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  1. #751
    I love bacon..... Wayne Evans's Avatar
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    Imo...

    Originally Posted by MrMagic123 View Post
    Another problem is that I never ever seem to finish a track. I will work on a certain part , melody, intro etc and then start up a new project. I believe this also has to do with my lack of knowledge about music. I have no idea where to start with EQ'in and such like. I really just feel like I am in a big hole and need some help!
    IMO....and I'll be blunt....

    If you are as passionate as you state I'd suggest the following.
    Learn the language of music...study it, surround yourself with those that know more than yourself.
    Pick an instrument and play a little every day.
    Don't believe music theory will hold you back.
    (Same pretty much applies to learning about recording processes, signal processing, etc).

    Finishing a song requires disciplined understanding of lyrical/musical continuity and if one is lucky their songs may have some appeal beyond one's personal orbit.

    Never think 'I'm good'....'my songs are brilliant'.....the listeners of your work will determine that.
    There's a boatload of creative music tools these days that makes it easy for one to delve into composing or writing.
    But, just because one composes something that doesn't mean it's a masterpiece or has any merit to the masses.
    Writing/composing well is a developed skill.

    Coming from some experience that's my take on it.

    Hope that helps....carry on....
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  2. #752
    Registered User MrMagic123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wayne Evans View Post
    IMO....and I'll be blunt....

    If you are as passionate as you state I'd suggest the following.
    Learn the language of music...study it, surround yourself with those that know more than yourself.
    Pick an instrument and play a little every day.
    Don't believe music theory will hold you back.
    (Same pretty much applies to learning about recording processes, signal processing, etc).

    Finishing a song requires disciplined understanding of lyrical/musical continuity and if one is lucky their songs may have some appeal beyond one's personal orbit.

    Never think 'I'm good'....'my songs are brilliant'.....the listeners of your work will determine that.
    There's a boatload of creative music tools these days that makes it easy for one to delve into composing or writing.
    But, just because one composes something that doesn't mean it's a masterpiece or has any merit to the masses.
    Writing/composing well is a developed skill.

    Coming from some experience that's my take on it.

    Hope that helps....carry on....
    Thank you for your reply man, appreciated.
    I want to start right from the beginning, learn the very basic stuff first and then move on from there.
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  3. #753
    I love bacon..... Wayne Evans's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrMagic123 View Post
    Thank you for your reply man, appreciated.
    I want to start right from the beginning, learn the very basic stuff first and then move on from there.
    Your welcome....

    Anything worth doing in life requires sacrifice.
    In your case that 'sacrifice' is dedication, discipline and time.....there are no short cuts for these criteria.
    Learn the language of music so you are able to communicate effectively with those that have 'more knowledge'.

    Know your creative priority, choose a game plan and stay on that path.
    I cannot emphasize enough to surround yourself with those having more knowledge than yourself along with real world experience.

    Should you begin to write or compose and ask for critiques/feedback you'd best have the skin of a snow tire.
    I rarely (to never) offer critiques anymore because people don't want honest assessments of their efforts.

    I'll keep an eye on this thread is case I can offer more 'bluntness' for your creative music quest.

    Carry on....good luck.
    Last edited by Wayne Evans; 02-17-2014 at 10:05 AM.
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  4. #754
    Registered User MrMagic123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wayne Evans View Post
    Your welcome....

    Anything worth doing in life requires sacrifice.
    In your case that 'sacrifice' is dedication, discipline and time.....there are no short cuts for these criteria.
    Learn the language of music so you are able to communicate effectively with those that have 'more knowledge'.

    Know your creative priority, choose a game plan and stay on that path.
    I cannot emphasize enough to surround yourself with those having more knowledge than yourself along with real world experience.

    Should you begin to write or compose and ask for critiques/feedback you'd best have the skin of a snow tire.
    I rarely (to never) offer critiques anymore because people don't want honest assessments of their efforts.

    I'll keep an eye on this thread is case I can offer more 'bluntness' for your creative music quest.

    Carry on....
    True, anything worth doing does require sacrifice! And for music I am willing to sacrifice a lot.

    I am not looking for short cuts, I understand that it will take time for me to A, Learn everything I need to know about music and B, start producing songs of a high quality. It is all part of the journey I really want to take!
    Yeah, I am looking to seriously 'wise up' in terms of my musical knowledge.

    I am looking into the possibility of taking on some courses to help gain some knowledge! That way I could be around people with knowledge much greater than I, and I could look to learn a lot from them.

