The music theory thread! For aspiring musicians and composers

[johnsbod]

Indeed, it is the quintessential book for learning music theory especially if self-taught. I may not have the expertise you do, johnsbod, but my girlfriend and I both did our time in the music school (She on tuba and I on trombone and a little bit of tuba). I'm sure there are more qualified people to answers questions but I'll be happy to do my part.

Do you work in music now or are you doing something else?

[Tromboner45]

That is amazing! Congratulations on that! (I've always wanted to meet a person with a PhD in music theory).

My question is this:

How much of musical ability comes from innate talent? Does potential differ greatly from person to person? (For example, in bodybuilding genetics matter a lot- length of muscle bellies, proportion of fast twitch fibers, etc.,etc.)

Is this something that was discussed in any of your classes?

If Dr. Johnsbod doesn't mind me stepping in here, I believe genetics plays a minor role in musical ability. Some people are just not meant to be playing a certain instrument just as some are not necessarily good players (relatively speaking) but understand theory on a level that I can't even fathom. I had a friend who was AMAZING at trombone. Literally, in the next few years, his name will be all over. He is on a full ride at CalArts. He practiced about 30 minutes a day. He constantly smoked pot and used to mix coke, x and speed before orchestral performances (in which he always had solos). He was into the avante garde stuff and just blew every one in the school out of the water. Some argued that he was better than the grammy-winning trombone professor. Back on topic, to an extent, yes, genetics plays a part.

[Tromboner45]

Do you work in music now or are you doing something else?

I'm putting my musical genius to work by building and installing fences. I think about playing every day and miss the hell out of it. Music is just a whole other world.

[Self Discipline]

Could you post some of your own music?

[johnsbod]

Could you post some of your own music?

Me?

I'm not a composer.

[Self Discipline]

The OP.

[Kraman]

what do you think about the program fruity loops? it encompasses a whole music production studio in one

check it out.. free fully functional demo

www.flstudio.com

[Tromboner45]

what do you think about the program fruity loops? it encompasses a whole music production studio in one

check it out.. free fully functional demo

www.flstudio.com

Personally, I don't care for it. If you're serious about composition and theory, check out finale. That and one whose name isn't coming to mind right now are what most people use. I think FL is for rapper wannabes. Just my opinion, though.

[dansta]

anyone know how to more "hip" into keyboard playing? How does people remix songs on the fly? What are some chords that are used? Any chord progression that sounds good?

[Tromboner45]

anyone know how to more "hip" into keyboard playing? How does people remix songs on the fly? What are some chords that are used? Any chord progression that sounds good?

Its hard to answer someone who sounds like they don't really know what they are talking about. Assuming you have any kind of theory under your belt, I'll leave you with this; Study hymns. In hymns you will find the basis of 90% of the pop music of the past 50 years.

[Hesh]

Personally, I don't care for it. If you're serious about composition and theory, check out finale. That and one whose name isn't coming to mind right now are what most people use. I think FL is for rapper wannabes. Just my opinion, though.

Dude did you know that Souljahboy's album was made entirely on Fruity Loops?
'Crank Dat' was the #1 song in the world for seven weeks straight.

[Tromboner45]

Dude did you know that Souljahboy's album was made entirely on Fruity Loops?
'Crank Dat' was the #1 song in the world for seven weeks straight.

Well, seeing as how that is really quality music, I suppose I stand corrected.

Seriously, though, not sure what you're talking about. Souljaboy doesn't really have anything to do with composition or theory.

[snwdevl10]

Hey guys, quick question. I've played guitar for about two years now and would say I am OK hand skill wise at this point. I don't know how to read music, I know some basic scales, but not much more, usually I just play tabs. I jam with friends who are pretty good musicians so I'd really like to learn more.

Where would you all suggest I start? Learning more scales, modes, learning how to read music? I really have no idea...

Thanks

[Master.D.]

Admittedly I don't know as much as Johnsbod and Tromboner, but I will try my hardest still to answer any questions that I can and I rest assured with the idea that almost all of the questions asked by the people on this forum will fit into what I know. Nonetheless, here goes!

as strict as music theory is and with all these rules, would you say it's hard to create original music? is it even possible without being dissonant and tasteful to a specific audience?

Hmm, I've had my experience with a lot of people that lack knowledge on the subject of composition and one thing I always hear is that they are afraid to learn theory because they are worried their music will sound monotonous, etc.

First thing you need to understand is that things you learn about harmony and all that in music theory are not rules, but are in fact guidelines. Just because your fourth grade theory book tells you not to employ the use of parallel fifths in four part harmony doesn't mean you're not allowed to. One very famous composer (his name has slipped my mind) was renowned for his excessive use of parallel fifths in his harmony. Did he ever get "fired" from composition??

