The music theory thread! For aspiring musicians and composers

[Frostillicus]

Assuming that you're absolutely starting from scratch, I think it would be easier to learn the chromatic scale before major/minor (don't need to be pedantic about enharmonic spelling at this stage).
This will give you the "alphabet" of notes.
Then learn the fretboard layout in standard tuning.
Then go to major and minor scales.

[PacmanMacman]

Hey guys im looking into starting to learn how to produce. However I have no musical background. Am wondering if there are any books/sites/forums that can help me get started on basic music theory, basic tutorials for logic pro, etc. I plan on making trance music. Also is there any type of hierarchy in which some genres are harder to produce than others? Lke 140 trance example vs. minimal.

[JayGH]

Hey guys im looking into starting to learn how to produce. However I have no musical background. Am wondering if there are any books/sites/forums that can help me get started on basic music theory, basic tutorials for logic pro, etc. I plan on making trance music. Also is there any type of hierarchy in which some genres are harder to produce than others? Lke 140 trance example vs. minimal.

Am in exactly the same position.

Reps for good answers.

[joocybruin69]

Hey guys. I rarely ever 'compose'... but I try to every now and then. Here's a problem I seem to constantly run into.

When improvising, I'll find a melody/progression that I like. I usually play around with what I like a little more and jot down what I like.

I'm in school though, so I rarely spend more than an hour at a time working with music... so I'll come back half a week later and often find myself completely unable to relate to 'them feels' from when I originally composed the piece.

Any ideas?

[joocybruin69]

Hey guys im looking into starting to learn how to produce. However I have no musical background. Am wondering if there are any books/sites/forums that can help me get started on basic music theory, basic tutorials for logic pro, etc. I plan on making trance music. Also is there any type of hierarchy in which some genres are harder to produce than others? Lke 140 trance example vs. minimal.

You really can't go wrong with learning basic music theory. It'll expand your ability to be creative and make your work much quicker. I learnt a lot of my music theory from youtube honestly... I do enough reading at school.

[7diamonds]

Hey guys im looking into starting to learn how to produce. However I have no musical background. Am wondering if there are any books/sites/forums that can help me get started on basic music theory, basic tutorials for logic pro, etc. I plan on making trance music. Also is there any type of hierarchy in which some genres are harder to produce than others? Lke 140 trance example vs. minimal.

Sorry for bumping but if you're still looking for advices, there's a forum that I really like about it it's futureproducers. com. Lot of informations about different programs and music genre. You can also find good tutorial for logic on youtube. I find it more user friendly than few others programs for beginners. Listen a lot of the music you wanna produce and try to learn a bit of music theory, you gotta know the basics even for producing. I would like to help you more with that, I studied music production and sound engineering but since I only do hip-hop I can't give you lots of precise advices for trance and that kind of stuff.

[Abbs19]

Hey guys. I rarely ever 'compose'... but I try to every now and then. Here's a problem I seem to constantly run into.

When improvising, I'll find a melody/progression that I like. I usually play around with what I like a little more and jot down what I like.

I'm in school though, so I rarely spend more than an hour at a time working with music... so I'll come back half a week later and often find myself completely unable to relate to 'them feels' from when I originally composed the piece.

Any ideas?

I do this all the time! Sometimes I go back and don't even like what I composed or I mess around with it too much and it doesn't even sound the same. I have no idea how to fix this... I think it's just part of writing music. Lol

[Danthesaxman]

I like to call that little situation the "cheese test." Mostly because for me, it typically involves licks or patterns to be used in jazz improvisation (although often enough in the melody of a tune), which sometimes stink like old cheese after a break. The thing is, a lot of the time things sound better the first time you hear them. On subsequent listens, this breaks down -- and not always for the same reason. Sometimes it's because it's more familiar, so it starts to sound trite (in this situation, refer to a trusted second party, as it may still be usable). Other times it's because you were in a good mood, or a goofy mood, or an inattentive mood, etc, when you wrote it. In this situation, into the trash and on to the next idea.

[Wayne Evans]

I'll briefly chime in.

IMO....

As stated in post #775 I'd suggest learning the language of music....theory.
Being a musician and composing are two different concepts and learning the language is paramount and will help one's ability to communicate with other composers/musicians.
I also think the definition of producer has gotten quite clouded over the years given all the incredible technology and tools we are able to have in our personal arsenal.

Carry on....

[fihe]

I took AP Music Theory and a bunch of other music classes in high school, including orchestra. In fact, I almost became a music major when I was in college.