    And I believe it is vital that I get feedback on my work. I don't care if it is negative or positive, I need to know what others truly think of my work. There is no point in not being honest, I am in this to learn and progress so I need to be getting feedback!
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  5. #755
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    Hey brahs, what's a good textbook w/ exercises that I could use to GRIND some music theory into my head? My preference is the physical stuff because I already spend most of my day staring at a screen.

    Thanks!
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  6. #756
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    I've been listening to dance music from rave to grime to dubstep and now future garage and i still cant make dance music :/
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  7. #757
    This is what the fox says SocialFox's Avatar
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    So glad to have found this thread! It's got some very useful info. I have a question about the various modes (Ionian, Mixolydian, etc.) - can someone give me a quick run-down on how to apply them to composing? I know what they are, but I don't understand how to use them to write better music. I know about some basic stuff like chords I, IV, and V being frequently used in any given song, but I'm trying to branch out from there and it's proven to be rather difficult so far.
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  8. #758
    Spicy Big Dad AfroPope's Avatar
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    any of you brahs know about playing by ear? I can read music fine but I've got an audition for a band coming up and I'm trying to learn the songs by ear. It's... tricky, to say the least.

    > pls respond
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  9. #759
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    Originally Posted by SocialFox View Post
    So glad to have found this thread! It's got some very useful info. I have a question about the various modes (Ionian, Mixolydian, etc.) - can someone give me a quick run-down on how to apply them to composing? I know what they are, but I don't understand how to use them to write better music. I know about some basic stuff like chords I, IV, and V being frequently used in any given song, but I'm trying to branch out from there and it's proven to be rather difficult so far.
    Learn how to apply different modes to the same key. C Lydian, C Dorian, ect.

    example:

    We'll start with the key of C since it is the easiest way of working out sharps and flats. Let's compare a C Ionian mode to a C Dorian. We already know the Ionian since it is just the major scale. We need to find the C Dorian mode. Dorian means we'll be using the second scale degree. So what major scale has C for its second? Bb.

    Bb major: Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

    So now we start on C:

    C Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C

    Now let's compare this to the Ionian.

    C Ionian: C D E F G A B C

    C Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C

    So if we convert these to numbers:

    Ionian: R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R

    Dorian: R 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 R

    So this is the formula for a Dorian mode. This formula can be used to find the Dorian modes of ALL keys.

    X Dorian: R 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 R

    E Dorian: E F# G A B C# D E

    And it works the same when you compare the rest of the modes to the Ionian.

    C Ionian: C D E F G A B C

    C Phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
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  10. #760
    I love bacon..... Wayne Evans's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AfroPope View Post
    playing by ear? I can read music fine but I've got an audition for a band coming up and I'm trying to learn the songs by ear. It's... tricky, to say the least.
    > pls respond
    IMO....
    Playing by ear requires one to have some sense of relative pitch.
    If one doesn't....then one has to do some pitch/interval ear training.
    There are sites on the web for this.

    Say you've achieved some relative pitch/interval training success.
    Then, listen to the song your trying to learn and find the 'tonic' of the key.
    For example...listen to the song and find the common note that sounds in key (guitar, keys, etc) as the song is playing.
    For me it would be finding that common note on the low E string on guitar.
    Maybe others will offer different perspectives.

    Of course, to learn the song after finding the 'key' one has to know the chords/scales that are in that key.
    Boatload of web tutorials out there.

    Good luck....carry on.
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  11. #761
    Aussie mullineux1's Avatar
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    Hey guys,

    I am interested in learning music theory. Have any of you seen the Sonic Academy Music Theory - Scales for beginners videos?

    I just downloaded them and can't wait to watch them

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  12. #762
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    Originally Posted by AfroPope View Post
    any of you brahs know about playing by ear? I can read music fine but I've got an audition for a band coming up and I'm trying to learn the songs by ear. It's... tricky, to say the least.

    > pls respond
    Had an audition for a band a learned the song by ear...