In my experience, the knowledge I gained from understanding music theory has actually helped me write more unique music and also allowed me to appreciate moreso music that isn't based on typical IV-V-vi or IV-V-I progressions !

also, a bit less relating to music theory and more on instruments itself, in guitar pro 5, you can pretty much use any instrument you want, but it's still based off a guitar's range. how do i found out what notes are technically possible and at what octaves? and i don't know if there is any fancy name or way of telling which octaves are which. lol

Well, there are two ways.. one is authentic and one is cheating haha.

First method is to study the instruments themselves or buy certain books (also, studying up to grade 5 AMEB [Australian] music theory will require you to know the range for most orchestral instruments) to learn their general range.

Second method is to use Sibelius, haha. The noteheads will appear blue if you are in the instruments range and red if you exceed it, lol!

is it true that sound even follow rules of music theory? basically everything we here is notes?

Hmm, sound has been around a lot longer than people trying to explain it. "Note" is just a term given to define a certain pitch, but yes everything we hear is a sound of a certain pitch. The pitch of a sound is deduced from its frequency and amplitude to a lesser degree. It is dependent on how fast the particles are moved when a soundwave travels through a medium (rudimentary explanation).

Please, ask as many questions as you would like! I have a lot of time on my hands, haha.

How much of musical ability comes from innate talent? Does potential differ greatly from person to person? (For example, in bodybuilding genetics matter a lot- length of muscle bellies, proportion of fast twitch fibers, etc.,etc.)

I would personally say that a fair amount comes from innate talent but at the same time that potential does not differ "greatly" from person to person.

I myself believe to have been gifted with innate talent for piano and guitar playing, considering that in under a year I was able to get myself from grade 4 standard to A.mus standard (approximately the equivalent of grade 10) with maybe 30 minutes of actual practice every two days (but maybe an hour per day of general piano playing). Also after picking up the guitar for only one year I was at a standard that certain friends had not yet reached in several several years (but this could be due to my dexterity achieved from piano playing). My mother and my mother's mother and my father's mother and my great great great etc grandmothers have all been exceptional piano players and thusly I have been exposed to the instrument since before I was born!

Plus, I ain't the best at sports so I gotta be good at something, ..

I am very interested in this thread. I have about 2.5 yrs of guitar under my belt. I want to learn more about theory, I am very limiting with my knowledge of the notes and how to harmonize. I basically read tabs and listen to songs to learn them. I have had no formal lessons.
Any advice on where to begin would be great.

First learn how to read music, from practically any books/online sources. Then slowly advance your learning in a predefined structure (most sites and books will have lessons in a logical order). This will probably suffice to teach you as much theory as you need or are interested in learning. If you want to learn anything particularly advanced you may need to attend a class or get private lessons.

Could you post some of your own music?

A lot of my compositions are guitar/guitar/bass/drums based, and only fairly recently have I dabbled in piano or orchestral compositions.

That said, I will gladly post up some MIDI interpretations of compositions of mine but must admit that I am rather self conscious around intellects such as johnsbod as my compositions are rather basic because I am too afraid to write music that is not tonal in a sense defined by pop music, haha. Nonetheless I will give it a shot sometime in the near future.

That and one whose name isn't coming to mind right now are what most people use.

Sibelius?

In hymns you will find the basis of 90% of the pop music of the past 50 years.

So very true, it makes me happy in pants when I hear someone say this as a lot of laymen fail to realise this fact!

Hey guys, quick question. I've played guitar for about two years now and would say I am OK hand skill wise at this point. I don't know how to read music, I know some basic scales, but not much more, usually I just play tabs. I jam with friends who are pretty good musicians so I'd really like to learn more.

Where would you all suggest I start? Learning more scales, modes, learning how to read music? I really have no idea...

Thanks

Hmm.. I, as well as many other people, would tell you that it is absolutely imperative that you learn how to read music before learning about anything else. However, I have known a lot of guitarists that possess significant knowledge about scales/modes/intervals without the ability to read music. However, if you are interested in possessing knowledge regarding more advanced aspects of basic theory then you will need to know how to read music.

-----

Phew, that was a big one!

-Gav

[johnsbod]

Its hard to answer someone who sounds like they don't really know what they are talking about. Assuming you have any kind of theory under your belt, I'll leave you with this; Study hymns. In hymns you will find the basis of 90% of the pop music of the past 50 years.

That's great advice.

[MetaPhysical]

Johns and tromboner, I don't know if it would be a lot of trouble, but could you post a comprehensive reading list of texts and workbooks for the aspiring theorist. Or if that would be too much trouble, what are some authors I should look for?

I have been trying to find materials myself, and have found some decent things, but I don't really know where to look and what texts are worth buying.

[Tromboner45]

Johns and tromboner, I don't know if it would be a lot of trouble, but could you post a comprehensive reading list of texts and workbooks for the aspiring theorist. Or if that would be too much trouble, what are some authors I should look for?

I have been trying to find materials myself, and have found some decent things, but I don't really know where to look and what texts are worth buying.