I must ask: How do you feel about composers such as Arnold Schoenberg, who did away with tonality altogether and used the twelve-tone system? Do you find such music pleasant to listen to? I think it sounds interesting but at times, a bit...spooky.

[Danthesaxman]

I like a lot of Schoenberg's transitional works, like his early atonal piano pieces (Opus 11, 19). Some of his 12-tone stuff is pretty good, but for me Berg is the master when it comes to 12-tone.

As a saxophonist, I've listened to so much modern music that harmonies from the Western Viennese School hardly make me blink. That said, I think the some of the most beautiful pieces of music written manage to bridge the gap between tonality and atonality.

[BusterMudd]

I must ask: How do you feel about composers such as Arnold Schoenberg, who did away with tonality altogether and used the twelve-tone system? Do you find such music pleasant to listen to? I think it sounds interesting but at times, a bit...spooky.

I enjoy some of Schoenberg's music...and others, not so much. The thing is, I find that the reasons I like or dislike various Schoenberg pieces has very little to do with how tonal or atonal or serial etc they are. It has to do with what he's done with his materials, the overall structure and texture of his compositions.

There are plenty of serial and/or atonal composers whose music I like much more than Schoenberg's: Varese, Webern, Babbitt, Carter, Lutoslawski... all absolute monsters.

[Antifarer]

Impressed theres a thread of this kind on the misc. Doesn't seem too active though. Might post some music some time

[Analdentist]

Anyone know an easy way to learn how to count time signatures?

[colonelcross]

I played the piano for 8 years but now it's been about 7 since I last played, anybody got any tips for knocking the rust off? I can't even read music anymore I don't think. Fuark.

[94brian]

hey there
no disrespect or anything offensive ,but i done better without theory.
i always think that theory will only kill my creativity.
it's like draw something with your eyes closed would be better sometime,just let your 'inspiration' guide you
what you guys think?i bet there's thousand of musician who doesn't learn the theory xD
but ofcause there's some useful theory i know about too,just not all of em
hehe,peace out.

[Kurnuk]

hey there
no disrespect or anything offensive ,but i done better without theory.
i always think that theory will only kill my creativity.
it's like draw something with your eyes closed would be better sometime,just let your 'inspiration' guide you
what you guys think?i bet there's thousand of musician who doesn't learn the theory xD
but ofcause there's some useful theory i know about too,just not all of em
hehe,peace out.

Theory limits you if you think of it as a set of rules. Going with the gut feeling is fine as long as you're soloing things, especially when you don't know the direction you're going to with your song. However, when you have a desired outcome already planned, even basic knowledge of theory will speed up your workflow drastically. You'd automatically know which notes create a certain chord, and which chords a certain kind of progression.

Without knowing theory, you're gonna have a hard time communicating your ideas back and forth, should you ever start collaborating with other artists and producers.

[BusterMudd]

Anyone know an easy way to learn how to count time signatures?

"Easy" may be a misnomer, but here's an easier way to deal with meter in general than just sitting there tapping your toes along with every beat while thinking "one-ee-and-a two-ee-and-a three-ee-and-a four-ee-and-a...."

Realize that any time signature can be subdivided as groups of twos or threes. Any larger grouping is simply some combination of those smaller building blocks. So a typical measure of 4/4 breaks down into four groups of two, each group being a pair of eighth notes: "one-and / two-and / three-and / four-and". A typical measure of 6/8 breaks down into two groups of three, each group being a trio of eighth notes: "one-two-three / two-two-three".

But you don't need to count all those "one-ands" or "one-two-threes", you just need to know it's two two two two, or three three.

A measure of 7/8 winds up being two two three (or three two two, or two three two). A measure of 5/4 could be two two two two two, or it could be two three two three (or three two three two, or three two two three), etc. And this applies to any & all time signatures.

The point is, these internal subdivisions -- these twos and threes -- are more important to understanding the phrasing and stress points of a given time signature than knowing the total number of beats in a bar and/or where you are within that bar.

[ucbmetal]

I do this all the time! Sometimes I go back and don't even like what I composed or I mess around with it too much and it doesn't even sound the same. I have no idea how to fix this... I think it's just part of writing music. Lol

Yeah this is kind of part of the beast desafortunadamente I have found, however, that you can minimize how often this happens by narrowing down what you like about a given chord progression. Typically, there will be two or three notes in the context of the larger harmony that are really sticking out to you as being cool. Really focus on those notes and how the rhythm (if you've established one) sits in the pocket. That way when you come back you can sort of build from the ground up. I do that with a lot of riffs and parts I write for guitar that end up getting really complicated, but there's always a core idea that sticks with me.