    But then again I'm a vocalist so... lol
    I rate it 9/11
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  13. #763
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    1) MODES of the Major Scale

    To explain modes I found it "easy" doing it this way:

    Staying in the key of C major to make things simple: C D E F G A B C

    I) Ionian (Major) - No alterations, since the key is C major just play a simple C Major scale (C D E F G A B C)
    II) Dorian (Minor) - Typically used in Jazz, it is a Minor scale starting on D (second note in C major, thus the second mode) with a raised 6th (D E F G A B C D)
    III) Phrygian (Minor) - Typically used in Metal and has a somewhat of a middle eastern type vibe, it is a Minor scale starting on E (third note in C major, thus the third mode) with a flat 2 (E F G A B C D E)
    IV) Lydian (Major) - One of the brighter sounding modes, it doesn't have too much feeling either happy or sad and would typically be used in a song that would be about just thinking, or going on a car ride, or something simple. It is a major scale starting on F (fourth note in C major, thus the fourth mode) with a raised fourth (F G A B C D E F)
    V) Mixolydian (Dominant) - Typically used in rock and blues, it is a major scale starting on G (fifth note in C major, thus the fifth mode) with a dominant 7, or flat 7 (G A B C D E F G)
    VI) Aeolian (Minor) - No alterations, the relative minor of C major (A minor) so just a minor scale played starting on A (A B C D E F G A)
    VII) Locrian (Half-Diminished (7b5)) - The least used mode, it is a minor scale starting on B (seventh note in C major, thus the seventh mode) with a flat 2 and a flat 5 (B C D E F G A B)

    To summarized:
    I) Ionian (Major scale)
    II) Dorian (Minor scale with #6)
    III) Phrygian (Minor scale with b2)
    IV) Lydian (Major scale with #4)
    V) Mixolydian (Major scale with b7)
    VI) Aeolian (Minor scale)
    VII) Locrian (Minor scale with b2 and b5)

    To summarize even further:
    Ex. key of C major (same applies to any key): Each mode is just changing what note is being used as the tonic (or root) while maintaining the same notes of the original key (C major in this case)


    2) Major Keys

    Now when tackling key signatures people like using the circle of 5ths, and while a good method there are also shortcuts within the method to make it easier once you simply know the keys F, C, G, D, A, and E. If you know those 6 keys the rest (of the major keys) are easy and I'll show you how:

    Sharps (#) Flats (b)
    C - 0 - C
    G - 1 - F
    D - 2 - Bb
    A - 3 - Eb
    E - 4 - Ab
    B - 5 - Db
    F# - 6 - Gb
    C# - 7 - Cb

    The middle row shoes how many flats or sharps are within the given key, now to know which sharps or flats are within the key: F C G D A E B for the order of sharps (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle) and B E A D G C F for the order of flats (Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father)

    Now to get at what I was talking about, if you know those 6 major keys:
    F (Bb)
    C (No sharps or flats)
    G (F#)
    D (F#, C#)
    A (F#, C#, G#)
    E (F#, C#, G#, D#)
    The same letter (G and Gb, F and F#, C and Cb or C#, E and Eb, A and Ab, etc.) adds up to seven accidentals (sharps and flats) total, E major for example, there are four sharps, F#, C#, G#, and D#. Since we know this we can now deduct that Eb major will have three flats (4 + 3 = 7) and those flats will be Bb, Eb, and Ab. You will also notice that the flat a sharp notes are opposite (the notes B, E, and A are natural (neither flat nor sharp) in E major while the notes F, C, G, and D are natural in Eb major). This works for every key.

    Another example:

    G Major G A B C D E F# (1 total)

    Gb Major Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (6 total)

    Total (#s/bs) 1b 1b 1b 1b 1b 1b 1# (7 total)

    It is important to know that there are 30 keys total, it's insane how many musicians don't know this but that's how many there are (15 major keys and 15 minor).

    Also learning the notes on the fretboard (for string instruments) is also really important and again a lot of musicians don't know them, or don't know them well enough.


    3) Things to practice

    For the most part the following includes taking a guitar or bass approach, but similar approaches can be used by different instruments as well.

    1)While scales are important to practice, just playing them ascending and descending is not the best approach for going about it. Play the scale down one string, play the scale by playing every arpeggio possible within it, try playing the scale to sound like different genres (rock, metal, jazz, classical, blues, country, bebop, R&B, etc.), have fun with different fingerings and ways about playing them and don't limit yourself. Most importantly make it musical.

    2)The most important scale is also one of the scales practiced the least, even though it should be practiced the most. That scale is the Chromatic Scale. The Chromatic scale includes all 12 notes (A A#/Bb B C C#/Dd D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab), it is every note. Practice playing every note, get used to the sounds, find the sounds you don't like and play it until it doesn't sound "wrong" to you anymore. If you play the Chromatic Scale over ANY song it will sound good as long as you are in the same groove as the rest of the band. The problem is people don't spend time practicing the "wrong" notes when they really should. To expand on this here are the 10 components that make up music:

    1. Notes
    2. Dynamics
    3. Feel/Emotion
    4. Listening
    5. Articulation/Duration
    6. Space/Rest
    7. Phrasing
    8. Tone
    9. Technique
    10. Rhythm/Tempo

    Now it's funny that the one thing most of us care about is the one thing that is the least important, and that is the notes being played. No one has ever danced to a C. Numbers 2 - 10 together create groove. If you play a solo and play all the right notes but have no sense of 2 - 10 you will sound awful, but if you were to solo playing completely out of key but able to maintain 2 - 10 it will sound good and begin to sound right. Now then how do you practice 2 - 10? Well if notes aren't important by rights you should only need one, so practicing a one note solo is the way to do this.