Definitely the Kostka/Payne Tonal Harmony with the workbook. Secondly, in my opinion, you should learn an instrument to apply these principles to. Piano is the best, voice is the easiest but they are all fun, again, just my opinion. There is also a book on sightsinging (an important skill to everyone sa you must KNOW it to sing it) that is critical, I think the author may be Oppenheimer. Pick up those and read them front to back. If you master all the principles that are thoroughly explained in these books, you will be ahead of 99% of the population.

[johnsbod]

Definitely the Kostka/Payne Tonal Harmony with the workbook. Secondly, in my opinion, you should learn an instrument to apply these principles to. Piano is the best, voice is the easiest but they are all fun, again, just my opinion. There is also a book on sightsinging (an important skill to everyone sa you must KNOW it to sing it) that is critical, I think the author may be Oppenheimer. Pick up those and read them front to back. If you master all the principles that are thoroughly explained in these books, you will be ahead of 99% of the population.

You're thinking of the Robert Ottman book Music for Sight Singing.

[Tromboner45]

You're thinking of the Robert Ottman book Music for Sight Singing.

You, sir... Are the man. Enjoy my humble reps.

[tikitariki]

I started learning music theory using musictheory.net. I was having fun, especially up to the lesson of the scales. however the lessons started getting less interactive (i have a guitar btw) and was more "learning" stuff, which I didn't see much use in, but I'm sure it is very important. In short, I got bored, speed read, skipped around. Is there a way to learn music theory the fun way? I bet if I was forced to or had to write it down I would do better. :-(

[Master.D.]

I started learning music theory using musictheory.net. I was having fun, especially up to the lesson of the scales. however the lessons started getting less interactive (i have a guitar btw) and was more "learning" stuff, which I didn't see much use in, but I'm sure it is very important. In short, I got bored, speed read, skipped around. Is there a way to learn music theory the fun way? I bet if I was forced to or had to write it down I would do better. :-(

Can't really help you here bro, I was always fascinated enough to continue learning. Which parts confused you? Maybe I could write up a quick tutorial and try to make it more interesting!

Gav

[tikitariki]

Can't really help you here bro, I was always fascinated enough to continue learning. Which parts confused you? Maybe I could write up a quick tutorial and try to make it more interesting!

Gav

well, from what i remember, i had trouble with key signatures. well, not really trouble, but they kind of tossed it in early on, so i didn't see the purpose and kind of skimmed through it. i understood what it does ... sort of, i don't see the purpose of it though.

[johnsbod]

well, from what i remember, i had trouble with key signatures. well, not really trouble, but they kind of tossed it in early on, so i didn't see the purpose and kind of skimmed through it. i understood what it does ... sort of, i don't see the purpose of it though.

What you are talking about if really not music theory, but the fundamentals of music. That kind of information really needs to just be memorized. Key signatures tell you what the accidentals will be in a given key (keys are named after the tonic note) so that the sharps and flats do not need to be repeatedly written out before each note.

[MarkVI]

For you musicians - - how do you memorize tunes? Do you do it by number (II--V7-IMaj)? So you can play it any key or is it easier for you to learn it in the standard key and then just transpose in your mind when the chart is called in a different key?

[Tromboner45]

For you musicians - - how do you memorize tunes? Do you do it by number (II--V7-IMaj)? So you can play it any key or is it easier for you to learn it in the standard key and then just transpose in your mind when the chart is called in a different key?

Interval training. If you know the key and you have a good understanding of intervals, you're golden.

[johnsbod]

Interval training. If you know the key and you have a good understanding of intervals, you're golden.

It also helps if you understand the harmonic function so that you can easily play the same piece in any key.

[mroth86]

haha...i spent 6 years being trained in classical singing..the stuff is honestly crazy. I also have been playing guitar for the last 9 years.

Arpreggios can be a bitch, as well as circular breathing for singing

[MarkVI]

Interval training. If you know the key and you have a good understanding of intervals, you're golden.

Yeah, this is how I do it too -- it makes it so easy....It's really nice when you're backing up a vocalist and she calls somewhere over the rainbow (again....) in C and instead of saying "what? who plays it in C?!?!" You say "any key is fine"....always in C, or E....ugh.




For sight reading, what tricks do you guys use? I skim the next few bars and start to sing them (then my brain usually kicks in). This comes in handy and works well because I usually play on a cruise ship and they're bringing in guest acts continuously....

[Master.D.]

Bump, will reply to posts after gym. Also, I'm going to upload a clip of a composition of mine for you guys to listen to and comment on =)

Gav

[Tromboner45]

Yeah, this is how I do it too -- it makes it so easy....It's really nice when you're backing up a vocalist and she calls somewhere over the rainbow (again....) in C and instead of saying "what? who plays it in C?!?!" You say "any key is fine"....always in C, or E....ugh.




For sight reading, what tricks do you guys use? I skim the next few bars and start to sing them (then my brain usually kicks in). This comes in handy and works well because I usually play on a cruise ship and they're bringing in guest acts continuously....

The best thing for sightreading is to SIGHTREAD. Seriously, I would do it for hours. It can be fun. Learn exactly what some things look like, ie a certain run specific to your instrument or part in that song or genre. Those really come in handy.