type of training routine given the proper diet, form, blah blah blah....

W8...if you think its great to work back/bis together, then by all means stick with it...for me personally, I dont think throwing in some half assed pussy barbell curl using 1/2 the weight I could use if my bi's were fresh at the of a back workout is sufficient..but thats just my opinion.

And once again, I have tried all sorts of routines and to be honest im doing MUCH better off by giving arms a day of their own....you can continue to stick to the old school thought process, but im going to continue doing what works for me...to me, arguing about "logic" or bringing up some bull**** idea about "fibers being hit" NEVER compares to actual experience....the only people that should open their mouths on the subject from here on in are the people who have tried different routines, and not the study freaks who look for an answer to everything online without giving it a test run of their own...

[aqua-beowulf]

Say someone had a split where all they did was Squats, Deadlifts, Weighted dips, Weighted pull-ups, and Military press. Don't you think their arms would be forced to grow?

I started this thread because after a couple years of training my arms have refused to grow any more. I managed to grow from 12" to 15" in about two years, but for the last year there has been absolutly zero growth. Not even 1/8th of an inch. Every single bodypart has continued to grow, even calves, but my arms are stuck. I've switched exercises and weights and reps and nothing seems to help. I'm starting to wonder if I've been hitting my arms too much. What should I do?

Although Defiant and Dominik make excellent points, I don't do any direct arm work, and mine are right at 18". Could I reach 20" if I trained them directly, maybe, I guess, but I just feel like they are getting hammered enough on back and chest days. Maybe that is common thinking gone haywire, as Defiant says, but I say if you're not gaining anything right now, then you owe it to yourself to try something new. I'm not saying you're overtraining, I hate that word, but how do you know your arms may not grow with less stimulation. Bottom line is, like I and many others have said before, mix things up, and find what works best for you.

[W8isGR8]

Oh man, not this subject again....sorry if I repeat points because I dont have time to read the thread because im on my way out.. Everyone seems to think that you shouldnt hit biceps twice a week "because they are a small muscles", which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. They ARE small muscles so they WILL be ready for action alot quicker than chest/back/etc for example....to take back and bis and put them on the same day is basically making it so your bicep is being worked ONCE a week. So your saying that taking a muscle that is so small that it can be worked every 2-3 days and only using it once a week is optimal? hahah...



While this is true, your gains are based on only using one of the argued routines. Also, alot of size comes with "newbie" gains...hell, I went up about 2 inches almost in about 7-8 months when I first started training. When I started I couldnt do one pullup and then I was hitting tons of pullups with extra weight slapped on in no time, which BLEW up my biceps. 18 months is a decent amount of time working out, but alot of the gains you have recieved so far could have been done by using any type of training routine given the proper diet, form, blah blah blah....

W8...if you think its great to work back/bis together, then by all means stick with it...for me personally, I dont think throwing in some half assed pussy barbell curl using 1/2 the weight I could use if my bi's were fresh at the of a back workout is sufficient..but thats just my opinion.

And once again, I have tried all sorts of routines and to be honest im doing MUCH better off by giving arms a day of their own....you can continue to stick to the old school thought process, but im going to continue doing what works for me...to me, arguing about "logic" or bringing up some bull**** idea about "fibers being hit" NEVER compares to actual experience....the only people that should open their mouths on the subject from here on in are the people who have tried different routines, and not the study freaks who look for an answer to everything online without giving it a test run of their own...

God, I hate when people don't actually read what I post. First, I don't train back/bi's together, I do them on their own day. Second, I stated that I have used many routines, so no, my gains aren't based on one routine. Third, BECAUSE I have tried many routines I'm forced to go online and listen to ass-bags like you spout off their high and mighty B.S. instead of actually taking the time to listen to a fellow bobdybuilder and give some decent advice.

[pict]

this kilt wearing ass-bag stays on a push, pull, leg routine most of the time so i think i must be doing chest/tris, and back/bis.
good thing i try not to think to hard, or i'd be to confused to lift. who gives a rats a**. i'm amazed how seriously everyone takes this stuff. i've been lifting since '73 and i've tried literally every training style i've ever read about or heard of. it boils down to making it a habit like brushing your teeth (although this might be a bad analogy for some), keep adding weight to the bar, eat real food, and get a freaking life.
i like to change things up and the order of lifts. maybe work on something i think could improve but really, do any of you guys enjoy lifting? i have to wonder sometimes.

[Dominik]

Okay, feel free to correct me if you don't agree, but I've found you can get some excellent gains from regulating intensity and training certain muscle groups at "maintenance" level for say 6 weeks, and then blasting them again, instead of training everything at high intensity and frequently (in relation to their size) all year round.

So a back/bis split could be useful there, freeing up time for something else that needs isolating, especially if your biceps are coming along fine. And after that "mesocycle" has ended, 6 weeks later, you suddenly blast the biceps twice a week again. This kind of thing can trigger more growth than hammering away at the biceps twice a week all year round. Make sense?

A couple of weeks ago I finished a 6 week routine of back/bis & chest/tris and I'm doing chest/bis, back on its own, and shoulders/tris. No, my biceps didn't deflate! Now I feel fresh and enthusiastic about a different split. This is the kind of approach that motivates me more than grinding away with the same old approach.

[W8isGR8]

this kilt wearing ass-bag stays on a push, pull, leg routine most of the time so i think i must be doing chest/tris, and back/bis.
good thing i try not to think to hard, or i'd be to confused to lift. who gives a rats a**. i'm amazed how seriously everyone takes this stuff. i've been lifting since '73 and i've tried literally every training style i've ever read about or heard of. it boils down to making it a habit like brushing your teeth (although this might be a bad analogy for some), keep adding weight to the bar, eat real food, and get a freaking life.
i like to change things up and the order of lifts. maybe work on something i think could improve but really, do any of you guys enjoy lifting? i have to wonder sometimes.

Okay dick, I mean pict. If we didn't ask questions, there wouldn't be a forum, and people like you would have nothing better to do with their free time than talk down to people like me, so really I'm doing you a favor.

[Defiant1]

God, I hate when people don't actually read what I post. First, I don't train back/bi's together, I do them on their own day. Second, I stated that I have used many routines, so no, my gains aren't based on one routine. Third, BECAUSE I have tried many routines I'm forced to go online and listen to ass-bags like you spout off their high and mighty B.S. instead of actually taking the time to listen to a fellow bobdybuilder and give some decent advice.

Training back/bis together is WRONG!!!

[W8isGR8]

Training back/bis together is WRONG!!!

NO! You're wrong!


I hate bodybuilding and I hate all of you! *crys and runs off like a little girl*

[BernieD]

I don't think there's anything wrong with training them together, but for me it was not maximizing my potential. Why? After heavy back work, my biceps have been worked a lot already and are pumped up to the max. If I do bicep work after that, I'll be able to use less poundage. Now what's the point of that? I'd rather hit them when they're fresh and be able to use more poundage to maximize muscle growth. And like everyone's said, they can handle being hit 2x a week, unlike most other muscles, so it's all good.