[ucbmetal]

Anyone know an easy way to learn how to count time signatures?

Alright, this might be a groaner, but ALWAYS remember to count in monosyllabic syllables (one two three four five six sev eight). Also, for quarter note taking the beat (4/4) , count 1 e and uh e and uh .... Where eighth note takes the beat (4/8) count one and two and three and .... and where a 16th note takes the beat (4/16) , just count one two three . . .

[Buoy]

Theory limits you if you think of it as a set of rules. Going with the gut feeling is fine as long as you're soloing things, especially when you don't know the direction you're going to with your song. However, when you have a desired outcome already planned, even basic knowledge of theory will speed up your workflow drastically. You'd automatically know which notes create a certain chord, and which chords a certain kind of progression.

Without knowing theory, you're gonna have a hard time communicating your ideas back and forth, should you ever start collaborating with other artists and producers.

Ever notice how it's the guys who say "theory limits my creativity" whose output is the most bland and uncreative? One of my friends doesn't have a musical bone in his body and he's always ranting at me about the problems with a theory he can't even begin to understand. Music has rules and structure because without it you get "sound"; amusical, chaotic ****. Without knowing about sus chords or sevenths you may spend an eternity wondering why your creativity seems to have stalled because you can't get past I-iv-V. If anything, the more about music you know and understand the more broad your creative reach can be, and the less limited your songs turn out. /rant XD

[ckunke002]

Am in exactly the same position.

Reps for good answers.

If at all possible, take a course at a community college on theory, fundamentals, or if nothing else a piano class. As for how to learn DAW's, youtube is literally all you need, along with maybe a google search here and there. Just sit with it and learn, the resources are all over the internet. If you want to take up a certain instrument, try to learn scales, chords, melody structure, how rhythm works, time signatures etc. Again, youtube man... its all there

[Psychromatik]

Hey guys, I'm just going to throw my two cents to anyone who is aspiring to be a musician/composer. I haven't read much of this entire thread so what I say might be already stated but...

for a beginner I suggest not learning theory at ALL. Wait a year or so. I started playing guitar when I was 12 and didn't learn any amount of theory until I was at least 16. What you do before you learn theory, is learn how to hear. It sounds retarded but seriously, just become accustomed to the instrument without having any expectations. Its like starting a new relationship. Just take it slow and go in with not having any idea what to expect if you play this or play that. Develop your dexterity on the instrument, play a note and just listen to it. Pick two notes and see how they interact with each other. Come to learn the personality of each note.

After you are comfortable with this, and can hear the notes in your head BEFORE you play them, you are ready to learn theory. What this will do is put a label on the notes that you can identify in your head and on the instrument, so that you can communicate them to other people or on paper. It will also give labels to combinations of notes for quick reference.

I personally do not see theory as a means for composition. I have written about 5 songs and none of them used theory at all, it was all feel that I wanted to express. When you learn an instrument you gain a second voice. It should be played as a second voice, a voice that does not use words, but sound that speaks of emotions. After you have composed, then you can worry about the theory of your own song, so that you can convey your ideas using regular language.

But some people just see it as two sides of the same coin. However if you look to the great composers they didn't use theory, the theory was created by analyzing their works! Theory has its place, but don't let it constrain you in any way, it is merely a way to communicate what you created from the heart.

[CrazySlasher]

I'm just starting to learn how to read after many years playing. I was working on Aaron Copland's Fanfare For The Common Man but I can't get it. Now, when I play it by ear, I get:

F B F# (1 measure)
B F# E G# (2nd measure)
E B F (3rd measure)

Now, the 4th measure is where I lose everything. When I hear it, I hear E G# B, but when I read it I read it as: E G B. Why am I reading it as G natural and not G#?



Will rep for answers

[Robby Coker]

Hey guys, I'm just going to throw my two cents to anyone who is aspiring to be a musician/composer. I haven't read much of this entire thread so what I say might be already stated but...

for a beginner I suggest not learning theory at ALL. Wait a year or so. I started playing guitar when I was 12 and didn't learn any amount of theory until I was at least 16. What you do before you learn theory, is learn how to hear. It sounds retarded but seriously, just become accustomed to the instrument without having any expectations. Its like starting a new relationship. Just take it slow and go in with not having any idea what to expect if you play this or play that. Develop your dexterity on the instrument, play a note and just listen to it. Pick two notes and see how they interact with each other. Come to learn the personality of each note.