    Also, in a scale there are 7 notes, in total there are 12, so that leaves 5 "wrong" notes. That means that if you play any note you will be "right" more than 50% of the time, and if you're "wrong" slide up or down a semitone and you'll be on a "right" note again.

    3)If you want to expand your creativity get a looping pedal and play something completely random (hit a random bunch of notes, literally hit you instrument getting the percussion sound, whack the strings, whatever) and loop it and get confident playing anything. It forces you to be creative and the goal is to turn that random thing you did into something that sounds good.
    Last edited by KevinOnABulk; 09-17-2014 at 10:08 PM.
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    Registered User wanderer1's Avatar
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    Hi, this is the first song ive recorded but there will be many more coming soon
    Skag - What happens on your Perfect Day
    Let me know what you think and if you like it could you please share it on ******** or twitter etc.
    Peace
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    Professional musician brah here. I was a theory major in university
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    Originally Posted by AfroPope View Post
    any of you brahs know about playing by ear? I can read music fine but I've got an audition for a band coming up and I'm trying to learn the songs by ear. It's... tricky, to say the least.

    > pls respond
    I would strongly suggest some interval pitch training. Sounds like you need to develop your ear. Interval training will help a ton!
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    One of the best new producers out right now. Dude is incredibly talented. I remember when he was still in high school. I came across his stuff on reverb nation and make contact with him to ask about using some of his tracks as background music for our photography studio. Since that time about 7 years ago, dude has blown up....and for good reason. One of the best, most talented producers I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.



    Just for fun to show off his keyboard skills...


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    So glad I found this. Music teacher here. I could definitely use some brushing up.
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    Punk Jazz pengh's Avatar
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    IMO if you aren't comfortable with the major scale/arpeggio (knowing like the back of your hand) don't even bother with MODES.

    And any of you bass players, learn arpeggios (chord tones) 1st. Not Scales. Your job is to outline chords (that the guitar/piano) player is playing. Arpeggios and grove.

    and for Interval training this is goat http://www.musictheory.net/exercises/ear-interval
    Last edited by pengh; 02-18-2015 at 12:24 PM.
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    Registered User LatsDoorFly's Avatar
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    Im working on an app to teach music theory as it seems like there isn't much in terms of structured resources out there. It would be video lessons supplemented with exercises that are heavily focused on ear training. How many of you guys would be interested in something like this? Would you be willing to pay for it?
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    Originally Posted by pengh View Post
    And any of you bass players, learn arpeggios (chord tones) 1st. Not Scales. Your job is to outline chords (that the guitar/piano) player is playing.
    Well... that might get you through some remedial rock and pop tunes. But as soon as you delve into jazz, you'll also need to know your scales, because walking basslines work better with stepwise motion outlining chords and connecting them to adjacent chords.
    But yeah, baby-steps: If you're a beginning bassist you're probably not thinking about jazz yet anyhow.
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    Originally Posted by Master.D. View Post
    Hey all,

    When it comes to music theory I know my stuff as I have spent a lot of time getting private theory lessons and composing and what not.

    So I thought, if anyone here has any questions about scales, keys, four part harmony, counterpoint, or anything they could ask me and I will try my hardest to answer!

    Cheers,
    Gav
    i always wanted to go to school for this
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    Punk Jazz pengh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BusterMudd View Post
    Well... that might get you through some remedial rock and pop tunes. But as soon as you delve into jazz, you'll also need to know your scales, because walking basslines work better with stepwise motion outlining chords and connecting them to adjacent chords.
    But yeah, baby-steps: If you're a beginning bassist you're probably not thinking about jazz yet anyhow.
    Yeah i'm saying arpeggios BEFORE scales for a beginning bassist. There are notes in the Maj scale that don't necessarily sound to "good" over a major chord *when playing a bass line. Focusing on basic chord tones (arpeggios) will get you a lot farther faster. Even a 2-5-1 jazz progression, knowing basic root-3rd-5th-7th for what ever types of chords being played will go a long way. If you can groove using chord tones you're good to go.
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    I play the piano since some years. I'd like to study basic music theory or maybe intermediate since I know how to read music, tempo, the circle of fith etc.
    I was thinking about studying Schoenberg, something about conterpoint, train to play by ear, sing notes, expand my chords and scales knowledge.
    I think I would miss something about melodies composition. Any suggestion?

