The music theory thread! For aspiring musicians and composers

[Master.D.]

Crazy how there are this many of us interested in formally studying music theory and composition. Never thought I'd come across you guys on here

[Master.D.]

I'm doing my PhD there...almost done I hope.

So John, how does the PhD work over there? Is it that system where you have credits that you have to accumulate x-amount of regardless of how long it takes?

Is a PhD rewarded as soon as your thesis is written and judged/accepted? Sorry, I am very unaware of how post-graduate study is conducted.

Forgive me

[johnsbod]

So John, how does the PhD work over there? Is it that system where you have credits that you have to accumulate x-amount of regardless of how long it takes?

Is a PhD rewarded as soon as your thesis is written and judged/accepted? Sorry, I am very unaware of how post-graduate study is conducted.

Forgive me

Roughly 3 years of coursework, qualifying exams, dissertation, and defense of the dissertation.

EDIT: I also forgot, keyboard proficiency exam and 2 language exams. I did German and French, and my minor is actually in German studies.

[Master.D.]

Roughly 3 years of coursework, qualifying exams, dissertation, and defense of the dissertation.

Alright cool cool, I hope you don't mind my inquisitorial behavior as I've mentioned I'm just very interested in furthering my studies over in the states and I'm just generally curious about this sort of thing.

Cheers

EDIT: Wow, LOTE classes as well? Is that a compulsory thing for most music-related post grad courses? Again with the questions!

[pFuzzz]

Ph.d? Musicology or Ethno?

[johnsbod]

Alright cool cool, I hope you don't mind my inquisitorial behavior as I've mentioned I'm just very interested in furthering my studies over in the states and I'm just generally curious about this sort of thing.

Cheers

EDIT: Wow, LOTE classes as well? Is that a compulsory thing for most music-related post grad courses? Again with the questions!

Yes. Most graduate degrees in music require a foreign language. On the Master's level, it's usually just one language.

Ph.d? Musicology or Ethno?

Music Theory

[pFuzzz]

Very cool. I'm just finishing my second slack off year after my BA. Can't decide between ethno, music ed, and jazz studies (arranging emphasis) for my post-graduate work.

[Bryce.MacLaren]

Hey Master D, got two questions

1) how do I incorporate scale changes during a solo. The idea i'm looking at is the solo for Opeths - "To rid the disease". I suggest trying to play the solo to see how one scale changes to another just with one note and its very very effective. How do I learn to do things like that?

2) do you know anything about transylvania scales? Apparently its what makes necro****ist solo's sound dark. What is it exactly?

[Master.D.]

Hey Master D, got two questions

1) how do I incorporate scale changes during a solo. The idea i'm looking at is the solo for Opeths - "To rid the disease". I suggest trying to play the solo to see how one scale changes to another just with one note and its very very effective. How do I learn to do things like that?

2) do you know anything about transylvania scales? Apparently its what makes necro****ist solo's sound dark. What is it exactly?

Hmm, first question is quite broad. I had a look at the solo you're talking about and basically the solo has changed to match the underlying harmony.

The chord progression moves from a recurring Em chord to a G#m out of the blue. This sort of "brute modulation", without the use of a pivot chord or even a pivot note (the melody goes G-A-G#~~, quite unpleasant when taken out of context) would generally be considered to lack any sort of flow. I wouldn't consider the move to G#m to be a modulation per se, I would consider it a typical Opeth "chromatic embellishment", and the scale that matches up with it acts in the same manner. The remainder of the chord progression hints at a Bm tonality (more brute modulation), and Mikael just seems to follow along matching up the scale with the prevailing harmony.

Err, excuse me for going off on a tangent there. In answer to "how do I learn things like that", it's difficult to prescribe a specific area of study for this. Basically all I can recommend is learning more about how chords function and what notes comprise a chord and why. Rather than focusing on a scale-orientated approach I think that learning more about chords and harmonic function and modulatory devices would be better.

The reason this solo sounds how it does is because of the chords the lie underneath it. Rather than adopt use of modes and that, it appears that Mikael has just had a listen to the chords and gone over them a bit and then just moved the same or similar scalar patterns to accommodate for the chords.

As for your second question, whilst I haven't personally heard of the Transylvania scale I will not discredit its existence. There are a plethora of synthetic scales out there and it seems these days that every country is getting its own "scale" . However as to the claim that Muhammed uses them, I think that's a bit rich. Most of Necro****ist scales are comprised of grandiose arpeggios (minor and/or diminished) and whole tone or whole-half (etc) scalar runs.