After you are comfortable with this, and can hear the notes in your head BEFORE you play them, you are ready to learn theory. What this will do is put a label on the notes that you can identify in your head and on the instrument, so that you can communicate them to other people or on paper. It will also give labels to combinations of notes for quick reference.

I personally do not see theory as a means for composition. I have written about 5 songs and none of them used theory at all, it was all feel that I wanted to express. When you learn an instrument you gain a second voice. It should be played as a second voice, a voice that does not use words, but sound that speaks of emotions. After you have composed, then you can worry about the theory of your own song, so that you can convey your ideas using regular language.

But some people just see it as two sides of the same coin. However if you look to the great composers they didn't use theory, the theory was created by analyzing their works! Theory has its place, but don't let it constrain you in any way, it is merely a way to communicate what you created from the heart.

I started doing music in 2009 although I didn't seriously get into it until summer of 2010.

I did my first four songs in spring 2009 without knowledge of music theory. I used OpenMPT and created them in module format. I only had my computer keyboard and samples taken from some other songs in my music collection, so my equipment and stuff wasn't great. I had to often go by trial and error to find which notes sounded good together.

The first song, an acid house style song, wasn't too bad. I was told that it was a bit atonal. My dad heard another one of mine, which was an RPG/adventure style song, and he thought that some of the instruments sounded somewhat off. I didn't notice this then when I had done the song; I had thought that it came out decent. He suggested that I learn music theory as it will give an arsenal to work with.

Some other songs I worked on that year, I would get stuck as I had trouble coming up with or harmonizing sections. I had difficulty finding what sounded good together. However, the instrument samples I used at the time were at different pitches than standard tuning. So, for example, when I hit the note A, it would actually play a different note (e.g. D, E, C).

If I had better equipment and sounds then, I think I could have done somewhat more before learning theory.

Since learning theory and getting better sounds & a midi keyboard in 2011, I started building upon some of the songs I had done in 2009 to improve them as well as create new original songs.

[tonewood]

I do this all the time! Sometimes I go back and don't even like what I composed or I mess around with it too much and it doesn't even sound the same. I have no idea how to fix this... I think it's just part of writing music. Lol

When I get something I like, I try to record it. Sadly, it doesnt always sound as cool as I thought when I listen to it...

[tonewood]

Hey guys, I'm just going to throw my two cents to anyone who is aspiring to be a musician/composer. I haven't read much of this entire thread so what I say might be already stated but...

for a beginner I suggest not learning theory at ALL. Wait a year or so. I started playing guitar when I was 12 and didn't learn any amount of theory until I was at least 16. What you do before you learn theory, is learn how to hear. It sounds retarded but seriously, just become accustomed to the instrument without having any expectations. Its like starting a new relationship. Just take it slow and go in with not having any idea what to expect if you play this or play that. Develop your dexterity on the instrument, play a note and just listen to it. Pick two notes and see how they interact with each other. Come to learn the personality of each note.

After you are comfortable with this, and can hear the notes in your head BEFORE you play them, you are ready to learn theory. What this will do is put a label on the notes that you can identify in your head and on the instrument, so that you can communicate them to other people or on paper. It will also give labels to combinations of notes for quick reference.

I personally do not see theory as a means for composition. I have written about 5 songs and none of them used theory at all, it was all feel that I wanted to express. When you learn an instrument you gain a second voice. It should be played as a second voice, a voice that does not use words, but sound that speaks of emotions. After you have composed, then you can worry about the theory of your own song, so that you can convey your ideas using regular language.

But some people just see it as two sides of the same coin. However if you look to the great composers they didn't use theory, the theory was created by analyzing their works! Theory has its place, but don't let it constrain you in any way, it is merely a way to communicate what you created from the heart.

I agree with all of this.

YOu learn the theory, and then you "forget" it.

The truth is that most music lives through imitation. Understanding music theory won't help you much in learning or memorizing chord progressions and songs. It will help you understand the relationship between scales and chords (which chords work in a key).

I really think a guy that covers 50 songs but doesn't know any theory will be a better composer than the guy who understands theory but hasn't covered many songs. The guy that doesn't understand theory can modify the songs he knows and make them his own. The guy who knows theory wont have learned any cool ideas, he will be more lost in coming up with stuff.

Knowing both is obviously the best. Once you can play, theory is no big deal. Diatonic / modal scale theory is the basis for western music. Once you get it theres not that much to it.