    I don't want to become a music theory nerd, I want to get the most useful knowledge and then put it into practice.
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  25. #775
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    Hey guys, I'm doing a project for my uni degree and I've left it a little late, I'm hoping to get some responses on my survey about the link between music theory and improvisation, something I've found really interesting so far, if you have a moment!

    www.surveymonkey.com/s/RTQM3T9
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  26. #776
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    Originally Posted by Wayne Evans View Post
    Your welcome....

    Anything worth doing in life requires sacrifice.
    In your case that 'sacrifice' is dedication, discipline and time.....there are no short cuts for these criteria.
    Learn the language of music so you are able to communicate effectively with those that have 'more knowledge'.

    Know your creative priority, choose a game plan and stay on that path.
    I cannot emphasize enough to surround yourself with those having more knowledge than yourself along with real world experience.

    Should you begin to write or compose and ask for critiques/feedback you'd best have the skin of a snow tire.
    I rarely (to never) offer critiques anymore because people don't want honest assessments of their efforts.

    I'll keep an eye on this thread is case I can offer more 'bluntness' for your creative music quest.

    Carry on....good luck.
    Hey Wayne, first of all can't believe I just found out about this thread now, the info in here is absolute GOLD.

    I think that you are spot on with feedback. Many people ask for feedback and expect only positive responses with people saying they loved it and it was perfect, and may get taken back or even insulted if someone comes in and actually offers them detailed critique and feedback geared to help improve their sound.

    The undeniable truth is that making music is an entrepreneurial activity, no different than going out and trying to design a product or service for the masses. If you are proceeding without getting constant feedback on how to improve your "product", you are doing yourself and your potential customers (or fans in this case) a huge disservice by not working hard and making sacrifices to offer the highest quality product you are capable of.
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  27. #777
    I love bacon..... Wayne Evans's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shoobey View Post
    Hey Wayne, first of all can't believe I just found out about this thread now, the info in here is absolute GOLD.
    Howdy....
    Glad you found it useful.

    To respond....
    I belong to a few music sites which by default have a 'songs' forum so people can solicit comments.
    These sites are not what I would call real honest critiquing forums.....they're support forums regardless actual songwriting talent or respectable musicianship.
    Most to all who choose to respond will say positive comments.
    But....I've been in live bands and have been writing for four decades and am not easily impressed.

    Unless a song has well written lyrics with good musicianship I don't comment.
    In this case I ascribe to if I can't say something genuinely positive I don't comment.
    If someone has childish thin skin or is easily offended by someone's less than complimentary comments about their songwriting efforts then don't put them on the web.
    Of course, music preference is subjective and there are a few music genres that are totally vapid to me and have absolutely no appeal so I would never inject my comments.

    If one's path is to get rich and famous in the music world and really want to get real world reviews ('improving your product') as to how your songs fit into the commercial world then join TAXI or other similar (pay for service) sites.....then.....good luck.
    Comments from friends, family and in generic music forums means little to nothing in the commercial world and only allows one to naively think they are actually good and merely massages one's ego.

    Me...I used to have that ambition back in my era during the 70'-80's because I was in an all original band and we were pretty good.
    I'm quite comfortable with my musicianship and songwriting ability and the songwriting process is merely a continuing process of creative therapy.
    Chasing that commercial dragon requires writing sappy, pop cliche shvt, connections and a boatload of luck.

    We all have different creative propensities and will pursue them for different reasons.
    I don't give a rat's azz whether listeners think my material is commercially viable or not.
    What's more important to me since my live band days is what do my peers and those that are far better than myself think of my songs.

    So...learn the language of music, choose your path, understand what's required to get there, surround yourself with those far better than yourself and figure out a way to distinguish yourself from all the other commercial music clones.

    It's a brutal world pursuing a music career.
    That's my take on it all.

    Carry on....
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  28. #778
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    An A# is also a Bb, so how do you know when to say A sharp or B flat?
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    Originally Posted by 00o View Post
    An A# is also a Bb, so how do you know when to say A sharp or B flat?
    scale
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    Registered User 8trent's Avatar
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    impressive keys
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