However, for all I personally know, the Transylvania scale is some weird form of whole-half scale or something bizarre like that. I will still stick to my belief that Necro haven't specifically "used it to make their music sound dark."

[spherenine]

Yeah, they are definitely going to B minor there, although it starts in E minor. I also agree that the move to G# minor is not really a modulation so much as a chromatic chord. All the lead is doing is switching from the E minor scale to the G# minor scale. What makes it have that particular sound is that they hit a note (G#) that fits only into G# minor (there is no G# in E minor) as soon as the G#m chord arrives, demonstrating a sort of "awareness" on the guitarist's part.

In terms of working on this sort of thing in your own improvisations, start by playing over a simple two-chord vamp with a slow harmonic rhythm, and use a different scale for each chord. For example, if your vamp is Am to Em, you could use Am pentatonic over the Am and Em pentatonic over the Em. You'll probably start by jumping seven frets between position, but after a while you'll be able to play several scales in one spot, or over the entire neck (e.g., playing both Am pentatonic and Em pentatonic scales at the 12th fret).

With experience, you can make it more difficult through a variety of methods, such as increasing the harmonic rhythm, using more unrelated scales, and lengthening the vamp to include several chords (e.g., Am-Dm-G-C-F-Bdim-E7). You can also make an effort to highlight the notes that change in each chord-scale relationship. For example, in the Opeth tune, the harmony changes from Em to G#m. If you're using the E natural minor scale over the Em and the G# natural minor scale over the G#m, the scales will be as follows:

Em: E F# G A B C D E
G#m: G# A# B C# D# E F# G

Em has the notes G, A, C, and D, which G# minor does not have, and G# minor has the notes G#, A#, C#, and D#, which E minor does not have. Both scales contain E, B, and F#. A skilled soloist can either emphasize or de-emphasize certain notes to achieve a particular sound.

[Master.D.]

Yeah, probably a bit more of an elaborate answer there .

[Danthesaxman]

Good info from spherenine and Master D.

I won't go into the theory part of it, what pFuzzz gave you seems adequate and I'm not at all familiar with the music in question.

However, I counter your questions with a question: Is there a guitar/instrumental solo on the recording of the tune in question?

If there is, learn to play along with it. You will get more out of this 'simple' act of transcription than jumping in and thrashing about with a little harmonic knowledge. As an added bonus, learning to play what is on the recording will help you to understand what is happening harmonically and melodically, so that when you create your own solo you have a great starting point.

[Master.D.]

Ugh, stuck in another compositional rut .

[pFuzzz]

When that happens to me, I dig a score out of the pile and start analyzing until I find a cool set of changes...or open up the Real Book and write a contrafact on an existing progression intentionally trying to work in some exotic scale or something...Whatever I come up with right then might be rubbish, but I find it gets the creative juices going.

[Mr Bounce]

When that happens to me, I dig a score out of the pile and start analyzing until I find a cool set of changes...or open up the Real Book and write a contrafact on an existing progression intentionally trying to work in some exotic scale or something...Whatever I come up with right then might be rubbish, but I find it gets the creative juices going.

That's good advice. Some people might say you are imitating but if a writer can find inspiration from a book, why can't a composer find inspiration from other works of music?

[Master.D.]

Problem is I'm at this stage where I'm extremely particular about my compositions - to the point where its restricting me. Without getting into too much detail (I'm tired and homework haha), I wrote this up on young composers forum:

Hey guys,

Will make this nice and quick since I won't bore you with the details unless you ask specifically, heh.

Does anyone here suffer from OCD in a way that affects their compositional ability? I find my compositions restricted immensely by this fact, to a point where it discourages me from composing whatsoever.. not good considering I just started my Bachelor's degree in music composition!

A few quick examples for your interest will come tomorrow seeing as I'm having a bit of a mental blank at the moment, but hopefully you will have a grasp of what I'm referring to. To an extent, it's fairly plain stuff that I restrict myself from doing, but at that extent this is what makes it so difficult.

I love the theories of contemporary music and want to compose in this style later in life but at the rate I'm going now I don't think I could ever physically bring myself to compose it?

What do you guys think about this matter? Do you feel that over time these thoughts will just subside - especially if I continuously expose myself to the teachings of music? That's what I'm hoping for at the moment.

Any input would be appreciate.. sorry if it reads as being rushed, however suffice to say it was written in a rush .

Cheers,
Gav

[Master.D.]

So, I'm working on a song now. I've decided to put aside any delusions of flare or compositional grandeur and just write something that is tonal, I-IV-V style composition almost entirely note-for-note (first species).