[BusterMudd]

I'm just starting to learn how to read after many years playing. I was working on Aaron Copland's Fanfare For The Common Man but I can't get it. Now, when I play it by ear, I get:

F B F# (1 measure)
B F# E G# (2nd measure)
E B F (3rd measure)

Now, the 4th measure is where I lose everything. When I hear it, I hear E G# B, but when I read it I read it as: E G B. Why am I reading it as G natural and not G#?



Will rep for answers

All of these discrepancies are due to the fact that you're "hearing" it in a different key than the sheet music you're looking at.

Note the two flat symbols to the right of the clef at the beginning of each staff? That indicates that this piece of music is in the key of B Flat, and that every instance of a B or an E in the music should be flatted (i.e., Bb or Eb) unless otherwise indicated on a local (per measure) level.

So the first measure *isn't* "F B F#", it's actually F Bb F
The second measure *isn't* "B F# E G#", it's actually Bb F Eb G
The third measure *isn't* "E B F", it's actually Eb Bb F

And the fourth measure is Eb G Bb.

Note that MOST of those discrepancies are just transpositions; you seem to be hearing it in the key of B rather than Bb, because MOST of your examples are transposed a half-step higher than the written score. The problem is that they're not literally transposed up a half-step, there are errors in what you wrote above, so either you're hearing things incorrectly or you've neglected to indicate accidentals that would confirm that you're simply hearing it in B rather than Bb.

Make sense?

[Robby Coker]

I've been learning music composition and theory for the last few years but haven't started putting songs up until the last several weeks. Currently, I have some of my tracks on youtube. Some of the songs are are ones where I was teaching myself music theory where I learned how to use different scales.

The main styles I've been doing are background and video game style music as well as some techno. I use Renoise, a tracker-style sequencer and DAW, to do the music. It's more of an advanced form of the module format, which originated back in the Amiga days. For my instruments, I use both sampled instruments and waveform synthesis using a Custom Wave Generator and PadSynth.

So, I decided put links to them for anyone learning music theory and are interested in learning the sounds of some scales and keys. In the following, I put a description below the title with a link to the song below that.

Grassland
This song is in C Major. Verses are in Ionian mode, and the chorus has more of a Mixolydian sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS95lPJpSd8

A Determined Hero
I was experimenting with maj7add9 chords, so the main chord in the verse is a maj7add9. It's in key of A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QxeVw9CoQ

Mountain Town
I learned how to improvise melodies when I did this song. It's in Bb Major.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avry2TEyCA4

Lava Caverns
This one uses mainly the Phrygian scale, but the transitions between verse and chorus are in Aeolian. It's in the key of G.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPMHEBnbEzM

Circuit Slide
I experimented with the Super Lydian Augmented scale when doing this song. The bridge mainly features it. The verses and chorus uses some major chords although the bass and lead use SLA. It's in the key of F.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAnihBRd3IU

Speedway Spin
I taught myself key changes and modulations when I did this song. It starts in D minor and modulates up through Eb, E, and F minor. It has a techno sound to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbpohvmHmvM

Foggy Forest
This one is mainly in D Harmonic Minor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YfPOxIBmPw

Saloon
I was learning the Pentatonic Blues Scale when I did this song. It has more of a funk sound to it. It's in key of E.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDFZhS5jHVk

Desert Temple
In this song, I was teaching myself the Spanish Gypsy Scale. It has a hip hop flavor to it. It's in key of E.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7z628paoQs

Party Bash
I was learning how to use the C Dorian scale in this track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OEeoO2T2RM

Black Citadel
This techno style song uses the F Phrygian scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYKuxMB2FCM

[MrMagic123]

Whats up guys ? How's everyone doing ?

Just noticed this thread so thought I would have a look and make a post, didn't really know whether to post this in this thread or the MISC Producers Gather thread, anyway here goes...

So, I am really into the idea of creating music. I currently have FL Studio 11 Producer Edition, and I absolutely love opening it up and seeing what I can create and although I can get very frustrated sometimes, I never stay off it for too long.
The problem I have though is that I have never really studied music at all. I have only looked up articles on the internet and watched youtube videos on creating music. I feel that my lack of knowledge is holding me back from creating much, much better music.

Another problem is that I never ever seem to finish a track. I will work on a certain part , melody, intro etc and then start up a new project. I believe this also has to do with my lack of knowledge about music. I have no idea where to start with EQ'in and such like. I really just feel like I am in a big hole and need some help!
Where did you guys start?

I am considering enrolling on a recording arts course in Canada ( I live in the UK but it has been an ambition of mine to live in Canada for a long time now) depending on the costs of course!