I've got it and I like it, but I can't help but think it is too identical to another song! I can't quite pick it though.. does this ring any bells to anyone?


Slow:
4/4: | I / / / | IVc / I / | Vb / / / | I / Id / | vi / / / |

Sorry for the illegibility and archaic inversion-notating method .. hopefully you get the jist. I know the chord progression is fairly generic but this actually sounds exactly like something and I'm not sure if my mind is playing tricks on me or not.

[Mr Bounce]

So, I'm working on a song now. I've decided to put aside any delusions of flare or compositional grandeur and just write something that is tonal, I-IV-V style composition almost entirely note-for-note (first species).

I've got it and I like it, but I can't help but think it is too identical to another song! I can't quite pick it though.. does this ring any bells to anyone?


Slow:
4/4: | I / / / | IVc / I / | Vb / / / | I / Id / | vi / / / |

Sorry for the illegibility and archaic inversion-notating method .. hopefully you get the jist. I know the chord progression is fairly generic but this actually sounds exactly like something and I'm not sure if my mind is playing tricks on me or not.

b = 2nd inversion
c = 3rd inversion
d = ?

Doesn't sound like particular song to me brah, just sounds like a conventional hymn/pop song.

[Master.D.]

b = 2nd inversion
c = 3rd inversion
d = ?

Doesn't sound like particular song to me brah, just sounds like a conventional hymn/pop song.

Hmm.. when I was taught I was told that b is 1st inversion and c is 2nd which would make d 3rd inversion?

I think the melody plays a part (no pun intended) in making it sound like something else but I really can't be bothered putting it up at the moment haha.

[Mr Bounce]

Hmm.. when I was taught I was told that b is 1st inversion and c is 2nd which would make d 3rd inversion?

I think the melody plays a part (no pun intended) in making it sound like something else but I really can't be bothered putting it up at the moment haha.

Rings a bell actually, I can't really remember so I just thought, a must be 2nd because if it is 1st then it's kinda redundant isn't it?


But back to the main point, why so much pain when you compose?

[Master.D.]

But back to the main point, why so much pain when you compose?

If you told me then we'd both know .

[Mr Bounce]

If you told me then we'd both know .

Fair enough

[johnsbod]

Rings a bell actually, I can't really remember so I just thought, a must be 2nd because if it is 1st then it's kinda redundant isn't it?


But back to the main point, why so much pain when you compose?

No, because a root position chord is not inverted.

root position
first inversion
second inversion
third inversion



Master D, why the letter system for inversions? Numbers are much more specific.

FYI, that I7 chord you have (Id) is really a I with a passing tone in the bass if you're going to a vi.

[Master.D.]

Master D, why the letter system for inversions? Numbers are much more specific.

FYI, that I7 chord you have (Id) is really a I with a passing tone in the bass if you're going to a vi.

To be honest, I only used it in that context up there because I thought it would make it look less clustered. Since I opted for trying to convey the piece through text rather than screen-capping the notation I thought it would get a little messy considering I would be using "6/4" rather than being able to include sub/superscript numbers .

Also just to save my butt (), I would never notate it as Id or I4/2 in real life but I found it necessary to include it as I consider it an important part of the composition that makes it sound like it has been "borrowed" from something else hah.

In other news, just sat the last of my exams for this semester had harmony today which went alright. Seven weeks off, I won't know what to do with myself!

[Danthesaxman]

I think I've been a performance major too long... I'm writing a paper for my Second Viennese School class right now, and my writing process has completely disintegrated.

It's been a great class, but I'm more than ready for it to be summer.

[Master.D.]

So, I'm slowly stretching into the realms of non-traditional harmony now - finally.

Now when I say slowly, I mean slowly. Currently floating around very early 20th century/late 19th century Russian composers.. bit of Impressionist music as well.

Any suggestions?

[Infusco]

So, I'm slowly stretching into the realms of non-traditional harmony now - finally.

Now when I say slowly, I mean slowly. Currently floating around very early 20th century/late 19th century Russian composers.. bit of Impressionist music as well.

Any suggestions?

hay dood i think you accidentally posted this question in the bb.com tab instead of the youngcomposers one.

seriously* though in response to your question i'd suggest a 5x5 program with about 4k cals a day.
















*that was a lie.

no but really i'll give you my awesome suggestions over msn.

[Master.D.]

[ehlpitel]

That guy Willith is such a douchebag.

Wow.

[Master.D.]

I got a silly little trivial question for you brahs that I've been wondering:

Say you have two notes and you want to put a slur connecting them, if the first note is tied do you draw the slur from the tied note or the first note? =/